Bus lane enforcement

markpb

Does anyone know if the city councils in Dublin ever considered using CCTV to enforce bus lanes and issue fines? Apart from it being a huge benefit to bus passengers, it might even make a little money to pay for the hardware to make it work.

Ham'nd'egger

markpb wrote:

Does anyone know if the city councils in Dublin ever considered using CCTV to enforce bus lanes and issue fines? Apart from it being a huge benefit to bus passengers, it might even make a little money to pay for the hardware to make it work.

They have camera monitoring of the lane on the M 1 in Belfast AFAIK and it seems to work quite well. I'd feel it is worth a pilot scheme somewhere in Dublin.

trout

Hamndegger wrote:

I'd feel it is worth a pilot scheme somewhere in Dublin.

seconded ... might i suggest starting with the coast road from the kinara restaurant to the alfie byrne road ?

it's a real pain in ass watching the cheats zoom by while honest punters are queueing for up to 15 minutes to travel one mile :mad:

fletch

trout wrote:

seconded ... might i suggest starting with the coast road from the kinara restaurant to the alfie byrne road ?

it's a real pain in ass watching the cheats zoom by while honest punters are queueing for up to 15 minutes to travel one mile :mad:

With the fine only being €60 (source) and the chances of being caught so minimal, it's nearly worth the risk.
Putting cameras on the lanes would be an excellent idea!

TheMonster

fletch wrote:

With the fine only being €60 (source) and the chances of being caught so minimal, it's nearly worth the risk.
Putting cameras on the lanes would be an excellent idea!

I thought they were also giving points now(assume for not obeying road markings)

markpb

The chances of being caught in a bus lane, even during Christmas, is so slim that it's well worth driving in bus lanes. I'm surprised more people don't do it.

rubadub

Camera is a brilliant idea. A stupid cop walked right out infront of me today on a cycle track to stop a car in the lane, nearly hit the idiot. It holds up all the legitimate traffic behind, clogs up the bus lane and takes up police time, it takes a good while for them to get all the details etc. Meanwhile they have 3-4 cars pulled in onto the cycle track, illegally parked, and cyclists are the ones who lose out. If there was a camera somebody would be in an office typing in reg number and it would all be automated, none of this time wasting.

Why I hate even more is the cops who let people break the law "a little", i.e. the person in the car will cross the white line but will do it about 10-20 yards before they are meant to, they do not stop them! yet other law abiding motorists in front cannot turn in because these guys pulled in illegally.

Also many people just look for the cops in the usual spots, if they are not there they drive in.

AlekSmart

I am open to stern correction on this but my understanding is that certain "Legal Difficulties" surround the use of fixed cameras for such offences as Bus Lane or Directional Sign infringements.

It appears to centre on the reluctance of the Judiciary to accept such automacially generated photo images.
This reluctance can,seemingly,be down to an individual Judge`s dislike of such avant-garde stuff as Flash Photography.

Certainly if Junction Monitoring Camera`s were introduced it would make a huge contribution to general lane discipline and observance of directional signage (The NO Right Turn Ban from St Mobhi Rd into Home Farm Road spring to mind immediately).

Sadly in the matter of Road Safety as well as Criminal Law it may well be some form of serious Cull of senior Judicial Figures will be required in order to save lives.

markpb

Having read up on this a little (Bus lane resource pack from DfT is very handy), it seems in England that they had the same problem until driving in bus lanes was changed from a criminal to a civil offense, allowing the city council to impose fines themselves instead of asking the police to enforce it.

Also, they use a system that allows the officer to see the entire situation and decide whether the driver was in the lane for a good reason, for example letting an emergency services vehicle through.

markpb

I got a reply from DoT about this today (a mere 2 weeks late)

I refer to your recent e-mail dated 3rd January 2007 regarding the enforcement of bus lane compliance.

The position in relation to this matter is that Section 21, as amended of the Road Traffic Act 2002 allows for the electronic detection of road traffic offences. Decisions in relation to the use of electronic equipment for the detection of Road Traffic Offences including the offences relating to bus lanes usage is a matter for Dublin City Council and the Gardaí.

All offences created by the Road Traffic Acts are classified as being criminal and in that context every person accused of the commission of any one of those offences must be taken before the District Court to answer the charge or accusation made by the Gardaí or a Local Authority Traffic Warden. The Road Traffic offence of entering a bus lane with a vehicle other than those permitted to do so, comes within the fixed charge system. That system offers each person accused of an offence the alternative of paying a fixed charge thereby avoiding the prospect of a court hearing. There are no plans to alter this position.

Ho hum.... so it is possible to use traffic cameras although Alex Smart is probably right about judges having personal quibbles about trusting them. Someone would have to foot the bill for it, probably DCC who wouldn't be able to use the English trick of having the system pay for itself.

Victor

markpb wrote:

Ho hum.... so it is possible to use traffic cameras although Alex Smart is probably right about judges having personal quibbles about trusting them. Someone would have to foot the bill for it, probably DCC who wouldn't be able to use the English trick of having the system pay for itself.

Judges are generally accepting video / digital evidence these days, once it is accompanies by an affidavit.

corktina

there would need to be proof of the time of the offence recorded, as most bus lanes are peak hour only...something noone in Cork except me seems to know.....:D I feel like the guy in the crunchy nut lane most of the time and I love the glares you get as you sail on by the queue

godtabh

corktina wrote:

there would need to be proof of the time of the offence recorded, as most bus lanes are peak hour only

CCTV cameras generally record the time too

The Swordsman

markpb wrote:

Having read up on this a little (Bus lane resource pack from DfT is very handy), it seems in England that they had the same problem until driving in bus lanes was changed from a criminal to a civil offense, allowing the city council to impose fines themselves instead of asking the police to enforce it.

Also, they use a system that allows the officer to see the entire situation and decide whether the driver was in the lane for a good reason, for example letting an emergency services vehicle through.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as common sense and people will get done for the smallest thing. I once saw a guy getting a parking ticket because the back of his car (not the wheels) was over the back line of the space and technically over the double yellow.

There is a piece of a bus lane on the Drumcondra Road, just before Richmond Road where if you want to turn left onto Richmond Road, you have very little choice but to go into the bus lane.

Unfortunately, though Bus Lanes are designed to give buses a free flow (v good thing), they sometimes delay other traffic unneccesarily. On many occasions, I have been stuck waiting in traffic waiting for the end of a bus lane so I could take the next turn left and there wouldn't be a bus for miles.

markpb

The Swordsman wrote:

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as common sense and people will get done for the smallest thing. I once saw a guy getting a parking ticket because the back of his car (not the wheels) was over the back line of the space and technically over the double yellow.

Under the system proposed by the DoT, if you want to question the fine you can take it to court. You can't get much fairer than that.

There is a piece of a bus lane on the Drumcondra Road, just before Richmond Road where if you want to turn left onto Richmond Road, you have very little choice but to go into the bus lane.

Unfortunately, though Bus Lanes are designed to give buses a free flow (v good thing), they sometimes delay other traffic unneccesarily. On many occasions, I have been stuck waiting in traffic waiting for the end of a bus lane so I could take the next turn left and there wouldn't be a bus for miles.

There are loads of places where this happens all over Dublin and it works both ways. Cars will sit (legally) at the start or end of the bus lane and block the buses. People further downstream see an empty bus lane and don't realise its because of cars in the lane.

Ste.phen

markpb wrote:

There are loads of places where this happens all over Dublin and it works both ways. Cars will sit (legally) at the start or end of the bus lane and block the buses. People further downstream see an empty bus lane and don't realise its because of cars in the lane.

Swords Road / Iveragh Road being a great example of this.

Unfortunately the pic was taken when traffic was light, but it's usualyl fairly apparent when the buses are being blocked by cars trying to merge into the car lane.
http://maps.google.com/?z=17&ll=53.380964,-6.245781&spn=0.002624,0.013379&t=h&om=1

The Swordsman

markpb wrote:

Under the system proposed by the DoT, if you want to question the fine you can take it to court. You can't get much fairer than that.

You can. Some common sense should be used and not put someone through the hassle.

markpb wrote:

There are loads of places where this happens all over Dublin and it works both ways. Cars will sit (legally) at the start or end of the bus lane and block the buses. People further downstream see an empty bus lane and don't realise its because of cars in the lane.

If there are no buses in the bus lane, for whatever reason, what is the harm of a car driving into it to turn left providing, of course, that he doesn't block the bus lane.

markpb

The Swordsman wrote:

You can. Some common sense should be used and not put someone through the hassle.

I'm lost... are you suggesting that since there is the potential for abuse and/or pedenticism, it should be disregarded completely? The current system doesn't work because its unenforceable.

If such a system were in place, the people running it would be responsible to DCC (who are, at least, partially politically accountable) and to the judges if the cases are brought to court.

If there are no buses in the bus lane, for whatever reason, what is the harm of a car driving into it to turn left providing, of course, that he doesn't block the bus lane.

Because people will take chances, jump into a lane, get caught and hold up a bus because they didn't make it through the lights. Because right now people *do* move into bus lanes far in advance of their junctions and they hold up buses all the time.

The Swordsman

markpb wrote:

I'm lost... are you suggesting that since there is the potential for abuse and/or pedenticism, it should be disregarded completely? The current system doesn't work because its unenforceable.

If such a system were in place, the people running it would be responsible to DCC (who are, at least, partially politically accountable) and to the judges if the cases are brought to court.

Not suggesting that for one second. Anyone blatantly abusing bus lanes should have the book thrown at them.

You yourself gave a good example earlier in the thread. I'm sure a person letting an ambulance through would feel aggrieved if they had to go to court to explain why they were in the bus lane.

markpb wrote:

Because people will take chances, jump into a lane, get caught and hold up a bus because they didn't make it through the lights. Because right now people *do* move into bus lanes far in advance of their junctions and they hold up buses all the time.

Common sense would also tell you that these people were taking the p***.

markpb

The Swordsman wrote:

You yourself gave a good example earlier in the thread. I'm sure a person letting an ambulance through would feel aggrieved if they had to go to court to explain why they were in the bus lane.

Ah... we're not arguing, I just didn't explain myself properly. The way I'd like to see it happening is something akin to London:

The CCTV operator reviews all recorded offences. A supervisor then rechecks all offences to make sure an actual offence has occurred and that there wasn't a valid reason for the offence. As part of this, CCTV coverage before and after the incident occurred are checked. If the incident is still deemed illegal, a PCN is issued to the registered other of the vehicle. [...] The London Parking Appeals Service deals with any appeals.

Obviously the last part would have to be done by the courts in Ireland but the rest it seems fair enough to me.

Both Dublin Bus and the QBC office in Dublin claimed that CCTV cannot be used for enforcement of bus lanes so I forwarded the reply from DoT onto them to see what they say. I'm not expecting much but we'll see.

AlekSmart

WEll done Markpb....The Dublin Bus/City Council responses to you are sadly somewhat typical of the inertia ridden culture inherent in both bodies.

The real issue however,is why NONE of these august responsible bodies has not PROPERLY evaluated the CCTV monitoring before this.

Its one thing being a customer of the undertakings but its a different kettle of fish when you also have to do their R + D for them too !!!!

And to expand this thread a little.........Has anybody noticed a significant alteration in Bus Lane arrangements to facilitate left turns for general traffic.

There are now several rather glaring examples of what appears to be a new policy in effect.
In the old order of things the Bus Lane would end somewhat short of a left turn,for example The Dorset St/North Circular Road junction.
The road markings would usually show a LEFT TURN ONLY directional arrow acccompanied by a textual exemption for Buses.
This was little more than common sense and essentially allowed Buses to remain in their lane to progerss back into their Bus Lane just aft of the junction.

HOWEVER there is now a worrying development whereby newly resurfaced junctions are having the relevant white arrows repainted but WITHOUT the Buses Excepted script.

The latest example of this is at the Blackrock Clinic (Inbound) where Buses must now leave the Buslane for a short stretch before making another sharp manouvere to return to the lane immediately after the clinic gate.

If there has been a change in central policy then let this be shouted from the rooftops rather than simply delete the written element and say nothing.

The scale of this type of ineptitude is becoming scary and more worrying as it appears to cross all council boundaries,which makes me think it`s some form of new central policy.....But then again we don`t DO policy in this republic...do we..??

shltter

markpb wrote:

I got a reply from DoT about this today (a mere 2 weeks late)



Ho hum.... so it is possible to use traffic cameras although Alex Smart is probably right about judges having personal quibbles about trusting them. Someone would have to foot the bill for it, probably DCC who wouldn't be able to use the English trick of having the system pay for itself.

Of course all DB buses are fitted with a camera on the front facing outwards.

So they already have 1000 mobile CCTVs systems out there however they could probably not use them as they belong to DB rather than the local Authority or the Gardai.
Seems like an awful waste to have to install fixed cameras when those are there and the added benefit is that they would only catch the people who are actually holding up the buses unlike the fixed camera which would catch people only in certain places and irrespective of whether they were causing any delay like at 3 in the morning.
Also with fixed cameras like fixed speed cameras those who want to would learn the locations and nip out and back in once past the camera.

And finally the Government do not really take bus lane enforcement in any way seriously if they were really serious about keeping people out of the bus lanes then 1 penalty point per offence would knock it on the head fairly quickly.
But as someone already said the chances of getting caught and then the fact that it is only a fine means people don't give a ****

Victor

Thats a screw up.

The way it was originally was bus lanes stopped short of the junction, allowing all traffic to use all lanes. This was changed to the bus lane continuing to the stop line with an exemption for left turning traffic on the last section.

AlekSmart

Indeed true Viktor...HOWEVER something`s cooking in that particular kitchen too !!

In many of these locations as the white-lining crews have been around to touch-up the Except Buses Text has been omitted.......Deliberate ?...Change of Policy..? ....Who Knows,but it now presents both Busdrivers and general traffic with a considerably more dangerous scenario.

For example take a peep at the new Rock Road QBC ( :rolleyes: ) where the Blackrock Clinic entrance is very clearly lane marked LEFT TURN ONLY on the inbound side,

Unless the Busdriver fancies a couple of PP`s for failing to observe statutory Road Markings he/she MUST pull over to the right hand General Traffic lane whilst going past the Clinic Entrance,only of course to swerve hard left to re-enter the "QBC" 10 metres further on.

This obliteration of Bus Priority appears to be some new form of policy Jim,but not one we are familiar with !! :cool:

Victor

What is the lane marking at this point?

markpb

shltter wrote:

Of course all DB buses are fitted with a camera on the front facing outwards.So they already have 1000 mobile CCTVs systems out there however they could probably not use them as they belong to DB rather than the local Authority or the Gardai. Seems like an awful waste to have to install fixed cameras when those are there and the added benefit is that they would only catch the people who are actually holding up the buses unlike the fixed camera which would catch people only in certain places and irrespective of whether they were causing any delay like at 3 in the morning. Also with fixed cameras like fixed speed cameras those who want to would learn the locations and nip out and back in once past the camera.

We had this discussion right here a few months ago

I'd be all in favour of DB doing the policing (self interest and all that not to mention better coverage and a better change of actually having line of sight to the reg plate) but to be honest I can't see DCC and DB bothering to talk to each other long enough to find a way to do it. This coming from the same people who insisted it wasn't allowed by law and never bothered to check with DoT if they were right

On the other hand, let's assume it does get the go ahead - how would it work? Someone reviews the cameras at a later date or the driver has some way of noting the time when he sees someone in the lane and reports it at end of shift?

And finally the Government do not really take bus lane enforcement in any way seriously if they were really serious about keeping people out of the bus lanes then 1 penalty point per offence would knock it on the head fairly quickly. But as someone already said the chances of getting caught and then the fact that it is only a fine means people don't give a ****

That was me and yes, you're right. They don't care. I get the impression from mailing the QBC office that their budget is extremely limited (its all big bang projects, no small fix ups at particular points) so between that and the gardai not having the resources to police the lanes, we're going nowhere.