A note to the unwise.

Doc Farrell

I was in two minds as to whether I should bother writing this but I'm going to do so in the philantropic hope that it might benefit some of our less wise brethren.

I have a friend called Kevin who until recently was a student. He is also a great cash game player. He plays a lot like Greenstein, quiet, courteous, friendly, yet with a savage killer instinct for attacking when he senses weakness.

The reason I'm mentioning him is to prove that it's not students that annoy me per se, but last night in the small cash game in the Fitz there were two students sitting next to each other and they chose to speak loudly and with a great deal of arrogance. And they lost their shirts (or unwashed hoodies in this case).

What was extraordinarily annoying in this case was their need to illustrate that they knew the percentages of each hand (not that the sums are particularly tough) but seemed either clueless or dismissive of their table image.

Everyone else at the table was simply gunning for them. They were calling their bluffs, bluffing more themselves, pushing any edge they could find, just to send them packing.

I suspect they are readers of this forum as I find the same blind spot in many posters here when they write about hand strategies. Their cry can usually be summed up as 'How could he call me with that', followed by a list of why the cryer was percentagely ahead! He probably called due to either your table image (you didn't care if he disliked you) or a simple read based on information that the (usually young) player is blind to directly because of his (always his, so far) arrogance.

So, I'm going to let some less experienced readers here in on a little secret that I have found to be true but I'm sure others less wise will try to argue against!

I've never known an antagonistic player to be a winner in the long run. Yes, you can have large wins initially by goading others into calling you. But these other players will never forgive you for it, or if they do it will cost you twice what you have won. It's fine to be quietly arrogant (or confident) but as soon as you express it to the detriment of others at the table you are setting yourself up as a prime target.

I suspect I shouldn't have bothered writing this, in the same way as I don't point out the human flaws in the strategy posts that lead to repeat losses for highly intelligent young players. I'm here to take advantage of the information rather than help them see it.

But perhaps there will be a few quieter students who hope to continue playing profitably who will read this. Like my friend Kevin, they will realise that it simply isn't wise to make others feel Less by behaving arrogantly.

Arrogance is the armour a frightened player protects himself with. Be quietly confident with your game instead, and generous in spirit to those you defeat.

As Spock said yesterday at teatime in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, 'Live Long and Prosper...'

here endeth my rant.


(actually the English kids in the Gutshot are five times worse than the Irish, so don't feel too bad if you are one of these mouthoffs )

brianmc

I love it.

What was the name of that hippo again?

ditpoker

is it just me or would one not have to be reasonably arrogant themselves to come on and post/preach such a scathing attack against a demographic of which one is not part?

Your problem here is not with students, but indeed two arrogant poker players, who happened to be students (or maybe just people under the age of 25 or so). I find it interesting that you have never played against an arrogant poker player of greater age. Why single out the students? Surely you must be expecting some fairly defensive posts from the growing student community on this forum? Is your intention here to ruffle feathers?

Your post could have been quite unbiased and simply discussed the actions and consequences of arrogant play. This could have been noteworthy advice, but instead you flavoured your post with a student bashing undertone. Does it frustrate you that much that there are winning student players who don't bother with false modesty?

This posts serves the purpose that you complain about. You decree as if it is fact that arrogance puts a target on your head that means people will be gunning for you... based on YOUR post who do you think myself and other poker playing students will be gunning for when we sit at a table? Don't get me wrong, there are many players who utilise the arrogant persona to their benefit (phil hellmuth, mike matusow) but in this catagory i am afraid you are not.

viva la student poker revolution!

White Knight

Doc Farrell wrote:

I've never known an antagonistic player to be a winner in the long run.

Tony G?! :rolleyes:

DapperGent

1. How did you know they were students?

2. You appear to consider being older than someone else an achievement. Your parents fúcked earlier, so what? A thirty-something moron is still a moron, he's just had more practice.

ntlbell

It's far to early for him to be drunk.

phantom_lord

I'm a student (at least on paper...:rolleyes: ) and I've to say I've to agree with the op. I find a few of the younger players in the fitz pretty arrogant and unpleasant to have at the table, majority are fine tho. To paint all young people/students with the same brush would obviously be wrong, not all of them are as the op describes, but alot of those that display that behaviour fit into that demographic. I take it his post to be more a piece of advice for these kinda players, rather than a broadside on students...

Daithio

DapperGent wrote:

Your parents fúcked earlier, so what? A thirty-something moron is still a moron, he's just had more practice.

Genuine LOL.

When I started playing live there would nearly always be two regulars at the end of the table whispering to each other about how badly someone or other had played a hand. I thought this was atrocious behaviour and still do. At least these two you're talking about Des are saying it out loud, but they still sound like absolute muppets all the same. What I'm trying to say though is that it's not confined to student players, it's just arseholes in general, and it doesn't make a difference what age they are.

I do tend to agree though that people who openly criticise the play of others at the table tend to be losing players. But not always, for eg. Tony G, Phil Hellmuth etc etc. In the Irish poker scene I can't think of one antagonistic winning player though tbh.

Fatboydim

I think it's an interesting point about arrogant players. [Whichever demographic they come from.] I know two good players of age who often use arrogance as a stratergy. Interestingly both do quite well but I've also seen it significantly blow up in their faces. The difference however with Hellmuth and Matusow for example is that they are "Personalities" and there are surely few players who would sit down at a table with them and not know who they are and what to expect.

Hitman Actual

Daithio wrote:

In the Irish poker scene I can't think of one antagonistic winning player though tbh.

There is one certain Cork player, who used to be a Fitz regular, who is very antagonistic at the table, and I'm sure he's a decent winner. But that's the only one I can think of.

Big LOL at Dappergent too. But I think Doc's perfect decade would have been the 60's, the drunk hippie that he is.

sikes

I'm a student too, as a rule of thumb students are arrogant c*nts. we talk in a manner such as

scathing attack against a demographic of which one is not part?

which is our vague attempt to show how cultured we are. We look at the older generation who are in their 9-5 and have settled down, and we want to show how the world shall be our oyster, so we talk loudly and profoundly (usually we hope our profound statements are lost on the older generation, and usually are not profound, they just sound it.)

We are much like the Celtic bitches, the women from the mid-late nineties who married for money, we don't deserve it, it being something for nothing, and while they prance around in their designer gear, we want to prance around with knowledge and superior brain power for all to see, regardless if we have it or not.

I try to keep quiet enough at the table and rarely play cash live as its just a grind and not much fun, imo. But i know what you are talking about, recently i *played* a game in the jackpot and whenever there was a show down a young fella, prob a student, kept shouting random hands that he thought i had. "2 pair" he would say leaning forward and waiting for me to turn over my cards. "No my friend, the second nut flush draw" but thanks for telling me how you interrupt my plays!

BTW no offense ditpoker, its just the way we are programmed to act.

Mellor

I too am a student, and I'd agree with that with the OP that alot of student players are arrogant. But as alot of people have said its not confined to students. Arrogant players are probably more common amoungst students. But they are plenty of assholes that are just old and bitter. And for every arrogant student player, there are probably two bitter assholes somewhere else. I don't preach odds at the table. And don't see the point. If somebody questions my play or has a go at me for making a draw, I don't mind at all, and I won't bother trying to explain how he gave me pot odds.

At least arrogant student players will grow out of it. Bitter aul' assholes are stuck like that.

Ste05

This has nothing to do with Students or young people, I completely agree with Daithio, when I first played Live nearly 6 years ago or whenever it was I first got into Poker, I used to go into the Merrion the odd time for a low buy-in tournament, now I was crap and didn't have a clue what I was doing, and exactly what Daithio was talking about happened to me nearly everytime I played, after a couple of weeks I just didn't want to play Live so I concentrated on internet Poker, and didn't play Live again until about 6 months ago, when I started dipping my feet into the Live cash games a little bit usually drunk to begin with, but slightly more sober nowadays (I still don't play tournaments but only because the structures are so bad), and TBH the Casino's in town are much more welcoming then they were back then, and it's not even close, these arrogant young players at least are openly saying what they (usually mistakenly) think is right, but it's just the same for the Fish as it was in the past I'm sure, it's just the arrogant "experienced" players are having their noses put out of place. Personally I much prefer it the way it is now, then the way it was then.

Doc does have a point though, that there is absolutely no place at the table for chastising a fish for how they play a hand, and if those 2 people are reading then they should be ashamed of themselves. It really boils my blood when I see it happening, in fact I've heard so many discussions from both the young and older players, who's arrogance is laughable, some of them are probably marginal winning players (just because the standard is so bad), and when they are chastising some fish for a play that might have worked out for the fish, (I don't seem to hear it when it doesn't work out, so at least these idiots (young and old) have the brains to not say anything when the Fish loses, except to just say "unlucky, now re-load"). But alot of the times their "analysis" or their opinions on "what you should have done" is usually just basically wrong and so simplistic.

Although I'm not a student any more, I'm sure someone looking at me would think I was and TBH I actually prefer it that way, because the older "more experienced" players show no respect for unknown young players (probably rightly TBH, but this general tarring all unknowns with the same brush is great). Doc's post above is basically just a post about how players should pay attention to their table image, those that don't, are nearly always losing players, and those that do, can make a killing both off the "experienced players" and the fish. It's basically just Poker 102 (ahh a nice little student reference )

Anyway, end of rant, BTW I'd love to know what happened to Doc, there's been a bee in his bonnet about young players for nearly a year now. It's a shame, I used to love reading his posts before he stopped posting, surely we're not all that bad??

Doc Farrell

Ste05 wrote:

This has nothing to do with Students or young people, I completely agree with Daithio, when I first played Live nearly 6 years ago or whenever it was I first got into Poker, I used to go into the Merrion the odd time for a low buy-in tournament, now I was crap and didn't have a clue what I was doing, and exactly what Daithio was talking about happened to me nearly everytime I played, after a couple of weeks I just didn't want to play Live so I concentrated on internet Poker, and didn't play Live again until about 6 months ago, when I started dipping my feet into the Live cash games a little bit usually drunk to begin with, but slightly more sober nowadays (I still don't play tournaments but only because the structures are so bad), and TBH the Casino's in town are much more welcoming then they were back then, and it's not even close, these arrogant young players at least are openly saying what they (usually mistakenly) think is right, but it's just the same for the Fish as it was in the past I'm sure, it's just the arrogant "experienced" players are having their noses put out of place. Personally I much prefer it the way it is now, then the way it was then.

Doc does have a point though, that there is absolutely no place at the table for chastising a fish for how they play a hand, and if those 2 people are reading then they should be ashamed of themselves. It really boils my blood when I see it happening, in fact I've heard so many discussions from both the young and older players, who's arrogance is laughable, some of them are probably marginal winning players (just because the standard is so bad), and when they are chastising some fish for a play that might have worked out for the fish, (I don't seem to hear it when it doesn't work out, so at least these idiots (young and old) have the brains to not say anything when the Fish loses, except to just say "unlucky, now re-load"). But alot of the times their "analysis" or their opinions on "what you should have done" is usually just basically wrong and so simplistic.

Although I'm not a student any more, I'm sure someone looking at me would think I was and TBH I actually prefer it that way, because the older "more experienced" players show no respect for unknown young players (probably rightly TBH, but this general tarring all unknowns with the same brush is great). Doc's post above is basically just a post about how players should pay attention to their table image, those that don't, are nearly always losing players, and those that do, can make a killing both off the "experienced players" and the fish. It's basically just Poker 102 (ahh a nice little student reference )

Anyway, end of rant, BTW I'd love to know what happened to Doc, there's been a bee in his bonnet about young players for nearly a year now. It's a shame, I used to love reading his posts before he stopped posting, surely we're not all that bad??

I wish others who want to make a comment about my post would actually read it as closely as this fine gentleman here has. This has nothing to do with students, it just happened that last night the couple in question were that particular species.

I thought I had made that point clear by repeating it twice in the first two paragraphs and mentioning a student friend of mine who paid his way through college from his winnings and yet has impeccable table manners.

Dappergent I know these two were students as they told me through the medium of conversation using sounds known as 'words'. I think your second comment to be unworthy of an intelligent mind. I have no interest in personalising this thread.

just to repeat, quoting from the above poster:

'Doc's post above is basically just a post about how players should pay attention to their table image, those that don't, are nearly always losing players, and those that do, can make a killing both off the "experienced players" and the fish.'

Already I regret pointing out the single greatest reason why newish, previously successful, intelligent players lose big.

If anyone thinks my post was against 3rd level students please read the first few sentances again. I myself have a post graduate degree so I certainly don't have an issue with higher education.

To answer your question Steo I stopped posting because I find little genuine honesty in many posts. Too many are boastful and shallow. Only a few acknowledge the difficulties in making a profit from playing cards. Thats why most of my posts are simply drunken jokes, because if I write seriously on a subject I find myself a target for ill thought out personal abuse.

I admired two good players such as gholi moli and Marq for their recent honesty and many of the long term posters are incapable of the bull**** that clouds the judgement of newer players and posters.

There's a reason why many more successful players than I don't bother stopping by anymore. It's quite simple, why should they speak honestly on a subject and expose themselves to ridicule or comments such as dappergents above.

I also don't post as much because I have a management job now, which I hate, and interests in two businesses that take up a lot of energy (btw anyone want to buy a car?).

Poker has gone back to being a small time hobby rather than an essential supplement to my income and I much prefer it that way.

I wish you all well. And, again, to quote my hero, Mr. Spock:

'Live Long And Prosper'.

DeuceAces

Doc Farrell wrote:

I wish others who want to make a comment about my post would actually read it as closely as this fine gentleman here has. This has nothing to do with students, it just happened that last night the couple in question were that particular species.

I thought I had made that point clear by repeating it twice in the first two paragraphs and mentioning a student friend of mine who paid his way through college from his winnings and yet has impeccable table manners.

Dappergent I know these two were students as they told me through the medium of conversation using sounds known as 'words'. I think your second comment to be unworthy of an intelligent mind. I have no interest in personalising this thread.

just to repeat, quoting from the above poster:

'Doc's post above is basically just a post about how players should pay attention to their table image, those that don't, are nearly always losing players, and those that do, can make a killing both off the "experienced players" and the fish.'

Already I regret pointing out the single greatest reason why newish, previously successful, intelligent players lose big.

If anyone thinks my post was against 3rd level students please read the first few sentances again. I myself have a post graduate degree so I certainly don't have an issue with higher education.

To answer your question Steo I stopped posting because I find little genuine honesty in many posts. Too many are boastful and shallow. Only a few acknowledge the difficulties in making a profit from playing cards. Thats why most of my posts are simply drunken jokes, because if I write seriously on a subject I find myself a target for ill thought out personal abuse.

I admired two good players such as gholi moli and Marq for their recent honesty and many of the long term posters are incapable of the bull**** that clouds the judgement of newer players and posters.

There's a reason why many more successful players than I don't bother stopping by anymore. It's quite simple, why should they speak honestly on a subject and expose themselves to ridicule or comments such as dappergents above.

I also don't post as much because I have a management job now, which I hate, and interests in two businesses that take up a lot of energy (btw anyone want to buy a car?).

Poker has gone back to being a small time hobby rather than an essential supplement to my income and I much prefer it that way.

I wish you all well. And, again, to quote my hero, Mr. Spock:

'Live Long And Prosper'.

Doc,

It is easy to get p1ssed off with people on boards. But remember for every comment/post there are many readers not saying anything but just reading. Don't let what you perceive, all be it rightly or wrongly, put you off posting!

A lot of us can gleam the "info" we need regardless of egos. Having met dapper a few times...he is actually sound if not a tad caustic. Some times posts are not the man/woman.

A suggestion though. Get out of the car industry It's a killer.

And get a new hero.

Goodluck2me

although i wouldnt be overly keen on the tone of your op i think much, not all, of what you were saying is correct. i often find myself getting carried away with speech at the table, and whilst in my heart of hearts i never mean to come across as an arrogent pr1ck, i often do, and this is something which i have tried to address.
i am experienced enough now to know not to tap the fish tank etc, and to let others play the game as they see fit. however i do enjoy the psychological element of the game and speech play is a big part of that, so i think in moderation its a good tool to have.
they key is finding a happy medium where you can have the craic at the table, and a bit of ribbing with friends is ok, without ever becoming aggressive or defamatory as it spoils the enjoyment of the game for others and in the long run yourself. i would also like to point out that the majority of newer players coming to the game are students and many newer players are too cocky, from over estimating their abilities. but there is definite remnants of patronisation and resentment from a section of the old guard who make life uncomfortable for younger players (experienced or not) which acts as a catalyst for younger players to be overly keen to show their skills and to prove them wrong. this has been my experience anyway, and maybe other would agree with it i dont know. hopefully, the social side of the game will translate through age totally, as to be fair most people on here and that ive met have been absolute gentlemen (with the exception of Valor ) and has been the rule rather than the exception.

myflipflops

OP makes an excellent point in my opinion. Antagonism at the table is something that really dumbfounds me. I'll give 2 examples of how i have seen it in action.
On friday night in the fitz, i was playing a cash table and a ridiculously drunk regular (who i previously rated as a nice bloke) sat down with a stack. From the first moment he was antoganising everybody at the table. Early on, i won a pot against him in a showdown after i checked very weakly on the river with a set. He berated my play and called me something that i won't repeat here. There and then i decided i would go out of my way to take his stack and i did it a few hands later (it wasn't hard, he was hammered). Basically, his attitude, drunken or not cost him cash.

My second example is a more long term one. A very good friend of mine with whom i play a lot is a very antagonistic player. He is also a very good player however he does a lot of the "how did you call like that" stuff. Even online, he gets abusive. I have said to him a number of times that i believe this to be the worst part of his game from any perspective. He disagrees and thinks it works to his advantage. As someone who prefers to sit quietly at the table i just cannot see his point. By winding players up, even good ones, i believe he is costing himself money. Unfortunately it's not a fact i can prove.

I believe the increasing amount of antagonism you see in live poker has come from where people are learning to play. Guys who are introduced to the game by watching lots of it on TV see the Americans and others giving lots of verbals on the table. They tend to believe that this attitude should be brought into the fitz or the emporium of wherever.
Personally, i was introduced to the game playing live from hte start. I learned how to play and act from playing in the fitz and to a lesser extent the merrion. The majority of my opponents behaved properly and that is how i think the game should be played and like the OP, i believe it is the most profitable way to play.

Jools Poker

I couldn't agree more with OP....I'm far from an experienced player and am trying to play more live poker now and do make mistakes when I sit down to a cash game but I know(hope) the only way I'm going to improve is by sitting down at the table and playing.... Lately however there seems to be one of these perpetual commentators at every table i play on and it's a real turn off as regards live poker...I'm actually thinking of becoming one of the ipod heads who just listen to their tunes and tune out all the bullsh*t at the table...
I think there are two distinct groups of commentators...the younger, let's say "student type" full of maths and odds and post mortems who have read all the books and just can't help spewing out all the info. It gets a little boring when they just can't help themselves but it not as annoying as the " how could you call with that?" camp...which is the one which really gets to me....and I often find that it comes from a player who considers himself a regular in his club, is therefore very comfortable what he considers his second home and feel free to admonish anyone who dares call him down...it always seems to be "how could you call with that???" and never "ooops I shouldn't really have been bluffing off half my stack with that muck?"...more annoying still is the muttering to the unfortunates seated beside him, eyes rolling, sighing, head shaking. I've noticed that this type generally will give this reaction to a player he is unfamiliar with and makes the assumption it is bad call rather than a good play (be it math-related or instinctual) whereas a player which he knows to be reasonably profitable in general terms won't get the same abuse -in his case it's a great call. I've tried to improve my play and listen to my gut a bit more carefully which has resulted in me makin some calls lately that i never would have made before and generally they have turned out to be ok but have been met with raised eyebrows as if to say how dare you?
As I said I'm not very experienced and to be honest sitting down to what's usually a table full of men generally far more experienced than me ( female and not very experienced in cash games) is sometimes intimidating in itself (I'm working on that one) but listening to someone lambast your play is just downright disheartening at times. I assume that most people who play a profitable game did not always do so and when they first started playing they made mistakes and donated money in certain games..but without inexperienced players it would be a lot harder for those experienced players to make money and they're a necessary part of the cycle of the game as a whole. However, insulting such players is likely to drive them out of the card room and onto their computer where they can turn off the chat mode and concentrate on their cards. I know it's not something that should particularly get to you but it is a facet of the game that's a turn-off for me.
As regards the pros/cons of a player having an ultra argumentative/arrogant disposition in a game I would definitely agree that unassuming modesty, agreeability and quiet confidence is the way to go..I think people have far more respect for the player who does his talking with his cards rather than the mouthpiece who just does his talking..endlessly. And I don't think being the habitual commentator does these players any good -because one thing's for sure the player who runs down what he considers to be my poor play will not be forgotten and in a game somewhere down the line I'll remember his pomposity and will make the extra effort to bust him -and I'll just be one of many lying in the long grass for him -he just effectively puts a target on his head and surely it's hard enough clearing profit without giving people motivation to bust you....
I read boards alot but generally don't post ....but I was glad to see alot of what was posted above though -good to know not everyone thinks it's their divine right to comment/criticise everyone else's play at the table....maybe I won't retreat back into the online world just yet...

Fatboydim

Andy Black said something to me once and I think it's worth repeating here.

He said: The player that wins, is the player that's thinking right.

I took this to mean on all levels. And therefore if you're being busy verballing people you're not thinking right. If you're affected by the person verballising... you're not thinking right. If you're "Not in the mood" for whatever reason... you're not thinking right. Maybe there's something in that.

5starpool

Fatboydim wrote:

I took this to mean on all levels. And therefore if you're being busy verballing people you're not thinking right. If you're affected by the person verballising... you're not thinking right. If you're "Not in the mood" for whatever reason... you're not thinking right. Maybe there's something in that.

Andy Black is hardly one to preach about verbalising........

Ardent

5starpool wrote:

Andy Black is hardly one to preach about verbalising........

I don't think you read Fatboydim's post at all.

Fatboydim

True

5starpool

Ardent wrote:

I don't think you read Fatboydim's post at all.

His post does say that if you are too busy verbalising or affected by others verbalising then you are not thinking right, does it not? I am merely pointing out that Andy has his moments (long moments in some cases) when he is doing the verbalising.

bubbleking

pwhite587 wrote:

OP makes an excellent point in my opinion. Antagonism at the table is something that really dumbfounds me. I'll give 2 examples of how i have seen it in action.
On friday night in the fitz, i was playing a cash table and a ridiculously drunk regular (who i previously rated as a nice bloke) sat down with a stack. From the first moment he was antoganising everybody at the table. Early on, i won a pot against him in a showdown after i checked very weakly on the river with a set. He berated my play and called me something that i won't repeat here. There and then i decided i would go out of my way to take his stack and i did it a few hands later (it wasn't hard, he was hammered). Basically, his attitude, drunken or not cost him cash.

My second example is a more long term one. A very good friend of mine with whom i play a lot is a very antagonistic player. He is also a very good player however he does a lot of the "how did you call like that" stuff. Even online, he gets abusive. I have said to him a number of times that i believe this to be the worst part of his game from any perspective. He disagrees and thinks it works to his advantage. As someone who prefers to sit quietly at the table i just cannot see his point. By winding players up, even good ones, i believe he is costing himself money. Unfortunately it's not a fact i can prove.

I believe the increasing amount of antagonism you see in live poker has come from where people are learning to play. Guys who are introduced to the game by watching lots of it on TV see the Americans and others giving lots of verbals on the table. They tend to believe that this attitude should be brought into the fitz or the emporium of wherever.
Personally, i was introduced to the game playing live from hte start. I learned how to play and act from playing in the fitz and to a lesser extent the merrion. The majority of my opponents behaved properly and that is how i think the game should be played and like the OP, i believe it is the most profitable way to play.

dont really understand what your saying here about how being an antagonising person costs you money.

you seem to maintain that because some players are antagonising you decide you want to stack them.

its a cash game that should be your attitude to every player at the table.

personally i dont care if a player is the nicest guy in the world or an antagonising pr!ck i sit down to make money ow other players choose to go about that is there own business.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

connie147

Doc, you've brought up one of my pet hates ie: the loudmouth at the table lambasting players all round him.

I run my own club here in Killarney and Ive probably wrote about this here before but even if I did, I'm gonna write it again because its so important.

We have a lot of newbies coming through the club over a period of time, and unlike in Dublin or in Cork where player pools are big, all players are vital down this way so its important new players are made to feel welcome. I would personally know most of the players in my club and when I notice a new player has not made an appearance for a while, the reason given in most cases is that they feel overpowered by these "how the fcuk can you call with that" merchants.
I wonder do there arrogant morons understand the damage they are doing? If a player stops playing live because of the abuse, thats another player lost from the live game and probably finds a home on the internet poker scene.

Ive started to take a stand in my own club now and where I hear a regular berating someones "bad" play,I'm pulling them aside to remind them that once a player puts money in, he can damn well play his cards any way he likes.
The lifeblood of any game/sport is the constant introduction of new players, and the amount of players being turned off the live game by being made look stupid at a live table by these arrogant morons is a lot bigger than people think. It really is time to stamp this ****e out.

End of rant. Sorry,but it really gets to me.

Fatboydim

Fatboydim wrote:

Andy Black said something to me once and I think it's worth repeating here.

He said: The player that wins, is the player that's thinking right.

I took this to mean on all levels. And therefore if you're being busy verballing people you're not thinking right. If you're affected by the person verballising... you're not thinking right. If you're "Not in the mood" for whatever reason... you're not thinking right. Maybe there's something in that.

This bit: The player that wins, is the player that's thinking right.
should be in Quotation marks. The rest is my interpretation of what I took from it. To be fair to Andy he was using it as a judgement on his own play. IE: That when he's playing well he's thinking right. Which seems quite an obvious thing. But when I watch Andy play I think you can tell when he's thinking right and when he isn't. When it matters to him and when it doesn't. But it was about clarity... And I'm not being very clear at the moment lol.

But you're right he is very verbal.

Four-Too

Som eof them dealers need to be put in their place too, most are very professional and well mannered, but a few are just pricks. I have heard some nasty comments from dealers to people at the table, when it was uncalled for.

Marq

Somebody ban me quick.

marius

.

marius

And those Bosmanians too, coming in here, telling me what to do, mouthin' off...

They took our jooooobs......

gocall01

connie147 wrote:

Doc, you've brought up one of my pet hates ie: the loudmouth at the table lambasting players all round him.

I run my own club here in Killarney and Ive probably wrote about this here before but even if I did, I'm gonna write it again because its so important.

We have a lot of newbies coming through the club over a period of time, and unlike in Dublin or in Cork where player pools are big, all players are vital down this way so its important new players are made to feel welcome. I would personally know most of the players in my club and when I notice a new player has not made an appearance for a while, the reason given in most cases is that they feel overpowered by these "how the fcuk can you call with that" merchants.
I wonder do there arrogant morons understand the damage they are doing? If a player stops playing live because of the abuse, thats another player lost from the live game and probably finds a home on the internet poker scene.

Ive started to take a stand in my own club now and where I hear a regular berating someones "bad" play,I'm pulling them aside to remind them that once a player puts money in, he can damn well play his cards any way he likes.
The lifeblood of any game/sport is the constant introduction of new players, and the amount of players being turned off the live game by being made look stupid at a live table by these arrogant morons is a lot bigger than people think. It really is time to stamp this ****e out.

End of rant. Sorry,but it really gets to me.

I have been a regular at one of Connie's weekly tournaments over the past year or so.
He is 100% correct in his assessment of the lifeblood of the game.
I had played on-line a little, a bi-weekly home game and 3 maybe 4 live tournaments prior to having heard about this local game.
I play in Connie's game for a few reasons:
-Affordable buy-in, rebuy & top-up.
-Good blind structure which allows for good game play (not a lottery).
-Well run tourney which as he said has no berating of any player allowed (except the friendly stuff of course).

When I was starting out this was the 1 thing I most feared.
(Like going to the bookies for the first time not knowing how to place a bet correctly and having fella's eyes burning a hole in the back of your head.)

I have seen a few new guys (young & old) in that time make simple mistakes, bad plays.
Connie and others have had a quick word in their ear in private so that they learn and enjoy the game.
For me as a person who uses the game as a social outlet, I really appreciated this when I started.

I have since made some good friends who I probably would need have meet and I believe my tournament play has improved with the helpful feedback of the more experienced players.
(That and reading HoH 1 & 2 to date.)

When a person doesn't feel comfortable in a place and there is an alternative readily available, that person will leave!
I love a bit of banter at the table but when it becomes personal and/or insulting then screw it, I'm off:)

ditpoker

marius wrote:

They took our jooooobs......

dir... tirk... IR... JIIIIIRRRRRBSS!!!!!

malinh

i am a student, who regulary heads in 2 the jackpot cash game, mainly due to its location beside the palace! on my visits i have found it to be quite the opposite. the student/young players have generally been quite quiet at the table. in contrast there is a cliche of regulars who are quite loud and sometimes abusive to players whom they do not recogonise.

About a month ago i played the sunday tournie with 3 friends. 2 f us were seated at the same table in seats 7 and 8. seats 1 and 2 were two student types who were obviously new to the casino play. to there left were 4 players who attacked the two lads about everything, until my self and my friend had enough and had a go at them about it. Sorry to go on a bit but it is unfair to state that only student/young show poor table manners

Personally i think arrogance is a key part of the game, depending on how it is used. I know what Doc is talking about and that kind of arrogance does loose you games, when you come across as an annoying c*** and are generally unlikeable, people go for you. But people who constantly talk will eventually uncover their own weaknesses for everyone at the table - the key to arrogance is to use it sporadically and strike a bit of fear into the opponent, not just being a general pri**

Doc Farrell

Oops, I kinda feel sorry for the two lads as they weren't being intentionally offensive and I only chose them to make a point about reasonably new, reasonably successful players believing their own great run will never end, as I was guilty of a couple of years ago.

They had clearly pumped each others egos up prior to playing (no sexual meaning implied) and were facing loss after loss which was bringing out the edge in them. I guess we're all guilty of that on (more than one!) occasion.

anyway, I look forward to playing against you all (and taking a loan for the bus home) in the future.

Regarding Len's point, personally I find that BBC nature documentaries and Humphrey Bogart movies help me clear my perspective prior to playing live.

(I know that last sentence is gonna look a lot weirder than I meant it to when I see it posted online)

anyhoo, good luck and keep an eye on your limits!

AKQJ10

Dear OP,

I 99% confident i know the two players in question and i play with them on a regular basis. The two lads may seem young cocky and arrogant but if you think about it they are young and you may have noticed that these players go in to play live cash all the time and have turned a few heads for the right reasons aswell. Sure i can understand how it may annoy you to see them doing well and then having a little moan when they get a beat like everyone else.

I know one of the players for definite as you've described him perfectly as calling out people's hands when there's a showdown and quoting percentages of hands but this is just the way he plays. Over the last 2/3 months has been very successful cashing in a major tourney and consistent final tables and top placings in anything from college crapshoots to well sructured big buy-in tourney's. Why change winning strategy??

With poker becoming so mainstream it is inevitable that many new types of players will emerge. Your just gonna have to concentrate on your own game rather than taking offence and moaning on the internet. Carry on letting it annoy you and you will become as he calls it a life-loser!!

Doc Farrell

AKQJ10 wrote:

Dear OP,

I 99% confident i know the two players in question and i play with them on a regular basis. The two lads may seem young cocky and arrogant but if you think about it they are young and you may have noticed that these players go in to play live cash all the time and have turned a few heads for the right reasons aswell. Sure i can understand how it may annoy you to see them doing well and then having a little moan when they get a beat like everyone else.

I know one of the players for definite as you've described him perfectly as calling out people's hands when there's a showdown and quoting percentages of hands but this is just the way he plays. Over the last 2/3 months has been very successful cashing in a major tourney and consistent final tables and top placings in anything from college crapshoots to well sructured big buy-in tourney's. Why change winning strategy??

With poker becoming so mainstream it is inevitable that many new types of players will emerge. Your just gonna have to concentrate on your own game rather than taking offence and moaning on the internet. Carry on letting it annoy you and you will become as he calls it a life-loser!!

Please consider reading the above posts. I wasn't attacking anyone, I was pointing out that the quickest way for an intelligent, successful player to lose a lot of money is to become too cocky, ignore his effect on others and make himself a target by his arrogance.

Its almost as if as soon as I mention anything there is a reactionary personal attack to follow. I'm really sorry I tried to offer advice , it'll be the last time. I'm gonna keep schtum like other good players have suggested.
gl.

Fatboydim

I recommend Treasure of The Sierra Madre Des.

Ste05

AKQJ10 wrote:

I am 99% confident I know the two players in question and i play with them on a regular basis.

Are you one of them?

AKQJ10 wrote:

Why change a winning strategy??

Because you can win more by;
(a) keeping the Fish in the game and not chasing them away; and
(b) not trying to educate them by teaching them how to play better, and helping them to realise it's not all luck. Is this not obvious???

Goodluck2me

i know who AKQJT is and its def not him... im surprised your not too timid to talk online even!

Hectorjelly

AKQJ10 wrote:

I know one of the players for definite as you've described him perfectly as calling out people's hands when there's a showdown and quoting percentages of hands but this is just the way he plays. Over the last 2/3 months has been very successful cashing in a major tourney and consistent final tables and top placings in anything from college crapshoots to well sructured big buy-in tourney's. Why change winning strategy??

Maybe because quoting %'s at showdowns will have no affect on your success but makes you look like a fcuking moron?

accensi0n

I'm surprised how many people get bothered by loudmouths...


If you think someone's a prick, then other people probably do too. In the end, he's the one with the problem. Don't let it affect you and create problems for yourself and your game.

smurph

Hectorjelly wrote:

Maybe because quoting %'s at showdowns will have no affect on your success but makes you look like a fcuking moron?

I was beginning to miss Gholimoli's short sharp straight to the point comments, but you are brillant HJ,.......... ps I agree with HJ

Lazare

Doc Farrell wrote:

Its almost as if as soon as I mention anything there is a reactionary personal attack to follow. I'm really sorry I tried to offer advice , it'll be the last time. I'm gonna keep schtum like other good players have suggested.
gl.

Des, I think there were more people on this thread agreeing with you (I do too) than attacking.

Don't let one or two put you off posting here, I really enjoy reading your posts/threads and would think it a shame if you stopped contributing.

Anyone agree?

Doc Farrell

tx chief,

no need for a poll PLEASE!,
jeese, talk about tapping the aquarium!
working ten hour shifts till after Christmas so i'm too tired to type, but thanks for supporting a paranoid over sensitive old man.
i'm hoping this thread will die faster than.... any other one I've contributed to recently, say no more....