Most profitable games and levels to play

luckylucky

My 2 questions here are really geared to mostly pros here or hi stakes players in general, have any of you guys come to a point where you say yeah so I have the bankroll for say for example $10-$20 NL or higher but there is no point in playing it as your expected earnings are actually greater if you play say $3-$6 NL or even $2-$4NL.

Also I think that hi stakes plo i.e. 10-20 is a lot more Ev+ than the nl hold em game, do you agree or disagree?

luckylucky

I'm kind of surprised and disappointed that I have got no reply to this as lately have seen a lot of posts to do with bankroll considerations but the actual profitability of games does not seem to get talked about so much and surely that's a very important consideration.

Do fellow pros out there want to just keep there thoughts on this to themselves.

I haven't played a whole lot of no limit hold'em since packing in my job last August, but I'll share what info I have if it will generate a bit more interest in this post. I have 17421 hands played up until end of November, running at 6.77bb/100, the range of levels I have played range from .5/1 right up to taking shots at 25-50 nl(something which I have put a stop to). I have actually done better at $3-$6, $5-$10 and $10-$20 than I have at $2-$4, but I think this is just due to variance, but now even looking back at my earlier data there does not appear to be any significant difference in my performance between levels $2-4 to $10-$20. Still, I have not got enough data at any one specific level to make any qualifying judgment besides that I seem to be doing alright overall.

Looking back through my own data, I get the impression that if you have the bankroll, and are able to beat the $5-$10 nl, then while you surely can't expect to beat it for the same rate as a $2-$4 game, you would probably still be beating it for enough to make your while to choose to play it instead of $2-$4, beyond $5-$10 is another matter, at least in my own case I think it might be 1 bridge too far for now.

Anyway with that in mind be interesting to hear from some players who have a much bigger set of data and have they settled at one level that they have decided that'll do for them?

Hectorjelly

Thats definitely a consideration. There has been tonnes of posts on 2+2 from people who say that they moved back down from 10 - 20 to 5 10, and 20 40 to 10 20, because allthough they were beating those games, they were beating them for a lot less than they could make at the lower limits. I think for holdem though your winrate is always going to improve until you get to 5-10 assuming you can beat those games. I was recently looking over my stats, my lifetime hourly rate at 12nl is something like 75$ an hour. At 36 which is 3 times the stakes its only $115 or something like that. Thats based on playing an average of 2.5 games at a time. So you can see how that if there was a huge leap in skill levels between the 2 (which there isnt now) it may be more profitable to play 12 then 36.

Hitman Actual

luckylucky wrote:

I'm kind of surprised and disappointed that I have got no reply to this as lately have seen a lot of posts to do with bankroll considerations but the actual profitability of games does not seem to get talked about so much and surely that's a very important consideration.

Do fellow pros out there want to just keep there thoughts on this to themselves.

Nothing useful to add, but I think the lack of replies is because there aren't a lot of posters playing regularly beyond 2-4NL. Off-hand I can only think of five players who play 3-6 and above.

But it's a very interesting question, I think.

luckylucky

Cheers HJ and Lenny for the replies, didn't realise they were so few boardies playing 3-6 and above.
I think HJ makes an interesting point here that though he makes more playing 3-6 than 1-2 it's not so significantly higher that it warrants taking a risk with your bankroll.
I'll be honest, personally while I am aware of what bankroll I should have for a game I have been a bit too inclined to take shots, but when in the cold light of day the EV might actually be less than playing a game that I am adequately bankrolled for it really does not make any sense in that case to take those shots.

FastMachine

On Tribeca there is definately a significant amount of extra value on 3/6 compared to 5/10. There is still more money to be made on 5/10 overall but it's alot closer than 1.66 times as much as 3/6. Then there's the added bonuses of 3/6 and 2/4 - smaller swings, worse opponents, less stress....


I'm playigng 2/4 and 3/6 at the moment, not really playing too much the last while thanks to ****ing World of Warcraft (talk about -ev), and if they up the simultaneous table limits I see myself playing there right through next year. If they don't it's back to 5/10 in the new year <shudder>

opr

FastMachine wrote:

On Tribeca there is definately a significant amount of extra value on 3/6 compared to 5/10. There is still more money to be made on 5/10 overall but it's alot closer than 1.66 times as much as 3/6. Then there's the added bonuses of 3/6 and 2/4 - smaller swings, worse opponents, less stress....


I'm playigng 2/4 and 3/6 at the moment, not really playing too much the last while thanks to ****ing World of Warcraft (talk about -ev), and if they up the simultaneous table limits I see myself playing there right through next year. If they don't it's back to 5/10 in the new year <shudder>

How many tables would you like to be playing at once ?

Mainly playing 1/2 was making in the region of what HJ quoted (3 Tabling) with alot less stress than when i started playing 2/4 and taking shots at 3/6.

Haven't been playing alot lately but i think the whole point for me is that i will never get better if i was to stay at 1/2 and its natural progression to move to higher games.

Not sure who this quote was from "but you only get better and improve by playing better players , a person beating a ball with a racket against a wall at the back of his house could be the best player in the world but how will he ever know that ? "

Opr

valor

This is a very big consideration for my play. I have the bankroll for 510NL at the minute, but I am continuing to play a mixture of 24 and 36 and even 12 when I'm not feeling great [ie hungover!]

I'm trying to balance my goals of moving up through the levels and maintaining a good winrate and it is quite difficult. I could have taken a shot at 24 a long time before I did, and the same can be said of 36 and 510.

The primary method I use for what limit I play is table selection - if there are no good 3-6 games going, I will just play all 2-4. If the 3-6 games are good I will play all them. Given that I play up to 12 tables I very often have a mix of levels

My plan is to mix in 5-10 after Christmas and see how it goes.

luckylucky

valor wrote:

This is a very big consideration for my play. I have the bankroll for 510NL at the minute, but I am continuing to play a mixture of 24 and 36 and even 12 when I'm not feeling great [ie hungover!]

I'm trying to balance my goals of moving up through the levels and maintaining a good winrate and it is quite difficult. I could have taken a shot at 24 a long time before I did, and the same can be said of 36 and 510.

The primary method I use for what limit I play is table selection - if there are no good 3-6 games going, I will just play all 2-4. If the 3-6 games are good I will play all them. Given that I play up to 12 tables I very often have a mix of levels

My plan is to mix in 5-10 after Christmas and see how it goes.

Sounds good to me as do the other replies. Am I reading this right, that you play up to 12 tables at 1 go, if that's the case that's some going, have heard of people doing this but I'm more or less the same as HJ, 3 tables though lately I seem to be able to take it to 4 that bit more readily. Also I'm actually playing mostly Omaha these days and the one thing I feel about that is that the drop in bb/100 between levels is not so great as it is in NL. There is some truly awful players playing the highest stakes in Omaha as compared to NL I think.

valor

yes up to 12 but usually 10

luckylucky

valor wrote:

yes up to 12 but usually 10

Nice one, That's beyond me to be frank. 4 shorthand tables on the go is taxing enough for me. Best of luck with the 5-10 next year.

Goodluck2me

would 6 ten handed games not be about as stressful as 4 six-max?the action comes around a lot quicker in 6 max so you are constantly moving, and making people/player dependant decisions whcih require time. any opinions on this?

Daithio

In response to the omaha question yes I think there is considerably more value at the higher levels in PLO than in NLH. The problem is it's such a swingy game and even if you're a great player it's very likely that the fish will get lucky against you from time to time and you can often have massive losing sessions despite playing perfectly. So I think you need a bigger roll for the respective PLO games. I'm useless at bankroll management though so don't ask me how much. I'm pretty useless at PLO too to tell you the truth but I can still manage to beat 5-10 pretty consistently playing a solid enough game. This is because of a number of absolute fish who play and who will still pay me off every time even though I have barely played a hand in an hour. At the hold em tables at these levels you rarely find players that poor.

luckylucky

goodluck2me wrote:

would 6 ten handed games not be about as stressful as 4 six-max?the action comes around a lot quicker in 6 max so you are constantly moving, and making people/player dependant decisions whcih require time. any opinions on this?

I think they are pretty close, I would actually think 4 6 -max is probably a bit more stressful. Hmm maybe I should be 6-tabling full ring instead. Personally when 4 tabling I take plenty of breaks and will often close down 1 or 2 if I find that I really like 1 particular table and wanted to hone in on that more.

In regards to PLO it is definitely swingier than Hold Em, though on examining my standard deviation in poker tracker my std/100 hands is 49.7 in nl hold em and 64.2 in PLO, granted more of my play in PLO has been full-ring while in Hold'Em it has been more shorthand so would guess the real difference is somewhere around 40%, big but not massive, also my bb/100 in PLO is about 80% higher than in Hold'Em so for me personally it probably makes more sense both from a confidence and a bankroll point of view to be playing PLO, especially as I feel more confident about tackling the higher stakes. If anybody had told me I'd be saying that now in December back last April after my first 2 disastrous months at the game I'd be saying ahem yeah right.

ZZR1100

valor wrote:

yes up to 12 but usually 10

6 max or full ring?.
i presume you play like a rock .
what software are u using to help? PaHud ? autohotkey ? . anything else

ianmc38

I struggle with 4 tables. 3 is manageable.

3 Omaha tables is fairly sick.

One holdem, one Omaha, one O8 and a 2-7 lowball is fun.

luckylucky

ianmc38 wrote:

I struggle with 4 tables. 3 is manageable.

3 Omaha tables is fairly sick.

One holdem, one Omaha, one O8 and a 2-7 lowball is fun.

Lol @ the last 1.

You think 3 omaha tables is sick - I know there is a bit more thinking about what the fook you actually have sometimes but the game is a good bit slower than hold'em though, so I think it's as easy if not easier to multi em than hold'em, I'm regularly spinning 4 of em up these days though I do shut 1 or 2 down after a while sometimes.

valor

ZZR1100 : I play around 19/15 usually [if you know what that means?]. Im pretty tight yeah but not overly so

I play 6 max only

I use bet pot script on one of the sites I use but on the other I play with no additional software. I also obviously use PAHUD

cardshark202

ianmc38 wrote:

I struggle with 4 tables. 3 is manageable.

3 Omaha tables is fairly sick.

One holdem, one Omaha, one O8 and a 2-7 lowball is fun.

Omaha is easy to multitable. I play 6-8 though it is full ring.

luckylucky

valor wrote:

ZZR1100 : I play around 19/15 usually [if you know what that means?]. Im pretty tight yeah but not overly so

I play 6 max only

I use bet pot script on one of the sites I use but on the other I play with no additional software. I also obviously use PAHUD

Presume youn mean vpip/pfr, that pfr sounds like shorthand, though the vpip I would of thought is relatively tight compared to the pfr, don't get me wrong valor whatever works works just an observation.

Also the bet pot script is that one of those autohotkey scripts?

ZZR1100

luckylucky wrote:

.

Also the bet pot script is that one of those autohotkey scripts?

yeah its a autohotkey script.u can also set it to multiply BB etc .use with mouse wheel