i think i got JJ all wrong.

ditpoker

Sporting Emporium, wednesday scalps game. This hand has been at me...
i'm in the cutoff with approx 5000 chips and i've already used my only rebuy (don't ask).
villain to my right has me just covered and has been playing fairly aggressive and is in alot of pots preflop, winning alot of pots uncontested on the flop but the tourney is only about 40mins old.

blinds are 50-100, there's a limper and villain limps., i make it 500 to go with JJ. both blinds and limper folds, villain calls. (pot 1250)
flop comes down Kh,Ah,Ad. villain bets out 500 immediately and i start to have a little think...
i don't think he's leading here with an ace, maybe a flush draw or the king. maybe an underpair? i decide i have to ask the question
i raise it to 1500, leaving myself with approx 3k behind (comments? i think this prices in a flush draw and seems a bit weak looking back on it)

back to the villain who doesn't push but re-raises my exact stack (i know it is effectively the same but i consider a push to be stronger than the exact stack raise)... back to me and i......!??!?!?!??!?!

sikes

a call on the flop is alot scarier, but fold now

delanec8

Fold now. You have made your hand look really big and villian has to believe you are committed so he isnt doing this very often without having you beat.

I dont mind your raise on the flop. His hand looks like a K and is asking to be pushed off it. Of course this depends on whether he would lay a K down or not.

bops

yuk yuk yuk yuk !!!!

I suppose you gotta call and hope he has a FD

You sorta committed yourself with the reraise - it aint a bad bet imo - maybe just bad timing!!


...say he has a K and bets the flop 500
If you want to rep the A just call, and re-evaluate on the turn - no?

Goodluck2me

when you asked the question, you got your response. fold.

Hitman Actual

ditpoker wrote:

i raise it to 1500, leaving myself with approx 3k behind (comments? i think this prices in a flush draw and seems a bit weak looking back on it)

I don't get this bit, how are you pricing in a FD? Implied odds for him to push?

Also, a FD is less likely seeing as both the ace and king are out there.

I prefer a flat call on the flop, as it should slow him right down and you have a better chance of getting the hand to show-down (relatively) cheaply. Your raise definately doesn't look like an Ace to him, so he could be pushing with some hands you beat (77-TT) if he's as aggressive as you make him out to be.

When he pushes now, do you think he's the type of player that will 'protect' trip Aces against a FD? And what range of kings does he call pre-flop with (just how loose is he?). I think it's a fold now, but I really think calling the flop is better.

ditpoker

i'm not so much concerned about the actual outcome of this hand, more so how i played it and how i should play this situation in the future.

result:

i folded, and showed JJ, the villain flipped over 7d3d for 7high, no flush draw, stone cold bluff. I tapped the table and said nice hand, villain then went on to explain to the table how badly i played the hand etc etc cos he was such a charming nice fellow afterall! (love his preflop call too!)

but i think in this situation, in future a call is maybe the best play on the flop, but then what do i do on the turn, he bets at a blank, do i call? he checks, i check? he checks i bet, he reraises? this is why im not sure about my flop re-raise, i find out what i want to know there, and i end my interest there, if i flat call and he bets 500 again on the turn, i have to call i think. Then he bets 500 again on the river, i call and if he shows a king im down a min 1500 anyway to get to the river? ignoring the actual result - cos i think more often than not it wont happen - i'm just not sure the optimum line on this hand... maybe not JJ with a AAK flop, but even TT on a QQJ flop or whatever, basically the semi strong under pair on a messy flop... i'm confused!

sikes

he wont continue on the turn without a hand that beats you. if he checks the turn, check behind.

rag2gar

ditpoker wrote:

i'm not so much concerned about the actual outcome of this hand, more so how i played it and how i should play this situation in the future.

result:

i folded, and showed JJ, the villain flipped over 7d3d for 7high, no flush draw, stone cold bluff. I tapped the table and said nice hand, villain then went on to explain to the table how badly i played the hand etc etc cos he was such a charming nice fellow afterall! (love his preflop call too!)

but i think in this situation, in future a call is maybe the best play on the flop, but then what do i do on the turn, he bets at a blank, do i call? he checks, i check? he checks i bet, he reraises? this is why im not sure about my flop re-raise, i find out what i want to know there, and i end my interest there, if i flat call and he bets 500 again on the turn, i have to call i think. Then he bets 500 again on the river, i call and if he shows a king im down a min 1500 anyway to get to the river? ignoring the actual result - cos i think more often than not it wont happen - i'm just not sure the optimum line on this hand... maybe not JJ with a AAK flop, but even TT on a QQJ flop or whatever, basically the semi strong under pair on a messy flop... i'm confused!

He just an arse-hole who'll never win a tournament, u wont see him in 6 months time imho

ianmc38

ditpoker wrote:

i'm not so much concerned about the actual outcome of this hand, more so how i played it and how i should play this situation in the future.

result:

i folded, and showed JJ, the villain flipped over 7d3d for 7high, no flush draw, stone cold bluff. I tapped the table and said nice hand, villain then went on to explain to the table how badly i played the hand etc etc cos he was such a charming nice fellow afterall! (love his preflop call too!)

but i think in this situation, in future a call is maybe the best play on the flop, but then what do i do on the turn, he bets at a blank, do i call? he checks, i check? he checks i bet, he reraises? this is why im not sure about my flop re-raise, i find out what i want to know there, and i end my interest there, if i flat call and he bets 500 again on the turn, i have to call i think. Then he bets 500 again on the river, i call and if he shows a king im down a min 1500 anyway to get to the river? ignoring the actual result - cos i think more often than not it wont happen - i'm just not sure the optimum line on this hand... maybe not JJ with a AAK flop, but even TT on a QQJ flop or whatever, basically the semi strong under pair on a messy flop... i'm confused!

Pwned

Hitman Actual

ditpoker wrote:

i'm just not sure the optimum line on this hand... maybe not JJ with a AAK flop, but even TT on a QQJ flop or whatever, basically the semi strong under pair on a messy flop... i'm confused!

Player dependant, obviously. But this guy is your typical Gus Hansen wannabe who thinks it's all about making big bluffs or big trapping plays. So he rarely has an ace here, and you'll often be ahead. If you call the flop bet, he's worried that you're trapping with an Ace (thats his mindset). The turn usually goes check-check, but sometimes he'll take another stab at it on the river, to prove what a poker legend he is. So by just calling the flop bet you get to showdown at effectively the same cost as making the flop raise, but in a much more profitable way.

Anyway, stick this guy on your live buddly list; you'll make a lot of money off these 'legends' in the long run.

eoghan104

I was in seat 5 when this happened. Your man was a bit of a wild player allright but not a donkey. I think the only thing u did wrong was not pushing on the flop to put him to the test. the fact you left 3k behind made it look like you left that behind in order to be able to fold. The bet did look weak and i dont think he played the hand to bad!

Lets be honest if anyone here pulled off this bluff theyd be told how great a move it was!

the guy shudnt have said you played the hand bad and was acting like a dick...... in fairness though its a nice bluff. He just showed his bluffs too often like he was a big legend for making a bluff. That always pisses me off. Hard luck anyway!

ianmc38

eoghan104 wrote:

I think the only thing u did wrong was not pushing on the flop to put him to the test.

I dont like that thinking. Pushing on the flop achieves nothing other than get him to call with any ace, some kings and fold all bluffs.

A cold call will look way scarier to him.

Hitman Actual

eoghan104 wrote:

I think the only thing u did wrong was not pushing on the flop to put him to the test.

The only merits to this are that he might fold a king, and I can't see him doing that as he'd expect you to call with an Ace. But he also folds all his bluffs and lower pair hands. And calls you with an Ace, and often a king.

eoghan104

ianmc38 wrote:

I dont like that thinking. Pushing on the flop achieves nothing other than get him to call with any ace, some kings and fold all bluffs.

A cold call will look way scarier to him.

yeh thats true what i meant really was that just raising so small shows weakness and i think a push is better but a call is optimal.

Either way though if you call what do you do when he leads a blank turn?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

eoghan104

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Most players won't without an A. If he does, the pot is small enough that we can call to the river if we feel we are ahead unless he overbets the pot.

well if he bets the pot on the turn then if we call were committed to the pot.

my point is if we feel we are ahead on the flop why not push then? if were comfortable were ahead then is all the money not going in anyway? is it not better to get it in early when theres a chance he will fold a king?

ianmc38

eoghan104 wrote:

well if he bets the pot on the turn then if we call were committed to the pot.

my point is if we feel we are ahead on the flop why not push then? if were comfortable were ahead then is all the money not going in anyway? is it not better to get it in early when theres a chance he will fold a king?

In my experience, most players will check the turn and river with a king. Also any other pocket pair will do the same.

ntlbell

I'm interested to know what people put a fairly aggro player on here when we haven't seen him show down a hand yet.

What hand calls in EP after an EP limper, calls a 5XBB raise OOP that doesn't re-raise pre-flop?

Iago

Preflop you min-raised which imho horrible with JJ. I'm making it at least 800 here.

On the flop villian has limped, called your raise and then bet out in front of a preflop raiser, I fold JJ here and kick myself for not raising more preflop.

that's as far as I get in the hand tbh, I think your raise on the flop is just throwing good money after bad.

ntlbell

Iago wrote:

Preflop you min-raised which imho horrible with JJ. I'm making it at least 800 here.

On the flop villian has limped, called your raise and then bet out in front of a preflop raiser, I fold JJ here and kick myself for not raising more preflop.

that's as far as I get in the hand tbh, I think your raise on the flop is just throwing good money after bad.

min raised?

he made it 5 X BB

Iago

ntlbell wrote:

min raised?

he made it 5 X BB

He made it 500 when there was already 350 in there. Maybe min-raise isn't the term I should of used, but it's not enough of a raise with JJ with X number of players to act and two limpers already in the pot.

If that's the line he's taking then he's better off limping and hoping for a set because he's pricing in the limpers with any reasonable holding.

ditpoker

Iago wrote:

Preflop you min-raised which imho horrible with JJ. I'm making it at least 800 here.

blinds 50-100, i raise to 500... not a min raise with JJ.

i think my re-raise to 1500 looked very weak but i think iot sthe type of bet that works alot in smaller games, say the jackpot 20 or the se 50. i think i underestimated my opponent here in think that 'surely he'd only re-re-raise with the goods'. you did get people raising with complete muck in the smaller games in my experience.

eoghan104 wrote:

I was in seat 5 when this happened. Your man was a bit of a wild player allright but not a donkey. I think the only thing u did wrong was not pushing on the flop to put him to the test. the fact you left 3k behind made it look like you left that behind in order to be able to fold. The bet did look weak and i dont think he played the hand to bad!

i thought that was you but not 100% sure. you were playing well (something i wasnt doing) and you seemed to be owning the table from what i could tell, how'd you finish? I don't think the guy was a donkey, he was an aggressive player though, had i thoguht the hand through more (or even properly) i think what i'd have done was either muck my JJ to the 500 raise and end it there, or if i'm going to re-raise it to 1500 be preprepared to beat him into the pot if he reraises me, something i didnt do yesterday. i acknowledgedd what was a wonderful bluff but instantly regretted it as he explained to the table where i'd gone wrong and how great a play he had made, he immediately went onto my mental d**khead list!

cardshark202

This guy is not a good player at all. He limped 73 in EP.

eoghan104

[/QUOTE]i thought that was you but not 100% sure. you were playing well (something i wasnt doing) and you seemed to be owning the table from what i could tell, how'd you finish? I don't think the guy was a donkey, he was an aggressive player though, had i thoguht the hand through more (or even properly) i think what i'd have done was either muck my JJ to the 500 raise and end it there, or if i'm going to re-raise it to 1500 be preprepared to beat him into the pot if he reraises me, something i didnt do yesterday. i acknowledgedd what was a wonderful bluff but instantly regretted it as he explained to the table where i'd gone wrong and how great a play he had made, he immediately went onto my mental d**khead list![/QUOTE]

Yeh he was a dick about it. I hate these players that slam down a bluff after you fold thinking they should be playing the big game in the bellagio!! He was doin it every time he bluffed aswell!!! You were just unlucky and should have trusted your read on the flop. Not the end of the world. That guy won a massive pot hitting a flush on the turn after getting all his money in on the flop against an overpair.

I went out about 20th in the 300/600 level. I called a raise to 1600 from the BB with 33 and so did four others. There was 9000 in the pot and i had about 5k behind. Flop came 345 two diamonds so i pushed and got called in two places with one of them all in herself for about 3000 and the other was the villain from your hand.

the lady (vera) had KJd and the other lad had 22......... I needed to avoid any ace or diamond...... what was the turn???? yep the big fat Ace of Diamonds!!!!!!!!!

If my hand holds up there im up to over 20k and cruising!! Ah well thats life! Great tournament i must say and my god those dealers are tremendous!!!! I dunno where they get them! If only Irish girls looked like that!!!!!

ianmc38

eoghan104 wrote:

I went out about 20th in the 300/600 level. I called a raise to 1600 from the BB with 33 and so did four others. i had about 5k behind.

Calling off 25% of your stack for set value preflop is pretty bad. Push or fold.

eoghan104

ianmc38 wrote:

Calling off 25% of your stack for set value preflop is pretty bad. Push or fold.

I know i dunno why i didnt just push.......... poor play!

ianmc38

eoghan104 wrote:

I know i dunno why i didnt just push.......... poor play!

I'm surprised cos I've played with you before and I certainly couldn't imagine you making a call like that....

ditpoker

eoghan104 wrote:

my god those dealers are tremendous!!!! I dunno where they get them! If only Irish girls looked like that!!!!!

favourite has got to be michelle!

eoghan104

ianmc38 wrote:

I'm surprised cos I've played with you before and I certainly couldn't imagine you making a call like that....

i know it was a rush of blood to the head ( or lack of ) i just like to limp with small pairs but i didnt think about my small stack and the fact that it was 17% of my stack to call! ah well its done now!

eoghan104

ditpoker wrote:

favourite has got to be michelle!

How about kate though that was dealing for us at the start last night?? she is splendid! I think i love her...........

(If my girlfriend ever discovers boards im in alot of trouble....... she also thinks i only play a €20 freezeout once a week......)

ditpoker

she's good... but no michelle! and we all only pay €20 freezeouts... sure yesterday was a €5 home game!

eoghan104

ditpoker wrote:

she's good... but no michelle! and we all only pay €20 freezeouts... sure yesterday was a €5 home game!

haha excellent i must put that one in my arsenal of excuses!!!