Children and Gradings

yomchi

Just to carry on from a previous thread and to ask some opinions on this.

Last week I had a colour belt grading at my club which is ITF Taekwon-Do.
I have to bring some one else in to conduct the grading as per ITF rules you have to be a 4th degree to conduct examinations, and I am a 2nd degree.

Most of my guys at the club are between the ages of 7 and 12. The majority did really well, and then there was 2 of them who let nerves get the better of them.
The examiner 'failed' them. Thing is, the 2 that didn't pass were aged 8 and 9 years old.

This just doesn't sit right with me, telling a child that comes to Taekwon-Do for fun as a hobbie to interact with their friends and learn some exciting techniques - that they have failed or didn't pass or whatever way you want to word it.
In this case (and many cases) a decision was taken where the colour of a belt was put before the development and confidence of the child. The 'standard' was more important that the psyche of the child. I'm not blaming the examiner personaly, as they had to do a job as they saw fit and its a job many TKD examiners have to do.

To me the psychological damage, that can cause to a child out weighs significantly the examiners job to maintain ITF standard as they see fit, infact it doesn't even compare.
Now when I talk about psychological damage, i don't mean it will render the child insane where they end up in a home for the rest of their lives. What I mean is the very concept of 'failing' and being one of only 2 people to do so in a class of nearly 50 friends and family will leave an imprint on the subconcious. The development of the subconcious at that early age is what decides the blue print for how the child enters adolescence and onwards into adult hood. At that age the childs mind is unable to make sense of logic, as far as it is concerned it failed. This moment of failure bypasses the concious mind which is the logical part of the mind, the part that deciphers logic and works out the equation, and enters into the subconcious where it is stored forever and a day. Child psychologists will use the anaolgy of the subconcious of a child is like a blank disc ready to be filled with life experience at that early age.
You tell a child that they are useless and pathetic for long enough and they will grow into useless pathetic adults.

Anyway, this not so much a rant but an observation and something I think all sports coaches should bear in mind. Think of it this way, instead of failing the child, pass them (its only a colour on a bit of fabric) but hold them back on the next grading unless you are 100% sure they are confident enough to take it. That way they are happy to pass with everyone else but they know they have to train harder to accomplish the next one. Thats positive use of their little minds.

OPinions appreciated as ever

dlofnep

It all depends on what you want the belt to mean. If you want it to just be an incentive for the kid to keep training, but not hold a true technical merit, then by all means, give them the belt - But if you want the belt to be an accomplishment and to stand true to their ability, then don't promote them.

I understand where you are coming from, poor kid doesn't get the belt and is upset. But I think it's down to you as an instructor to give them the expectations of what the belt means and what it stands for.

In BJJ if an instructor gave a purple belt for someone who really wasn't ready for it, you'd have all the blue belts gunning for him or her, just so they could tap a purple belt. This is would be detriment to their training.

So ask yourself - What's the value of the belt?

spiral

Im in two minds about this , having lived in the states for a while where the concept of winning and losing , failure and sucess seems to not be taught to kids at all. Now at school sports days etc everyone participates but no one wins or loses . This is hardly preparing kids for real life.
On the otherhand I dont think we should go back to corporal punishment or belittle children in front of their peers either if they dont do so well.

Did the parents say anything to you Jon ?
At the end of the day if they didnt make the standard maybe they shouldnt get the belt but perhaps the examiner should have said something positive to take the sting out and encourage them to try again or tell them they should get it the next .
I mean everyone remembers not making the football team or the first 11 or whatever and being pissed off but when your young you get over it and either find something else you like or else you stay and try harder the next time .
The best coacghes trainers managers I remember as a kid were the ones who encouraged you and when you did something right let you know that you were improving. I certainly wouldnt have wanted to get onto a team just cause someone thought I would get upset.
Anyways just my opinion.

Clive

I can't believe the ITF has such a stupid rule. As a 2nd dan you should be grading the kids yourself and could avoid this problem, but I digress.

If kids are grading they should pass, regardless of performance of the day, IMO. You, as their instructor, know better than anyone where they are technically - rather than the pressurised snapshot a visitor sees under exam conditions.

If they're not up to scrath, you simply tell them the next grading is the one for them, not this one.

gymrabbit

i was actually watching a childrens grading (judo) the other day. the kids all trained with a certain coach, but there was a different coach doing the grading. he was very intimidating, i'm sure the parents watching would have even been intimated by him. i don't mean he was actually going out of his way to be a prick, but some people come across very naturally as no-nonsense.

anyway, the kids were all asked to perfrom techniques on a compliant opponent, however, the names of the techniques are all in japanease or pseudo-japanese to be honest. So the examiner says to 8 year old, show me "kesa ketame" and the kid shows him on another kid the way to do this hold down - scarf hold/judo hold down etc. the problem is, when the kids are expected to know about 8 techniques ippon seoi-nage, o goshi, kesa ketame, o soto gari, kami shiho getame etc. etc. can all begin to sound very similar and under the pressure of the exam situation the kids have a habit of ****ing up.

generally, you can allow for this. you can give a few hints. we expect that people going for the gradings at least know a certain set of moves but some people complain "i can't remember the names". and if you go second instead of first you can remember better.

anyway, a girl , probably about 10-12 got everything mixed up and the examiner gave her no help and she failed. it was yellow belt, a very low grade. i just dont think the system works.

i actually failed a grading under the same fellow. however, i was around 18 at the time so that's completely fair enough, if you can't pass the exam on the day you fail. simple as. but for children, meaningless exams that don't actually indicate ability accurately in the game of judo are bad for the sport.

i'd go with a bjj style of the coach takes each grader individually and runs through their techniques, does some randori/sparring. get's a feel for their ability. comparing them to the other kids would also be a good idea.

Tim_Murphy

I can't believe the ITF has such a stupid rule

Two words, control and money.

The idea of failing 8 and 9 years old doesn't really sit well with me, particularly in a TKD environment where the majority of people always pass. Seems a bit mean spirited IMO. It would be different if it was more like BJJ where grades are awarded and 'failing''as such isn't a big deal but you couldn't apply that type of system to TKD, it just wouldn't work.

At the end of the day I don't see how failing an 8 year old can lead to anything positive.

Think of it this way, instead of failing the child, pass them (its only a colour on a bit of fabric) but hold them back on the next grading unless you are 100% sure they are confident enough to take it. That way they are happy to pass with everyone else but they know they have to train harder to accomplish the next one.

That would make a lot more sense.

its only a colour on a bit of fabric

Exactly, at the end of the day what difference those their belt colour mean? Especially in something like TKD where belts are largely meaningless anyway.
Of course, another way to look at it might be that if you have to pay an examiner to travel to grade your students and he/she never fails anyone then you might start to wonder what exactly you are paying them for. :rolleyes:

yomchi

Thanks everyone for the input so far. Its encouraging as I thought I was starting to lose my marbles!

It would be different if it was more like BJJ where grades are awarded and 'failing''as such isn't a big deal but you couldn't apply that type of system to TKD, it just wouldn't work.

Not sure Tim, I think it might be better idea. From what I know BJJ gradings can just happen, ok let me explain that better.. say you've been training as a white belt for 2/3 years and you go to a seminar or training with a purple belt or above and they roll with you and watch you throughout training, if they think you are good enough, they may promote you..right?
This may be a less intimidating way of grading for kids.

I can't believe the ITF has such a stupid rule. As a 2nd dan you should be grading the kids yourself and could avoid this problem, but I digress.

If kids are grading they should pass, regardless of performance of the day, IMO. You, as their instructor, know better than anyone where they are technically - rather than the pressurised snapshot a visitor sees under exam conditions.

If they're not up to scrath, you simply tell them the next grading is the one for them, not this one

Yeh thats the ITF rules for you.
Thing is I know how hard these kids have trained to get where they are now. One joined when the club first opened and didn't know his feet from his hands, let alone left from right. He has improved something shocking over the 2 years, he was grading for a red tip which is a big step for him. The other guy that failed is really over weight, infact he's probably obese. He finds it hard to keep up with the other kids for obvious reasons, but he never misses training and is always first to start warming himself up and practicing - does he deserve to fail? IMO definately not.

Did the parents say anything to you Jon

Yes they said the kids feel intimidated. So much so one used to burst into tears during theory at the table, although this time round he held his chest out - advice from mammy I think!
The examiner can come across as a no nonsense type of person.

So ask yourself - What's the value of the belt

I think a seperate thread would be needed to discuss this! Indeed it is a huge question.
To a child, it means everything. As you get older you start to see them in a different light.

dudara

There's both right and wrong in this.

Firstly, I would be extremly hesitant to fail any child who is grading for a junior belt. It can be damaging to their psyche and make them feel alienated from their friends. Up to green belt or there abouts, it really shouldn't be a concern.

However, after a certain stage, standards have to be enforced. A previous instructor of mine would take the parents aside and suggest that the child not go forward for the grading, if he felt that the child was not up to it and needed the extra time. This way the child was saved the embarassment of failing a grading, and everyone who was allowed grade passed.

Nerves happen to all of us, regardless of what age we're at, and it's a bit tough that someone failed because of it, but having said that, maybe the external examiner saw some faults that you might have missed because of your familiarity with the kids.

Tim_Murphy

From what I know BJJ gradings can just happen, ok let me explain that better.. say you've been training as a white belt for 2/3 years and you go to a seminar or training with a purple belt or above and they roll with you and watch you throughout training, if they think you are good enough, they may promote you..right?

Thats sounds about right.

Not sure Tim, I think it might be better idea.

It is a better idea, no doubt about it really. It wouldn't work in TKD because a) the gradings aren't really performance based like BJJ and b) it would not be of benefit to the higher ups in the association. I doubt most of the high grades from an ITF would really grasp the idea anyway TBH, it would be alien to them.

This may be a less intimidating way of grading for kids.

It would also lead to more meaningful grades, but when you start to go down this road you start to move away from TKD as such.

Yes they said the kids feel intimidated. So much so one used to burst into tears during theory at the table,

I agree, its an imtimidating, non friendly situation, that is tough on kids, and probably a lot of adults as well. There are much much better ways of doing things IMO.

pma-ire

give me loads of money and saki and i'll grade your students jon

anyway! i do think that kinda of stuff is crappy! you don't have to be a 4th dan to grade colour belts!!

a lot of groups set it at you can grade people up to two grades below you.

my old tkd instructor graded my first club for it's first grading in a class format!! they were graded as a group and he walked around them watching how they performed. it was much easier on the students and very enjoyable.

you seem to have some questions to answer for yourself man!!

i think you know what makes sense in these situations, just go with your heart man!!

Colm_OReilly

For my monkeys (4-8) they receive 1-2 tags each month, when they've five tags they can go for their next belt, so they grade every five months. On their belt test, they do get pushed but they feel like the belt is worth it. I tell them it's based on personal improvement.

The Spartans have to earn their belts, and can step up after competition. It's a system I'm trying out which will bridge the gap between junior belts and a zhoo zhitsu grading system. It's making it more performance based. Since I told them this their performance in every class has improved. Also, they're more motivated for competition.

Millionaire

I think its a fairly not nice thing to fail kids who are like 8 years old and all their mates pass.

I think, to mirror what Colum said, some sort of a bridge between junior belts and the "real" grading system. Maybe when kids reach a certain age...maybe 12 for example...their junior tags, X amount of them would make you an orange belt for example as an adult. (using yellow, organe, green, blue, brown, etc system of what every your style uses). of tell them their are going to get their belt , but they must train a little harder, and can do the grading in a few months, and the instructor ensures they know enough to pass, when the time comes.

I d say it would be very dissapointing to a Kid, and indeed to be give your bad news in from of the whole club. and then next week, all your mates got their new green belts and you don't.

as a kid i hated (I still hate it with a passion to these day soccer) soccer and football, and as a result was always the last Kid picked for teams in PE class, and the team would not even want me, as i was so bad at all football or basket ball games. Me and a few others who were equally useless, suffered years of humilation and embarrasment and rejection as we had no skills for this sport.
Now to treat kids like this in any sport, is just plain, wrong and cruel. and it did not feel one bit nice at all.
though many years later and not too long ago, when I am fit, in great shape from years of steady MA training, and I went to my home town, and all the lads who were Captains of the teenage teams, and give me and my mates hard times as we sucked at football, were massively fat, out of shape with prize winning beer guts. so it felt great to to let them see the tables had well turned! LOL!!! ;-)

Baggio...

Interesting post Jon... I totally agree with you.

Failing kids is pathetic - I don't agree with his coaching methods. I could never understand how failing a grade would encourage someone to continue on with martial arts as a hobby, especially if they suffered from a touch of nerves.

I knew a guy who was grading for his 2nd Brown Belt in Shotokan. The guy failed his grading through nerves. Ironically he was a better martial arts than most of the Black Belts in the club... go figure.

gymrabbit

dont forget this kids go to school everyday and are familar with the concept of tests, passing and failing. i don't think a balanced child should be scarred for life due to failing these things. i don't think there is a problem with failing children, i just think it should be done as sensitively as possible. the grading aspect of a system should not be the major issue. i think an easy way to solve this is to give tags to failees. so if they pass - yellow to orange belt, if they fail, yellow to yellow belt orange tag.

yomchi

think an easy way to solve this is to give tags to failees

This may may make it worse though. Now they are identified as fails.
Personally I think holding them back at the next grading is sufficient, at least this way they understand they have to work for it.

Unpossible

I know its not TKD but why didnt you do something similar to what our guy does when grading.
If you didnt make the cut (usually this means you didnt do your technique within the time limit or your technique was a little dodgy), you are told where you are going wrong then you are brought outside by your instructor while the other gradings are going on. Your instructor helps relax you and goes through your techniques again, then when everyone has finished their gradings and are taking their breaks/water before the training camp (held after every grading), the grading instructor looks at your attempt again (this time no-one else is watching, and they guy tries to be friendly).

Baggio...

gymrabbit wrote:

dont forget this kids go to school everyday and are familar with the concept of tests, passing and failing. i don't think a balanced child should be scarred for life due to failing these things..

That's a good point...But then you could say, why have more pressure put upon them. Especially as it's only a hobby school kids go through enough these days.
Plus at the end of the day it's only one instructors view - I never put a whole lot of faith in grading.

Cake Fiend

Baggio... wrote:

I knew a guy who was grading for his 2nd Brown Belt in Shotokan. The guy failed his grading through nerves. Ironically he was a better martial arts than most of the Black Belts in the club... go figure.

Here's another angle to consider: if he was that nervous during a grading, what use would his skills be if he were actually attacked?

Maybe a bit of pressure during a grading serves a purpose?

gymrabbit wrote:

i don't think a balanced child should be scarred for life due to failing these things

I'm no psychologist, but I'd wager getting a child used to coasting through life would actually be more damaging in the long run.

gymrabbit

What? they're children. they're not going to get attacked. They don't need to defend themselves with TKD moves.

yomchi

Here's another angle to consider: if he was that nervous during a grading, what use would his skills be if he were actually attacked

um i don't think you could really compare these feelings.

i don't think a balanced child should be scarred for life due to failing these things. i don't think there is a problem with failing children, i just think it should be done as sensitively as possible

But how is one to know who or what defines a balanced child? As an istructor you don't know what kind of background the child comes from. Society today will ensure that the child will endure some hardship of some kind. Point being, they come to TKD class for fun. If they didn't have fun, they wouldn't come. That doesn't mean I don't push them during training, I do. I push them hard to be the best they can be, never to give up if they feel tired etc etc. They spar, and if one gets a bloody lip they get no sympathy here. Bear in mind its all done in the best of spirit and the they thrive on it.

Then the grading comes and the atmosphere changes. All of a sudden it ain't fun any more. More and more at each grading, kids suddenly have colds or the car broke down on the way, and they couldn't make it. Its more like the first day of school.
Roll on 4th degree!

snicky

i am sure that the two kids who failed will leave the organisation for being rejected and who could blame them,rejection is a hard thing especially for kids.i think a grading should only be part of getting your belt attendance,attitude technique and input from the teaching instructor should all come into consideration. could people please leave their opinions of my answer if it was good or not,thank you

Tim_Murphy

Here's another angle to consider: if he was that nervous during a grading, what use would his skills be if he were actually attacked?

An 8 years old kid isn't going to be defending himself using TKD, or anything else really.

Then the grading comes and the atmosphere changes. All of a sudden it ain't fun any more.

Exactly, it's not a nice atmosphere really and IMO all the formality does not achieve anything, other than giving the examiners a sense of self importance. I remember seeing people getting really stressed out trying to learn korean terms off by heart, whats the point?

Roll on 4th degree!

I'll grade to 4th dan soon and I'll grade them for you, it'll cost you though!

BobbyOLeary

In the Kenpo club where I train I've never seen any children (or adults for that matter) fail a grading. We usually have a pre-grading a week or two before hand where we go through everything, kind of like a dress rehersal. Its only done with the club instructor and its very easy-going. It gives the instructor and the candidates a chance to see if the standard is good enough. I've seen people told to wait a few weeks and try again, better than going in and failing IMO.

Failing kids won't help IMO, theres only a few kids who get spurred on by humiliation and defeat, the rest just get annoyed and maybe quit. Who wants that? We run a tip system for kids, 8 tips per belt then a test. They learn the set moves/techniques/forms for the tip and then they show it to the instructor at the end of class, the instructor either says yes or no (obviously a bit nicer than that!) and the child either moves on or tries harder.

It seems to work well enough in our club, the kids usually get pretty excited about tips and by the time a grading rolls around you've been tested a lot already so its not a big a step.

Hmmm, dunno if that helps or answers any of your questions!

john kavanagh

Jon wrote:

um i don't think you could really compare these feelings.

the chemical reaction to stressful situations is always the same. whether its pre-fight, pre-public speech, pre-grading etc the under developed reptillian brain reacts the same way, flooding your body with chemicals preparing you for an attack. i think the main benefit of competition, from a SD perspective, is that it gets you somewhat used to that feeling. geoff T talks a lot about this in his books.

....in saying all that my opinion on kids getting grades is of course they should just get them based on attendance and attitude - not regurgitating a number of set techniques/foreign words.

yomchi

john kavanagh wrote:

the chemical reaction to stressful situations is always the same. whether its pre-fight, pre-public speech, pre-grading etc the under developed reptillian brain reacts the same way, flooding your body with chemicals preparing you for an attack. i think the main benefit of competition, from a SD perspective, is that it gets you somewhat used to that feeling. geoff T talks a lot about this in his books.

....in saying all that my opinion on kids getting grades is of course they should just get them based on attendance and attitude - not regurgitating a number of set techniques/foreign words.

The amount of adrenilin dispatched by the responsible gland is of course in proportion to what the body determins as a threat. Yes it is the same response but in very different amounts due to the very different circumstances.
On another note, was the system of belt gradings something that came from the eastern countries along with Karate, Kung Fu etc etc?

Cake Fiend

Tim_Murphy wrote:

An 8 years old kid isn't going to be defending himself using TKD, or anything else really

I meant that as a direct reply to Baggio's tangent example rather than as part of the main thread.

Jon wrote:

um i don't think you could really compare these feelings.

Actually, I think they're almost directly comparable.

Edit: beaten by JK.

Baggio...

Cake Fiend wrote:

I meant that as a direct reply to Baggio's tangent example rather than as part of the main thread.

Aye...but Murphy made a valid point.

FiannaGym.com

The whole thing should be really hard, it should be a stranger grading the kid, in a mad gown of red and black silk, he should never speak just do little nods, and write stuff. The kids heart should be in their mouths, and those heart should be beating fast. They should know that the grading is coming and train extra hard for 2 weeks prior. They should leave the grading totally spent and satisfied that they passed.

It should be hard, but they should always pass because they shouldn't even be grading unless they are ready to pass.

This is the fine line coaches, parents, teachers etc thread. You need to absolutetly challenge the child, expose them to dangers but ultimately protect them from danger.

By the way, I'm sure I have a mad headband with a rising sun on it and a gi with cut off sleeves, if you want me to "grade" your students in future haha.

Peace

Millionaire

Jon wrote:

On another note, was the system of belt gradings something that came from the eastern countries along with Karate, Kung Fu etc etc?

As far as I know,traditionally MA had no belts nor grades(china, okaniawan karate), then when the Japs got Karate from Okaniawa they put grades in. white, brown and black.

Of course when the Yanks got their hands on MA... there where all the money end of it come in with multiple grades.

I have been in Thailand almost a year to the exact day, and most days of this year has been in muay thai camps, and I have not seen any thai kids going for grades! LOL!!! but they might have 20 fights under their belts (sorry they have no belts..not even a white one) by 12 or 13 years of age!

Dyr

Millionaire wrote:

As far as I know,traditionally MA had no belts nor grades(china, okaniawan karate), then when the Japs got Karate from Okaniawa they put grades in. white, brown and black.

AFAIR the belt grading thing is from judo rather than karate. Though the coloured belt system is possibly from european judo clubs back in the early days.

norrie rugger

i have always thought that is was wrong to grade children, on two fronts

1/ The child in general does not have the body structure or coordination to really hold the grade
2/ The children usually join as a hobby and it should be fun.

i have been in a school where children were welcomed and trained but they would not be graded untill they turned 15. come the time they were 15 they flew up the grades as they were far ahead of newcomers of that age.

the advantage of this system was that the gradings ment something as the children were physically capable of the gradings and mentally tough enough to take critisism.

Unpossible

i have been in a school where children were welcomed and trained but they would not be graded untill they turned 15. come the time they were 15 they flew up the grades as they were far ahead of newcomers of that age.

I think the kids will still need some kind of goals to aim for. You cant say to a 9 or 10 year old "practice as hard as you can and in around 5-6 years you can try get a yellow belt"

Why not just grade them slower than older kids? eg one belt colour per year*, that should insure they are definatly ready.

*assuming that you normally grade for up to two belts per year

Roper

Just to give y'all the K.O. Martial Arts front on grades and gradings. I have two classes, one, The Wolfpack is for kids between 6 and 10. These guys go for a grade with just me grading them. Its like a class but they're always dead serious without me telling them to be, its actually quite funny to watch them furrow their brows! However I don't get them to do a list of techniques or any of that. They just play the same games or do some escapes and padwork as they would in class. At this age, I give belts for attendance, attitude/effort, and for the test itself about 33% each if you get me. The Wild Wolves are 11-15 and they're given belts based on attitude, attendance, and improvement. At this age I start to hold them back if they're not getting any better, in part because they understand a bit more and at this age if they're given say a brown belt and are getting owned in training by the noobs, it would be a bit of a shake for them. Failure isn't going to happen as I grade them myself and wouldn't let them go if I thought they were going to fail. Thats not the point of the junior belt system we have in place for kids. Nor is it the mythical black belt or anything like that.

Anyway Jon in answer to your original question, one of the reasons I quit TKD organisations was all the rubbish surrounding gradings, and how harsh they would be on 8 year olds while they'd let adults slip by because they were interested in instructing or something, or just because they liked them. Crazy.

buck65

I kinda agree with you there unpossible, I reckon kids should be graded at a far slower level.
I have had 4 gradings so far and each time kids have graded before the adults so we got a good luck at them and to be honest apart from a few they are all fairly poor - I know if the adults performed like that in training or in grading we would fail.
I dont blame the kids because they have probably alot going on (school drama soccer whatever) but when I see the work I have to put in for a grading (rightly so) and a blue belt or red belt who is about 10 walks past me I scratch my head.
Saw a black belt grading in Cork a few months ago and there was 3/4 kids there under 14 yerars old!!
In fairness our instructor says that after green belt people will be failed if not up to scratch and rightly so .
Maybe this is correct?
Why all these belts anyway why not 2 belts novice and intermediate and then black? surely as JK said attendance and attitude is more important than ability to perform a kata smoothly?

Cake Fiend

buck65 wrote:

Why all these belts anyway why not 2 belts novice and intermediate and then black?

a) £££
b) €€€
c) $$$
d) all of the above

gymrabbit

Roper wrote:

Just to give y'all the K.O. Martial Arts front on grades and gradings. I have two classes, one, The Wolfpack is for kids between 6 and 10. These guys go for a grade with just me grading them. Its like a class but they're always dead serious without me telling them to be, its actually quite funny to watch them furrow their brows! However I don't get them to do a list of techniques or any of that. They just play the same games or do some escapes and padwork as they would in class. At this age, I give belts for attendance, attitude/effort, and for the test itself about 33% each if you get me. The Wild Wolves are 11-15 and they're given belts based on attitude, attendance, and improvement. At this age I start to hold them back if they're not getting any better, in part because they understand a bit more and at this age if they're given say a brown belt and are getting owned in training by the noobs, it would be a bit of a shake for them. Failure isn't going to happen as I grade them myself and wouldn't let them go if I thought they were going to fail. Thats not the point of the junior belt system we have in place for kids. Nor is it the mythical black belt or anything like that.

Anyway Jon in answer to your original question, one of the reasons I quit TKD organisations was all the rubbish surrounding gradings, and how harsh they would be on 8 year olds while they'd let adults slip by because they were interested in instructing or something, or just because they liked them. Crazy.

Sounds like an excellent system barry.