Gender: Paganism, Wica, Covens & Groves

6th

Ok I think I will probably have to start every post I make in here with an apology for my ignorance and lack of understanding on certain matters, so .... sorry

Anyway as someone who has only recently started looking at the area of Paganism & Wica I have noticed something. It does seem to be an area dominated by woman, I dont say this as a bad thing but just as an observation.

I understand that some of the lead figures such as Gerald Gardner & Aleister Crowley have been male but they seem to be in a serious minority and usually hold a senior role as opposed to just being regular members of covans or groves.

When I started to look at particular rituals I noticed that High Priests could take the role of Gods and yet High Priestess' could take the role of either Goddess or God making the female open to carrying out varied roles? Also while reading the Gardnerian Book of Shadows I noticed that the initiation rituals always refered to the initiate as a female and the ritual itself seemed to just suit to this being the case?

So to some it up is there a role for those men less experienced in Paganism & Wica? I understand that it varies among different strains or areas of Wica & Paganism but I just though I'd bring it up in the hope that I would be corrected and educated on the matter.

Mark

*Edit: Also please excuse you if I am using incorrect terminology, I dont wish to offend anyone.

Also I understand that many (?) of these paths focus on Fertility in one way or another and therefore both male and female are nessecery. I also understand that it is not like hollywood where are pagans & wiccans are female.

Nevyn

Frist off Aleister Crowley was an occultist and not a pagan.

Secondly I would suggest that you start by gaining an understanding of just how many differing types of paganism or neo paganism there is instead of what is perieced as Wica/wicca, do you know the difference by what I mean as Wica and wicca ?
Have you read the stickies in this forum ?

6th

I have read some but not all of the stickies (bold me) and my very basic understanding of the difference of wica and wicca is that wica is the original spelling and wicca was used as the standardised spelling when a general and broader discription was thrown at it.

I know I have loads to read on the subject and much to familiarise myself with bu t I intend to ask alot of questions along the way - no point asking when I eventually know alot.

Nevyn

OK

You are not Wiccan or Wican unless you have been iniatited into what is termed a traditional lineaged coven have taken the Oaths.

What is know as wicca and those that claim to be wiccan ( yes the lower case is delibrate ) are working on public published material which is not bound by the oaths.
Most that claim to be wiccan are trying to follow a wiccan path or live a pagan life and doing publically published electic rituals.

All Wicans are witches and pagans.
Not all witches are pagans.
Not all pagans are witches or Wicans or wiccans.

Now thre are lots of good people doing good work and walking thier spiritual paths that are not witches or Wican and thier paths are still wonderfull and enriched with learning, enlightenment and interaction with deity and there are some people who for them thier path leads them to Wica and to traditional lineaged witchcraft.

Now a lot of the questions you have asked above are directly to do with wicca and what is known and what is public and I will answer in that context but that does not mean it is the only path and the only form of paganism.
Merely it appear to be what you are asking about.


Just that certain a publishing company and a certain author wrote a whole heap of 'safe' and fuffly books under the term wicca so it has been the new thing for the last while.
The great book thread has a lot of good suggestions in it, not everything can be found via google and not everything in is a book.

A lot of people have had to go and look and seek and search in a vacum with out the internet or the joys of boards.ie

I will answer your queries but felt I could do so with out making a few thing plain first and with out getting a cup of coffee first.

/me heads to the kitchen

6th

Sorry I should have made clear the bits that I am aware of. I fully understand that to be wiccan you must be initiated and that this is by far the only path to choose.

My questions I supposed are aimed towards wica/wicca as it is in reading about these in particular and their practics that I noted a lack of male involvement.

My question is "is this the case" if so "is there a reason for it" and finally is there a place for men within wicca (again I mean in general) without being a figure of authority. (again sorry for the terminology).

Thaedydal wrote:

Just that certain a publishing company and a certain author wrote a whole heap of 'safe' and fuffly books under the term wicca so it has been the new thing for the last while.
The great book thread has a lot of good suggestions in it, not everything can be found via google and not everything in is a book.

Yes I understand its not all on the net and thats why I ask people who are involved as opposed to just being happy to read a wiki.

I also understand that each branch (of a coven?) would have their own hand written version of a 'Book of Shadows' where how something is written and the subtilties of it can mean alot.

I do not presume there are set rules for all to follow but I stress that I am asking in general as someone who has very limited knowledge.

Nevyn

6th wrote:

Yes I understand its not all on the net and thats why I ask people who are involved as opposed to just being happy to read a wiki.

You can learn lot from wiki just not everything

6th wrote:

My questions I supposed are aimed towards wica/wicca as it is in reading about these in particular and their practics that I noted a lack of male involvement.

My question is "is this the case" if so "is there a reason for it" and finally is there a place for men within wicca (again I mean in general) without being a figure of authority.

I''m not picking on you honest just getting you to think and be a bit more presice and if a heathen or druid wants to chime in on this thread about gender in thier tradtion that would be nice too.

6th

Thaedydal wrote:

You can learn lot from wiki just not everything

I understand that, but wiki does not varied it responce or highlight depnding on what someone wants to know whereas asking an individual or groups they can aswer more appropriately the questions being asked.

Thaedydal wrote:

I''m not picking on you honest just getting you to think and be a bit more presice and if a heathen or druid wants to chime in on this thread about gender in thier tradtion that would be nice too.

I understand that completely but at this moment in time I am asking general questions and will happily accept very general answers. If people are not happy with a question or how I ask a question then they dont have to answer.

Would be great to get input from people of varied experience and practices.

Tabnabs

6th wrote:

Anyway as someone who has only recently started looking at the area of Paganism & Wica I have noticed something. It does seem to be an area dominated by woman, I dont say this as a bad thing but just as an observation.

Ok, I'll bite.

In heathery (aka Asatru/Odinism/alcoholic reconstructionist anonymous) the balance is more on the male side (and so not very well balanced). A lot of this is due to historical reasons & the literature is mainly male-centric, plus the fact that western society is so patriarchal that it just becomes "the norm".

There are great efforts to achieve an equal balance and some male practitioners will have female patrons and vise verse.

However, there are no roles that are male or female specific. There are some that are traditionally associated with one gender or the other, but absolutely nothing is carved in stone (except for the runes of course )

Nevyn

Yes there is a place for men in Wica and in wicca.

Gardener wrote that a prefect coven was made up 6 married couples.
Given the context of marriage in britian at the time this means that the coven would be made up of 6 men and 6 women.

The HighPriest of a coven is not the only man in the coven, a coven is not his
harem.
Now every initate in a coven is a priest or priestess to thier gods and part of the training is to learn to function as a HP/HPS.

Paganism can appear to be Godesses and women centric,
this has been the case as the Godess has been reclaimed and rediscovered
after years of being neglect and ingored, part of restoring the balance as it were but there has to be the balance of male and female, God and Godess, Highpriest and Highpreistess, devine and mortal.

This has ment that a lot of men esp straight men find Wica/wicca hard to get a handle on as it appears to be all about feminity but it is not.We all have a mother and a father, we all need male and female role models as we grow.

You are right about it being about fertility and for anything to be created there has to be the male and female spark.

The same way there are rites of the drawning down the moon there are rites for the drawning down of the sun.

To have the only male in a coven as a HP how's only function is to open up the HPS is to my mind wrong and dishonouring of him and of the God.
It is like refusing a child the right to get to know his father or the father the right to take an active and equal part in rearing his children.

There are female only mysteries but there are also male only mysteries.

The two main traditions of Wica are Gardnerian and Alexandrian both named after the men that founded them.

To me asking is there a place for men in Wica/wicca is aking to asking is there a place for the God or male diety in Wica/wicca and the answer is YES and the reasons are many.

Nevyn

Dyflin wrote:

but absolutely nothing is carved in stone (except for the runes of course )

Hey weren't they ment to have been carve in wood, I mean in a tree, ok the World Tree .

6th

Excellent, that makes things alot clearer. I am aware that some paths focus more on one gender over another and I suppose I could have been looking at Dianic Wiccans when I got the idea of the male or God having a deminised role.

Also as I said when reading the Gardnerian Book of Shadows I did notice that the initiation rituals seems to talk solely and purposely about the initiate as a female.

Tabnabs

Thaedydal wrote:

Hey weren't they ment to have been carve in wood, I mean in a tree, ok the World Tree .

Well you see stones are so much easier to use. With wood you have to ask permission of the tree wight, give a libation as thanks and then stain the runes. It's all so much easier to just pick stones out of a stream

Nevyn

6th wrote:

Also as I said when reading the Gardnerian Book of Shadows I did notice that the initiation rituals seems to talk solely and purposely about the initiate as a female.

Well know you have some idea why women for generations felt excluded by the term man/men/he being used constantly to mean mankind, I mean humankind ie people.

Why there are not more women in what are condiered the professions as women even today when the term professional is used in relation to women it smacks of being a prositiute.

Nearly all the occult book on themla ect ect all refer to the magican and the illustrations are of men does this mean that women can't be occultists ?

Most of the books on plumbing, electraical engineering, bricklaying say he and have pictures of men in them does that mean women can't be any of those things ?

If the baby books how picture of a mammy changing a nappy does that mean that a daddy can't do it ?

Suaimhneach

Thaedydal wrote:

Paganism can appear to be Godesses and women centric,
this has been the case as the Godess has been reclaimed and rediscovered
after years of being neglect and ingored, part of restoring the balance as it were but there has to be the balance of male and female, God and Godess, Highpriest and Highpreistess, devine and mortal.

This is my understanding of it.

Regardless of which path you chose to follow [wiccan/druid/shaman etc] we all work essentially with the one great energy, and to work with that there needs to be balance.

For it to be male or female only, within one of those paths, for example if a religion/belief/path said "All men must work with the most powerful energy, and women are entitled for none of this power" [or vice versa] then it is about ego, and power hunger and control and negativity. This will not work to anyones benefit.. the energy would be blocked and/or misused.

As you are so new to this [isnt it fun learning everything, and getting teh understanding for the first time] I suggest taking your time with making decisions about what path is right for you. I'm sure you'll find your magical place as a man, within some path, with no problems...!

6th

Thaedydal wrote:

Well know you have some idea why women for generations felt excluded by the term man/men/he being used constantly to mean mankind, I mean humankind ie people.

Why there are not more women in what are condiered the professions as women even today when the term professional is used in relation to women it smacks of being a prositiute.

Nearly all the occult book on themla ect ect all refer to the magican and the illustrations are of men does this mean that women can't be occultists ?

Most of the books on plumbing, electraical engineering, bricklaying say he and have pictures of men in them does that mean women can't be any of those things ?

If the baby books how picture of a mammy changing a nappy does that mean that a daddy can't do it ?

I understand what you are saying and agree to a point. Can I just stress I am not coming at this by saying 'men get a raw deal and its not fair". I really just wanted to know where the cases where men played small part or no part at all.

From what is being said it does look like its a case of 'well men did this to women for years and now its being done to them'. I dont think that is the case but if it is surely thats a case of doing just what they did and not a balance at all.

I am also genuinely interested in why a High Priestess can take the part of God or Goddess and a High Priest can only take the part of God. Also that Priestesses in general (dpending on the ritual) take the place of a male?

I really dont mean for this to be seen as some sort of battle of the sexes and if it appears to some that this is the case I am very sorry. I am not used to dealing with alot of frequenters of this forum and equally some would not be used to me and easily misunderstand me.

Nevyn

If men want to get invovled in Wica and wicca they have every right to.
There is nothing holding them back except thier own pre or misconceptions, and maybe finding the right group to work with.

6th wrote:

From what is being said it does look like its a case of 'well men did this to women for years and now its being done to them'. I dont think that is the case but if it is surely thats a case of doing just what they did and not a balance at all.

In order for there to be a balance and for men and women to consider each other and themselves as equal women had to be allowed to recover thier status for themselves as priestesses again and the Godess to be return as being devine.

Think of it like a pendulum on a clock that had swung to far to the right and then swung to to far to the left but is making progress to the centre.

6th wrote:

I am also genuinely interested in why a High Priestess can take the part of God or Goddess and a High Priest can only take the part of God. Also that Priestesses in general (dpending on the ritual) take the place of a male?

Cos women can grow tiny penises inside them.
Seriously.
Women can naturall contain both male and female engeries.

But that is in a strict context.
I have seen straight men with patron Goddess act as an agent of Her will and channel her.

The Gods use those that are willing and suitible vessels but it is preferible to use willing vessels of the same gender not every woman can cope with having an astral and engertic penis, literaly a Godhead

It is a case of best practice.

6th

Excellent, well thats two veins of thought I've gotten some clarity on today.

It pays to ask questions.

Nevyn

Well don't assume everything I say is gospel or is your truth do your reading and researching as well and come to your own conclusions.

6th

Ah clarity doesnt mean I have answers just a few pointers

Asiaprod

Thaedydal wrote:

The Gods use those that are willing and suitible vessels but it is preferible to use willing vessels of the same gender not every woman can cope with having an astral and engertic penis, literaly a Godhead

It is a case of best practice.

Talliesin

6th wrote:

Excellent, that makes things alot clearer. I am aware that some paths focus more on one gender over another and I suppose I could have been looking at Dianic Wiccans when I got the idea of the male or God having a deminised role.

Comparing Dianic Witchcraft with Wicca in this regard is comparing chalk and cheese given that the biggest difference between Dianic Witchcraft and Wicca is probably in this very area.

6th wrote:

Also as I said when reading the Gardnerian Book of Shadows I did notice that the initiation rituals seems to talk solely and purposely about the initiate as a female.

So did the CAO/CAS forms I filled in when I applied to go to college

On a related note, take the veracity of any Book of Shadows you come across other than from a vouched Wiccan who knows that you are also a vouched Wiccan of the same line with a pinch of salt. You don't know what's missing, you don't know what's added, and you don't know what oral context went with which bits.

6th

Talliesin wrote:

Comparing Dianic Witchcraft with Wicca in this regard is comparing chalk and cheese given that the biggest difference between Dianic Witchcraft and Wicca is probably in this very area.

I wasnt comparing them ass I would have nothing to compare them on, but asking if what I noted with regards to gender rolls in Dianic was a common trend across other paths & practices?

Talliesin wrote:

So did the CAO/CAS forms I filled in when I applied to go to college

Again I was asking was there a reason to why they used the female as the default when describing initiation rituals .. and I got my an answer with suited me.

Talliesin wrote:

On a related note, take the veracity of any Book of Shadows you come across other than from a vouched Wiccan who knows that you are also a vouched Wiccan of the same line with a pinch of salt. You don't know what's missing, you don't know what's added, and you don't know what oral context went with which bits.

I understand that not everything is put down in writting and that covens and groves have a stronge oral tradition also.

Would you have any comments on your experiences of the role of gender in any particular path or in general?

Nevyn

6th wrote:

Again I was asking was there a reason to why they used the female as the default when describing initiation rituals ..

Well what you were reading claims to be Gerald Gardner's book of shadows.
You have to remember that no one was ment to even see a BOS until initated never mind read one and such materials were ment to ba oath bound.

So either what is on line is made up or someone broke thier oaths and that then makes them and what you are reading unrelible.

As the rite that you read was ment to be from GG's Bos then it would have been the rite as he would have preformed it.

In Wica and indeed wiccan initations are preformed cross genders.
The HighPriestess initiats male candiates and the High Priest initates female candiates.
So if it is an initation as GG would have preformed it him bing male ( as the records, pictures and indeed beard suggests ) then the initate in question or any initate he initated would there for be female; hence the use of she.

6th

Cheers for that Thaed, that answers it perfectly in the context of what I read.

btw his beard (and hair) was fantastic!

scorplett

6th wrote:

Paganism & Wica I have noticed something. It does seem to be an area dominated by woman, I dont say this as a bad thing but just as an observation.

It does often seem to be that way and within certain traditions and even within individual groups there is a female dominant role. Both with regard to those practicing and the Deities they worship. Much of this in my opinion has developed to a degree because of what might be termed the Goddess Movement of the late 60's early 70's in America, authors such as Z. Budapest, Starhawk and Margot Adler, gave scope and credence to the worship of female divinity in a modern worldview. However, as with the feminist movement that it had been fed by, it became more of a 'cause' than a reality and was popularized and over exaggerate .
Taking this and also a preconception that witches are women we now find in wider paganism and witchcraft there is a predominance of women.
However, Wicca was largely unchanged by much of this. Sure there are more female seekers due to it but just because you are seeking Wicca does not mean you will ever find a Coven that will accept you. And this is moot to this subject. The widespread use of Wicca, wica, wicca, witch Witch etc etc…the number of variations we have at this stage is just incredible.
There are of course other traditions that were also unaffected by this dominance, such as
Asatru and Nordic practices, aspects of Shamanism, Druidic paths etc.
However the reality is actually quite different. There are natural ebbs and flows of male female ratio beginning to learn and seek in the area of paganism, which naturally balances itself. For example, currently the ratio of male to female seekers I am finding is about 4:1 two years ago it was about 2:2 and about 5 years ago it was about 1:4...

...have been male but they seem to be in a serious minority and usually hold a senior role as opposed to just being regular members of covans or groves....

It is essential to the practice of traditional Coven Wicca that men are involved. A Priestess is without anything unless she is blessed by the willing assistance of a Priest who ‘lends’ his power to her. This is tracing to the myths and legends that were central to the new forest Covens concepts and worship to which lineaged Wicca traces to.
It also reflects the fertility nature of the practice in that a womb is barren unless a man is willing to lend it his seed!
The function of High Priest and High Priestess, in the rituals that are practiced and the passing of a tradition most defiantly mirror the fertility process and to my mind, rather than being a mother father children sort of concept it is far more like a gestation or pregnancy whereupon certain initiations are stages of the pregnancy or labour. Making the womb and woman central, but non existant without the assistance of the man in more ways than just sowing his seed.
This shows verily in that the pride of place within the Coven is most definitely the High Priestess but also in that it is stated in the Old Law that youth in necessary to function in that role, i.e. a High Priestess must be of childbearing age in order to represent the Goddess and to take within her through the Great Rite the power or seed of the High Priest (bearing in mind this is symbolic in ritual but if the HP and HPs are a courting couple they will enact this in private, if the HP and HPs are not a couple they will enact this with their partner as something akin to tantra and less in the format of ritual) The training and experiences of the dedicant and initiate are the nurturing of the mother womb and when ready they will leave the nest as such.

You will also have noticed that within the rituals there are many requirements for ‘other men’ in their makeup. These would be ordinary Coveners. By the term ordinary Coveners I do not mean that they are just people who attend the circles, they are initiates of the Coven.

When I started to look at particular rituals I noticed that High Priests could take the role of Gods and yet High Priestess' could take the role of either Goddess or God making the female open to carrying out varied roles?

As Thead rightly says, this is quite simple really. It is because a woman can be pregnant with a male child and have the energies of both genders within her. It is only in VERY specific circumstances and besides. She would not be a Priestess without having been initiated such by a High Priest. Also as mentioned before a Priestess is nothing without a Priest who is willingly giving his power over to her. All of this is only within certain contexts of certain rites and has NOTHING to do with daily worship devotion and celebration.

Also while reading the Gardnerian Book of Shadows I noticed that the initiation rituals always refered to the initiate as a female and the ritual itself seemed to just suit to this being the case?

Thead got it in the last post… Thanks for passing on the message while I wrote this immensely obtuse and hugely pedantic reply….  GBG was a guy, guys initiate girls so he wrote that he himself would be initiating people who responded to she. I think it quite appropriate that the origins of modern Wicca were due to the efforts of men like GBG and Sanders as it again echoes the concept of the Priest Priestess as fertile beings who play out the acts of drama, tragedy and comedy that are the rites and practices they perform.
<end of immensely obtuse and hugely pedantic reply>
</me cuts to the chase>

So to some it up is there a role for those men less experienced in Paganism & Wica? I understand that it varies among different strains or areas of Wica & Paganism but I just though I'd bring it up in the hope that I would be corrected and educated on the matter.

Yes

Also I understand that many (?) of these paths focus on Fertility in one way or another and therefore both male and female are nessecery. I also understand that it is not like hollywood where are pagans & wiccans are female.

Yes See lengthy explinations above

6th

Thank you for that very informative reply, its great to see people so open to answering questions. I don't even feel like my questions were that silly anymore.

Nevyn

There are no silly questions only silly people

scorplett

6th wrote:

I don't even feel like my questions were that silly anymore.

It was in no way a silly question. It is a question many have particuluarly with regard to Wicca and is the root of many a long standing debate within the craft itself aswell as the wider community.