Stealing... a moral puzzle

nobodythere

I have a bit of a moral puzzle for you:

If you could take 1 cent from every bank account in the world and keep it for yourself, is it wrong to do it? Let's assume that nobody notices, nobody finds out and nobody is affected by this transaction.

Usually when you take something it's at the direct expense of someone else, but when you can make a million without hurting anyone but still stealing it from people, it gets a bit puzzling.

I'm a bit of a utilitarian consequentialist (oh yeah I know a big word! )
as in consequences should be what dictates our actions - and I say as long as everyone doesn't catch on to it, it's not really wrong, even though it sort of feels wrong.

I'm interested in people who think it's wrong but at the same time would do it

Dades

I don't think you can judge the morality of your own actions in isolation.

You need to think what the consequences would be if 10, or 100 or 1,000 people did what you did. For something to morally sound, it must be open to everyone to do without negative consequences.

Take the whole green issue. A person who drives a car adds a negligible amount of CO2 to the atmosphere, but motorists as a group have a huge effect. Because of this, each individual (so we're told) has a responsibility to pollute less.

McGinty

I think the atheist gives a very good arguement, but I'll also add my 2cent worth as well. You state that taking 1cent of every bank is not wrong if your not caught, but may feel wrong. I would argue that the action and the feeling have to work in tandem, that is if something feels wrong then it is wrong, because even though no one else will know what your doing, you yourself will, and we have to live with ourselves, it is much easier to hide your actions with other people but nigh on impossible to yourself. If the person doesn't feel what they are doing is wrong, then in their mind they are not committing any crime, sin or error, and often there is something mentally wrong with such people.

Cake Fiend

Technically: Yes.

Would I feel guilty about it if I could do it: No.

aidan24326

Yes strictly speaking it is morally wrong as you're still stealing, and like the Atheist said a seemingly harmless crime in isolation can become anything but harmless if alot of people get involved.

However, would I do it if I could definitely get away with it? Absolutely, without any hesitation.

In fact people have tried this in the past. One teenage hacker in America actually got away with it for ages, had amassed (and spent) tens of thousands. He only got caught (and this is true) because some old granny noticed a cent taken from her account (presumably on her statement) and asked the bank about it. Damn those grannies!

I guess very few people are going to bother asking the bank about 1 cent, so the chances of getting away with it are good, curious grannies notwithstanding.

Anyway back to the moral issue, well I guess it just shows that we can reason whether something is morally right or not, but the conclusion of that reasoning won't always govern our subsequesnt behaviour.

Zombrex

grasshopa wrote:

I have a bit of a moral puzzle for you:

If you could take 1 cent from every bank account in the world and keep it for yourself, is it wrong to do it? Let's assume that nobody notices, nobody finds out and nobody is affected by this transaction.

Usually when you take something it's at the direct expense of someone else, but when you can make a million without hurting anyone but still stealing it from people, it gets a bit puzzling.

I'm a bit of a utilitarian consequentialist (oh yeah I know a big word! )
as in consequences should be what dictates our actions - and I say as long as everyone doesn't catch on to it, it's not really wrong, even though it sort of feels wrong.

I'm interested in people who think it's wrong but at the same time would do it

As Atheist says, laws (or morality) don't exist in isolation.

If it is ok for you to steal 1 cent why is it then not ok for everyone to steal 1 cent. And if everyone steals 1 cent we have a big problem, and therefore we say it is not ok for anyone to steal 1 cent, because that is the only fair way to stop everyone doing it.

aidan24326

Wicknight wrote:

As Atheist says, laws (or morality) don't exist in isolation.

If it is ok for you to steal 1 cent why is it then not ok for everyone to steal 1 cent. And if everyone steals 1 cent we have a big problem, and therefore we say it is not ok for anyone to steal 1 cent, because that is the only fair way to stop everyone doing it.

you'd still do it though wouldn't you?

Zombrex

aidan24326 wrote:

you'd still do it though wouldn't you?

I might, but I wouldn't complain if I got caught

Nevyn

I would do it but only if I would get away with it and only if I could invest a large ammount of it and fund charities from it.

So you were watching Hackers recently then ?

Zombrex

Thaedydal wrote:

I would do it but only if I would get away with it and only if I could invest a large ammount of it and fund charities from it.

So you were watching Hackers recently then ?

Wasn't it Sneakers (with Robert Redford). It was also done in Office Space. I wonder if it is actually possible....

nobodythere

Ain't seen sneakers Saw hackers about a decade ago.

As I said in my original post, as long as nobody catches on I think it's ok, as in if nobody else follows suit. Let's pretend that nobody ever noticed and it never showed up on any bank statements, you would essentially be profiting at the expense of nobody, which seems to defy the whole balance of the universe or something.

I think that's why the feeling and the logic are dissonant, the feeling of guilt has probably evolved from our ability to survive by working in groups and that if you unjustly take something from this group you are doing it damage. In nature, a puzzle like this one never really arises where you can take an insignificant amount from everyone.

Like talliesin though the guilt would probably have me hand it over to charities.

Karl Hungus

I don't know anyone who has a moral puzzle, or anywhere that sells moral puzzles, so stealing one isn't an issue with me.

Hagar

The Bank woud definitely notice. They would apply the standard transaction charge of 22c to each 1c deposited to your account. This would leave you incurring a net loss of 21c per transaction.

Those Bank lads have it sussed. That's how to steal and no qualms about it afterwards.


/Edited for spelling

subway

meh, if i could do it an get away with it, then, yes, id have my pennies in a big swimming pool.
tbh, i think everyone in ireland has a drawer of pennies or a few down the back of the counch.
if i could have 1 cent from every person on the island thats, what, 40 grand?
nice, its already sitting in your drawer anyway so i dont think you really want it?

secondly, sure if everyone did it we,d be back to square one, wouldnt we?
if we all took a peny from each other at the same time wed all end up with a penny each, no?

finally, we all seen what happened richard pryor once the hackman caught on to these antics.
supes taught him a lesson in the end tho

nobodythere

subway wrote:

secondly, sure if everyone did it we,d be back to square one, wouldnt we?

Good point.



So it's settled.

We're robbing the bank tomorrow.

JC 2K3

If everyone stole pennies and the system was in equilibrium would it be wrong?

Sleepy

kinda been tried before:

http://www.sendmeadollar.com/

Zombrex

JC 2K3 wrote:

If everyone stole pennies and the system was in equilibrium would it be wrong?

A system where everyone "steals" pennies in a fair and organised system isn't really stealling. It's social welfare.

Sam Vimes

Wicknight wrote:

As Atheist says, laws (or morality) don't exist in isolation.

If it is ok for you to steal 1 cent why is it then not ok for everyone to steal 1 cent. And if everyone steals 1 cent we have a big problem, and therefore we say it is not ok for anyone to steal 1 cent, because that is the only fair way to stop everyone doing it.

surely if everyone did it there'd be no problem. i take one cent from every person in the world, so i have 6 billion cent. but then 6 billion others take one cent each from my account. net gain=0

bonkey

Assuming the deception ever gets found out, you'd be stealing all of it off the bank and not one cent off each customer, as the bank would have to bear the cost of bank-fraud.

Indeed, they probably wouldn't even pay it. because they are insured.

Either which way, its only "a cent per person" if its never found out. If it is, then its a multi-million dollar fraud action.

Does the rightness or wrongness of something depend on whether or not you're ever found out?

nobodythere

If rightness and wrongness does not depend on the consequences (for all) then is it not a socially instilled rightness/wrongness and not your own?

If it was assumed that nobody ever found out? Even the bank?

Anyway who's gonna ask for their 1cent back.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hagar wrote:

The Bank woud definitely notice. They would apply the standard transaction charge of 22c to each 1c deposited to your account. This would leave you incurring a net loss of 21c per transaction.

Those Bank lads have it sussed. That's how to steal and no qualms about it afterwards.


/Edited for spelling

Not neccesarily - You don't get a fee when they debit govt levies/overdraft fees etc- assuming you're hacking you could put your 1c through they way these are done.

bonkey

grasshopa wrote:

Anyway who's gonna ask for their 1cent back.

Most people who buy stuff for 99c, 1.99, etc. will expect to get their penny back.

Are you tellnig me that if the bank put an item on your account listing noe cent being taken off you , you'd just let it slide on teh grounds that you didn't mind being robbed as long as it was for so little?

Where do you draw the line, by the way? 2c? 20c? A Euro? How much can I steal from you before you'll complain?

nobodythere

...... Scrooge tbh I'm gonna let 1c slide...

socialism

you are still stealing from a person, where as if you rob a wellsfargo or pinkerton stagecoach its a corporation. i dunno people drop pennies all the time but i would feel guilty not stealing from a person and not a greedy corporation

AngryHippie

grasshopa wrote: »

I have a bit of a moral puzzle for you:

If you could take 1 cent from every bank account in the world and keep it for yourself, is it wrong to do it? Let's assume that nobody notices, nobody finds out and nobody is affected by this transaction.

Is this not common practice by banks themselves??
Only difference is they spend it on junk mail to tell you they just did it and massive corporate salaries so that some fcuk benefits. we all notice, we all know, and we pretend its good practice. Thieving ****ers the whole lot of 'em

socialism

AngryHippie wrote: »

Is this not common practice by banks themselves??
Only difference is they spend it on junk mail to tell you they just did it and massive corporate salaries so that some fcuk benefits. we all notice, we all know, and we pretend its good practice. Thieving ****ers the whole lot of 'em

tax here is 8.5% yet ive never got a half cent back!

casey212

I am not sure if this is indeed a moral puzzle. Looked at from a platonic viewpoint, one would have to firstly debate the existance of the banking system in the first place. Taking this a step further and you would have to consider the motives involved and the persons standing within the community as a whole and indeed the role played by said bank. The provides numerous avenues which could be taken, with the narrow door, ultimately, leading to the road less travelled.

nobodythere

The bank is an illustrative scenario for accountability purposes

casey212

Fair enough. But in my opinion the other party must always be considered when developing such a scheme. I think a Robin Hood approach is quite acceptable, whereas acts of theft and fraud on the poor are totally out of order. Unfortunately the weak are normally the target of such endeavours.

Wacker

grasshopa wrote: »

If rightness and wrongness does not depend on the consequences (for all) then is it not a socially instilled rightness/wrongness and not your own?

If it was assumed that nobody ever found out? Even the bank?

Anyway who's gonna ask for their 1cent back.

When I worked in Bank of Ireland, I received a letter from a Fire Department looking to find out why they were overcharged 2c. It happens!

My dad worked in the investigaions department of a major retail bank, and he had a story for me. If interest payments result in a customer being owed .5c, then the banks round it up in the account holder's favour. Well, one enterprising staff member came up with a way of making the bank round it down, and for the extra fraction of a cent (well, penny as it was then) to be deposited to an account of his.
He got caught. I have no idea what happened next though.

Talk about a victimless crime! People shouldn't be doing it though; as has been said so many times, morality doesn't work in isolation. Sure, if everyone did it then it would all balance out, but not everyone can do it. This would be a classic example of an abuse of power.