Looking forward to 20 years of litigation

LegacyUser

To cut a long story short I’m a guy who was in a relatively short-term relationship that one day bore unexpected fruit.

This is not the end of the World. Neither of us are spring chickens any more (both in our mid-thirties), so it’s not like we’re a pair of kids who can’t cope. We’re also (independent of the pregnancy) still together. So ultimately one would hope that either we work out as a couple or we don’t, but at least if it were the latter we would at least be civil enough to consider the well being of all concerned.

The problem arises in that, to begin with, the mother is highly strung. This is not down to the pregnancy as she was highly strung prior to this and our, albeit short, relationship had always been full of fights.

From the onset of the pregnancy she felt alone, which I can understand as I was not exactly somersaulting for joy over my impending fatherhood. Given this I began to try to help out, or at least get involved in the future of the child. In practical terms this is not easy as I work very long hours and am rarely home before 10pm. Even at work I’m not really in a position to make private phone calls, especially of such a personal nature, so my assistance has been to date resourcing information for her, in part via friends who’ve gone through pregnancy and in part via the Web (such as information on the various options and entitlements she can avail of). I know it’s not ideal, and that I need to do more, but I am making a genuine effort.

To begin with it became apparent before very long that my role was rapidly being relegated to ‘dad on my terms’ in her eyes. This is to say that we could make decisions as a couple, but only so long as they concurred with her view. Actually, my view is not even asked. It has reached a point where I don’t know if it is really worth my while expressing it with regard to the child’s future as it has become blatantly obvious that it would simply be moot.

On this subject, and speaking morally rather than legally, I accept that the vast bulk of responsibility after birth tends to fall upon the mother and this should afford her certain preferential rights, however to extend this to say that the father should have no rights as a result, especially as she will be making decisions that will affect the futures of all three involved, is another thing.

All this has naturally caused increased friction, with heated arguments (often screaming matches) taking place at least once or twice a week. As things stand the relationship is such that it is quite probable that not only will we not remain together, but that any kind of future relationship between us will be acrimonious to say the least. It is this scenario, of twenty years or more of rows and legal battles and shattered lives that I would want to avoid. I don’t think it is fair on either me or the mother and frankly either the child were it forced to grow up in such an environment. This is, BTW, probably the only scenario where I would think it best not to keep the child.

Of course, this is a moot opinion, as the mother has no intention to give up the child for adoption under any circumstances.

All of this of course is bad enough until the mother’s mother enters the picture. She is, in short, a nut. Only the mother (of my child) still speaks with her, as other relatives, including her son, have disowned her – and even there the relationship is tenuous. My first contact with her was after she had clandestinely read her daughter’s emails and had sent me a ‘protective’ email threatening me. Not a good start. I finally spoke to her recently, which is what has finally caused me to almost completely lose faith in the situation. The discussion concentrated on how the pregnancy was a divine gift, how certain saints were going to look after the situation and that if we even considered adoption, there would be “war”. She also wants her daughter to move in with her (essentially control her). I am convinced that this woman would be a deeply negative and harmful influence on any child.

Unfortunately the ‘worst case scenario’ is one that increasingly seems to be the one that will take place. In it the mother and I will have an acrimonious break-up, possibly aided by her own mother’s meddling. This in turn will result in one of two scenarios, either I spend the next twenty years in the courts attempting not only have rights to my child, but also to get my child out of an environment that I am certain would emotionally and socially scar them for life. Alternatively I can walk away. I can save myself the heartache of all that conflict, pay maintenance and move on with my life.

If there are other options and other things I can try I would really be hugely grateful to anyone who could share them, in particular anyone who has been through this. If not I could really do with hearing people’s views on what, and how, I should do. Thank you for reading.

Black Swan

Counselling for you both (together)? To assist towards a mutually beneficial resolution of the problems mentioned?

Bazzy

Firstly,

It is not the most pleasent situation to be in (understatment), but as the father of the child there are certain rights that you do and will have.

The interfering mother will not help the situation at all and the fact that she wants the daughter to move in is a very very negative move.

I think you now need to sit and talk with the mother to be and ask if she sees how things will pan out and what the future holds. From what your saying this may be near impossible , But you need to bear in mind that she is pregnant and stress will not help with the pregnancy so try avoid fighting it may make things worse.

I know you may feel as if your over a barrell as it were but you do have rights.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/relationships/civil_relationships/legal_guardianship_and_unmarried_couples.html

Above is the link on the government website with regards to your situation.


I relly wish you the best with whatever happens in the future.

I know walking away and paying maintenance would be the good option but at least try fight some of it. Someday your son/daughter may think you for this.

Bazzy

Beruthiel

end_of_line wrote:

This in turn will result in one of two scenarios, either I spend the next twenty years in the courts attempting not only have rights to my child, but also to get my child out of an environment that I am certain would emotionally and socially scar them for life.

Then it is more important than ever that your child sees another way of life and that you remain in contact. Your child has a right to know it's father.

I very much doubt there is any chance of you removing the child from the environment. Legally, you are not married and you have no rights towards the child as such under irish law.

Alternatively I can walk away. I can save myself the heartache of all that conflict, pay maintenance and move on with my life.

You could.
But being a parent brings a responsibility that as an adult you cannot just throw aside. I am a firm believer in this.
You will be the parent of a child, with that comes heartache and pain. But it also brings love and a bond so strong that it cannot be explained to anyone until they go through it themselves.
You will grow to love your child, you would die for it. Do the right thing and make it your aim in life to give yourself to this child. The rewards will be ten fold.
Jobs come and go, everything in life is transient, but if you make the effort the bond between you and your child will last through everything else.
I assure you, any hassle you go through will be worth it.

Your g/f's mother sounds like a nightmare but there is nothing you can do about that. I would suggest you stop fighting with your g/f.
I expect you are thinking of finishing with her because of her behaviour? Think long and hard about that before proceeding. Try talking to her first. Does she understand the importance of having her childs father in it's life? Try to make her understand this if she doesn't.
Whatever choice you make with regards to her, this is not your childs fault and they shouldn't have to pay the price for their parents splitting up. Nor should your anger towards each other be taken out on the poor little thing.
It always saddens me how two grown adults can do this to their children and not even realise the damage they do.
Hang in there.
Best of luck.

MadMoss

end_of_line wrote:

T Alternatively I can walk away. I can save myself the heartache of all that conflict, pay maintenance and move on with my life.

I was in a very similar situation about 12 years ago. I think that if you walk away you will only save your self of a certain type of heartache, which will be replaced with a new different kind of heartache.

I realise the difficulties invloved in maintaining a relationship with the mother of your child when you may not be see things on the from the same wavelength. I can say that if you intend on have a relationship with your child , that the ideal relationship between you and the childs mother will eventually be reached. This may be just a civil relationship, but you will eventually get there.

I reckon its worth having a relationship with the mother and the child in the long run, for all three concerned. What kind of relationship this becomes will be up to everyone invovled.

(BTW the mother-in-law sounds un-manageable)

For me, looking back now, it was well worth the effort.

I wish you and family all the best.

b3t4

Op, could you change your job so that you don't have to work so many long hours?

What I can see from your post is that your partner is a little lost, lonely and has turned to her mother as she is a familiar constant in her life be that a good or bad thing. I know you are doing your best with providing documentation and that but I do believe that your partner is probably looking for a bit more from you. She is more than likely scared as well, to add to things.

Put the shoe on the other foot and try to see why your partner may be behaving the way she is. There is a reason but neither or ye are communicating well what's wrong if the screaming matches are anything to go by.

I do believe that couples counselling might help here. Ye are both going through a lot and not trying everything possible now, to prevent 20yrs of litigation, is better than giving up, surely.

Best of luck OP you don't have an easy task in front of you but the results will be more than worth it if all goes well
A.

letterman

Well OP, at least from the title of the thread you seem to have retained a sense of humour. Long may it last.

Can't really give too much advice as its not a scenario I would imagine too many people have everbeen in.

If you were in the relationship long enough to procreate and still be around to hear the news of the pregnancy then there is some connection between you 2 at least.

How to cope with the emotional status of the mum to be... God knows.What I would suggest is that you be as available as your circumstances will allow you to be, when and where you are needed. Nobody, regardless of how you may think they feel, will want to go through this on their own.

If you want to retain any form of connection to your child, then you will need to put up with this and the interferwence from the m-in-law from hell as well.

In the long run, think about your child and the connection that can exist between you 2 in spite of the obstacles that you may face now. The mother may even learn to appreciate you for it and this may make the whole experience more tolerable and rewarding.

Good luck

Victor

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Counselling for you both (together)? To assist towards a mutually beneficial resolution of the problems mentioned?

Separate and then together is the usual procedure.

Relationship counselling for man and woman, family counselling for mother and daughter.

Kernel32

I am a father of two young kids. The first thing that jumped out at me in your posting was that your lifestyle has to changes or you will not be a father to this child. This is regardless of being with the childs mother or not. I see a lot of talk but no action. If you don't come home until 10pm how can you possible expect to be any type of father. Being a parent does mean having to change your life. If you want to be proactive then reduce your hours and do it now. If you can't then get a different job and do it now. Don't wait until the child is born or you won't do it. If you can't do that much for your child then whats the point of all the rest of it? Maybe if you did that your partner would recognize you are taking action instead of talking about it and it could lead to a better relationship.

Slutmonkey57b

Agreed. Don't get into the trap of "I HAVE to work these hours or else". The only "Or Else" once you're a parent is "I have to look after my kid". The job will mean nothing if you end up not seeing your child.

Beruthiel

Kernel32 wrote:

you want to be proactive then reduce your hours and do it now. If you can't then get a different job and do it now. Don't wait until the child is born or you won't do it. If you can't do that much for your child then whats the point of all the rest of it? Maybe if you did that your partner would recognize you are taking action instead of talking about it and it could lead to a better relationship.

Totally agree.
I gave up work for the first 6 years of my daughters life. I was in a position at the time where I could do that. I did it because I know those are the most important years and I wanted to put the effort in when it most counted. Having kids means effort and sacrifices on the part of any parent.

Sangre

Briefly, unmarried father basically means no rights in Irish law. Legally you have pretty much no weight in this situation.

On a side note, if you're always working and never parenting, should you deserve a say?

iguana

What I've noticed from you post is that you speak a lot about your rights, but nothing about your responsibilities. If you want to be involved in the child's life then you need to actually get involved. I'm sorry but saying I have to work long hours all the time isn't good enough. Are you going to say that to your child in 6 years time when he/she has a birthday party or a football match you can't make?

You need to re-examine your priorities. Your situation has changed now and you need to change with it. The things were the most important in your life now have to come after your child and it's mother. Otherwise you don't have any moral rights to have your wishes listened to, let alone legal ones.

AnnaStezia

Apologies in advance if I have missed the point and or this sounds crass but no offence is intended.

First principles first. Are you sure that you are the father ?

If you are not 100% sure that you are the father you are going to torture yourself and possibly go on to make serious decisions based upon false premises.

If you can get DNA verification (legitimately as distinct from surreptitiously !) that you are the father you can then go about the more serious business of becoming the daddy !!

LegacyUser

Thanks all who answered. To respond to some of the points:

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Counselling for you both (together)? To assist towards a mutually beneficial resolution of the problems mentioned?

Yes. Very good point and essential at this stage.

Bazzy wrote:

I think you now need to sit and talk with the mother to be and ask if she sees how things will pan out and what the future holds. From what your saying this may be near impossible , But you need to bear in mind that she is pregnant and stress will not help with the pregnancy so try avoid fighting it may make things worse.

I would not be entirely pessimistic. I’m certainly not ready to throw in the towel on the relationship, let alone my child, just yet.

I know you may feel as if your over a barrell as it were but you do have rights.

Not many it would appear. Thanks for the links though.

Beruthiel wrote:

Then it is more important than ever that your child sees another way of life and that you remain in contact. Your child has a right to know it's father.

I agree, however without joint custody (which she will not give) I will essentially have no rights whatsoever to do this. Any connection, any access, any contact will be entirely at her discretion. This leaves me in the situation, given her increasingly belligerent nature and the destructive influence of her mother whereby to attempt to fight for any of these rights will be a long and both financial and emotionally costly affair.

But being a parent brings a responsibility that as an adult you cannot just throw aside. I am a firm believer in this.

Unfortunately one of those responsibilities is knowing when your own attempted involvement becomes a negative influence itself. If we find ourselves in an acrimonious relationship where any involvement by me requires battle upon legal battle, then it becomes questionable whether it will do more harm than good to the child, let alone the parents.

How many unhappy or abusive marriages continue “for the good of the children”? And how many of those marriages really are good for the children, let alone anyone else? Responsibility sometimes means putting a child up for adoption because it will have a far better life in another family. As such responsibility is all too often the fig leaf of the selfish.

I would suggest you stop fighting with your g/f.

How would you suggest I do that? As you’ve essentially admitted yourself, here in the past, that is not always possible - otherwise you yourself would still be happily married.

It always saddens me how two grown adults can do this to their children and not even realise the damage they do.

I realise the damage that we could do to all three of us. At this stage it may simply be a case of choosing the path that causes the least damage in the long term.

MadMoss wrote:

I was in a very similar situation about 12 years ago. I think that if you walk away you will only save your self of a certain type of heartache, which will be replaced with a new different kind of heartache.

I agree, but as I said I don’t think there’s any painless solution here.

I can say that if you intend on have a relationship with your child , that the ideal relationship between you and the childs mother will eventually be reached. This may be just a civil relationship, but you will eventually get there.

This is what I am hoping for, however given both her character and – more importantly – her mother’s – this is becoming increasingly unlikely.

(BTW the mother-in-law sounds un-manageable)

In fairness to the mother, she’s warned me and I’d already had my original run in, but that was nothing compared to speaking to her.

Put the shoe on the other foot and try to see why your partner may be behaving the way she is. There is a reason but neither or ye are communicating well what's wrong if the screaming matches are anything to go by.

I agree, however whether we can find a reasonable compromise, with or without counselling, is another matter. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the situation is hopeless, but it’s been going on for a while and we are now reaching a point of no return where it will be impossible to salvage; civil or otherwise.

Kernel32 wrote:

If you don't come home until 10pm how can you possible expect to be any type of father.

TBH, that’s really my business what type of father I should be and besides the point here. We are not married or co-habituating or, frankly, even in a happy relationship. Added to this I have the concern of the mother’s mother who is basically clinically insane. Discussing lifestyle choices or career changes are a bit down my list of priorities, as any change is not going to solve the problems at hand.

Beruthiel wrote:

I gave up work for the first 6 years of my daughters life. I was in a position at the time where I could do that.

Good for you, but neither the mother or I have that luxury.

iguana wrote:

What I've noticed from you post is that you speak a lot about your rights, but nothing about your responsibilities.

That would be because I have no problem with the latter, only with the former.

If you want to be involved in the child's life then you need to actually get involved. I'm sorry but saying I have to work long hours all the time isn't good enough.

As I’ve already said, I’m not really asking for parenting advice, I’m asking for advice on a potentially destructive situation for all persons involved.

AnnaStezia wrote:

Are you sure that you are the father ?

I’m pretty sure. Certainly I’m not so paranoid that I want to shell out 2k for a paternity test simply because there may be a slight chance that it’s not mine.

In conclusion, I think mutual counselling is probably a good step forward. If it comes to my being an active father, I doubt I’ll be the best in the World, but neither shall I be the worst – In this regard I’ll simply try to do my best. However at present the problem is not whether I’m going to be a good father or not, but in the circumstances whether either of us are better off putting the child up for adoption or keeping it or whether I should be a father at all given the rather extreme circumstances of the situation.

Nonetheless, thanks to all who responded.

iguana

end_of_line wrote:

As I’ve already said, I’m not really asking for parenting advice, I’m asking for advice on a potentially destructive situation for all persons involved.

They go hand in hand. My husband works in film and regularly works insane hours. But it has been made very clear by me that when we decide to have a child that this will have to change. If I was pregnant and he was working those hours we would have a bloody destructive situation on our hands. Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't mean that your behaviour isn't a factor in your problems.

LegacyUser

iguana wrote:

They go hand in hand. My husband works in film and regularly works insane hours. But it has been made very clear by me that when we decide to have a child that this will have to change. If I was pregnant and he was working those hours we would have a bloody destructive situation on our hands. Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't mean that your behaviour isn't a factor in your problems.

But we're not married and, for that matter, we're unlikely to be together in the next year or two (not simply because of the present acrimony but also because we probably wouldn't be together now were it not for the child – please don’t suggest we should simply for the sake of the child) and in that context you're basing your opinion on two radically different situations, so I really fail to see how yours even recognises, let alone addresses the problem that is facing us.

iguana

Even if you aren't married or even a couple you are the father of this child, a bit more emotional support wouldn't go astray. You talk about how you are unable/unwilling to be there for your child's mother right now, yet you resent her for turning to her mother as you don't believe her mother is a suitable choice of person to have close influence over your child's upbringing.

But your child's mother most likely needs somebody around, so perhaps if you made yourself more available she would get more of the support she needs from you instead. If you want to be an influence in your child's life you need to start as you mean to go on.

I'm not saying this to get to you but if you honestly believe the relationship won't work then the best thing for the three of you is for you to form a decent friendship with your girlfriend and that will mean being there for her right now a bit more than you appear to be.

Kernel32

TBH, that’s really my business what type of father I should be and besides the point here. We are not married or co-habituating or, frankly, even in a happy relationship. Added to this I have the concern of the mother’s mother who is basically clinically insane. Discussing lifestyle choices or career changes are a bit down my list of priorities, as any change is not going to solve the problems at hand

You are missing the point. You don't know what relationship you will have with you partner in the future or if you will have any relationship. But the one thing that is inevitable barring any unforeseen problems is that you are going to be a father. In my opinion you are concentrating on the wrong issue. Concentrate on preparing yourself and your life to be the best that you can be for your child and the rest will follow a natural course.

Also with all due respect, we all have family and relationship issues to deal with. My father isn't the most stable person is neither is my mother in law but you deal with it in a way thats in the best interest of those who depend on you.

Sleepy

If you're not co-habiting with the mother and unprepared to cut back your work hours you may as well just agree the maintenance figure now tbh. You've next to no rights under Irish law and the further you stand back from your partner the further into her mother's arms you drive her.

A pregnant woman is about as stable as nitro-glycerine, unless you're providing the support she needs, she's going to find it elsewhere.

Beruthiel

end_of_line wrote:

How would you suggest I do that? As you’ve essentially admitted yourself, here in the past, that is not always possible - otherwise you yourself would still be happily married.

You have missed my point. I may be divorced from my daughters father, but at the time and all through her life she came first in both our lives and we were old enough to maintain a relationship with each other in order that she was still brought up as well as we both could manage. We did that by discussion. This is what I'm suggesting to you, that whatever the outcome of your relationship, if ye could somehow come to a mutual decision with regards to your child.

Good for you, but neither the mother or I have that luxury

No need to be sarky.
I was not telling you that you should do the same thing, it is a privilage to be in a situation like that.
What I was suggesting by my comment is that whatever is within your power to do, you should push yourself to make it happen.

I hope the counselling can at least bring you both to some sort of mutual agreement.
good luck