the infernal apostrophe & s

flogen

I need help in settle a dispute and coming to terms with this in my head...

OK; here's my understanding of how you use the apostrophe in relation to the letter s...

when you're abreviating a word into another, such as it is or what is, you use the apostrophe (it's, what's etc.)
You don't use it for plurals, except when the word already ends in S, in which case it comes afterwards (Thomas'), I think anyway
You do use it in the possessive, so when an item belongs to Paul, it's Paul's... if it belongs to Thomas, it's Thomas'.
And finally, I always include terms like "last week's" or "Today's" to be possessive too, and so follow the same rules... (as in the item is belonging to last week or today)...

A friend disagrees, and says that you don't use apostrophes in the possessive, but it does apply in "last week's" and "today's" etc., which isn't the possessive.

Which is it (or are we both wrong?)...

Wishbone Ash

flogen wrote:

I need help in settle a dispute and coming to terms with this in my head...

OK; here's my understanding of how you use the apostrophe in relation to the letter s...

when you're abreviating a word into another, such as it is or what is, you use the apostrophe (it's, what's etc.)
You don't use it for plurals, except when the word already ends in S, in which case it comes afterwards (Thomas'), I think anyway
You do use it in the possessive, so when an item belongs to Paul, it's Paul's... if it belongs to Thomas, it's Thomas'.
And finally, I always include terms like "last week's" or "Today's" to be possessive too, and so follow the same rules... (as in the item is belonging to last week or today)...

A friend disagrees, and says that you don't use apostrophes in the possessive, but it does apply in "last week's" and "today's" etc., which isn't the possessive.

Which is it (or are we both wrong?)...

I'm with you flogen.

On a similar topic, why do so many posters on Boards feel the need to include an apostrophe in simple plural words? It's rampant in the Commuting and Transport Forum e.g. taxi's, buse's, car's, train's etc.

flogen

Cheers Wishbone... at least I'm not alone, even if I'm wrong.

I think I know where my friend is coming from now though... as the wiki tells me words like its (possessive) and ours, theirs his etc. don't use apostrophes, but once you move into names and objects, it does (generally)

Cake Fiend

There is NOTHING more annoying than someone who has no idea how to use apostrophe's!!
















Sorry, couldn't resist...

monkeyfudge

flogen wrote:

You do use it in the possessive, so when an item belongs to Paul, it's Paul's... if it belongs to Thomas, it's Thomas'.

Doesn't this actually imply that there is more than one Thomas? Thomas's would be the correct term for the possessive.

pickarooney

flogen wrote:

You don't use it for plurals, except when the word already ends in S, in which case it comes afterwards (Thomas'), I think anyway

No, when a word, such as bus, ends in an S it's generally pluralised by the addition of -es. Latinate words often become -i but never is an apostrophe used to indicate moreness. 'Thomases' would be correct if you were talking about several people with the same name.

Victor

pickarooney wrote:

No, when a word, such as bus, ends in an S it's generally pluralised by the addition of -es. Latinate words often become -i but never is an apostrophe used to indicate moreness. 'Thomases' would be correct if you were talking about several people with the same name.

I'm wondering.

Two couples:

Mr & Mrs Jones - keeping up with the Jones - the Jones's car
Mr & Mrs Thomas - keeping up with the Thomases - the Thomas's(?) car

pickarooney

"Keeping up with the Joneses" - they don't get special treatment just because they already have an -es.
Likewise, "The Joneses' car"
Adding an extra s after the apostrophe, though 'discourages' is not strictly incorrect.

monkeyfudge

I think the main problem is with written English. Everything is fine when you speak it aloud, but when it came to writing it down it was all down to a bunch of lads sitting around a printing press to decide how it should be written.

randylonghorn

monkeyfudge wrote:

I think the main problem is with written English. Everything is fine when you speak it aloud, but when it came to writing it down it was all down to a bunch of lads sitting around a printing press to decide how it should be written.

I love the image of a printers' conspiracy ...!

In this case, the secret lies in the history of the thing ... the apostrophe originates from an older usage in English, before (? I think!) the printing press, whereby "John Smith's fields" would have been written as "John Smith, his fields".

Through time, the 'his' was writtes as superscript after the owner's name, and became smaller and smaller, until the apostrophe was substituted.

Hence the origin of the apostrophe to denote (a) contraction (b) possession.

The most common mistake is with "its" vs. "it's": the apostrophe is used for the contraction of "it is" but not with the possessive, e.g. "the cat was licking its fur" ... I'd say 50% of people get that wrong.