Where are the deposits coming from?

elven

Are people really managing to save up €30k by living on cheap noodles, in their parents' houses? Are they being sneaky and getting mortgages arranged before getting a personal loan? Or, are the SSIA's providing them with the cold hard cash...?

My husband comes home with stories of his colleagues lecturing him about how we should find ourselves an €800/mth studio flat in Tallaght, stop going on nights out (not that we do that much anyway mind you), get rid of the car we just bought and save for a couple of years like our lives depended on it until we have enough put by. I can't help but think I'd rather just keep renting, since all that would seem to allow us to afford is to buy the aforementioned studio flat in Tallaght!

I suppose this post is slightly more than just about deposits but in general, are the only options to keep on renting in a half decent area, or move to somewhere that means a 2 hour commute to and from work? I hear so many horror stories but I'd like to know what real people are actually doing, real people in the same situation as us. At 27, with no kids, do I really need to be panicking about getting on this frickin ladder? I think I value my current quality of life more than the prospect of owning somewhere so we can knock down a wall if we want to... should I have a different attitude?

godtabh

I put a little aside each month when I start working just as genearl saving. Then I start looking for a place and I started saving €1600 a month.

I'll now have a depost of approx €37500 for a deposit. I live at home so I do have it handy in that way but I still had to save a lot.

Calina

Currently, at the age of 30+ I live in a houseshare. I wouldn't have expected to be still here past the age of 30.

What annoys me about people with "well meaning advice" such as "you have to get on the ladder" is that it is none of their bloody business how you decide to do things.

For the past few years, people who bought houses have been feeling rich because they thought their houses equated to wealth. That's not really true unless you cash it in - and I don't mean by equity release because equity release is just another name for more debt.

My view is that you have to make a call on balancing quality of life versus feeling wealthy. No one I know who put feeling wealthy above quality of life is particularly happy because they are jaded all the time, they don't have time to do stuff. Me, I'd prefer to live on my own (which will see my rent go up next year) but given a choice between 1000E near work/rent and 1000E on a house 90 minutes from work, I will choose rental every time. What's the point in owning your own four walls if you never see them?

Someone tried to tell me where to buy without considering that my financial position would be very different to hers, and without considering that my life wants are different to hers. I don't believe in buying a one bed apartment "just to have somewhere" if it doesn't suit my lifestyle. Most one bed apartments (all?) in this country barely suit the lifestyle of a student whose possessions fit into a single rucksack so someone like me with a life and a bundle of hobbies involving equipment to be stored is on a loser immediately.

Effectively it boils down to this: should you have a different attitude? No. The only person qualified to make a decision on your behalf is you. Not the mass media or the general public.

Sponge Bob

elven wrote:

At 27, with no kids, do I really need to be panicking about getting on this frickin ladder? I think I value my current quality of life more than the prospect of owning somewhere so we can knock down a wall if we want to... should I have a different attitude?

Nope, you are dead right, I would not even think of it till I was past 30 in your case and as for kids :eek:

1. Its costs more to run a single kid in Dublin than to buy and run a BMW €12k-€15k a year (after tax) .
2. You do not need extra space until they are about 2 .
3. You can wait till you are 35 to start thinking of kids anyway.

This "ladder" crap BS is recent, late 1990s stuff. There was no ladder before then only a semi to live in. The "ladder" was invented by estate agents when the first property was no longer a semi but an apartment. This was in order to make the shoebox in tallaght sound like a means to an end and not sound like a shoebox which is what it is.

I houseshared beyond 30 and most of my mates did ...unless they had kids

Calina

Calina wrote:

Currently, at the age of 30+ I live in a houseshare. I wouldn't have expected to be still here past the age of 30.

What annoys me about people with "well meaning advice" such as "you have to get on the ladder" is that it is none of their bloody business how you decide to do things.

For the past few years, people who bought houses have been feeling rich because they thought their houses equated to wealth. That's not really true unless you cash it in - and I don't mean by equity release because equity release is just another name for more debt.

My view is that you have to make a call on balancing quality of life versus feeling wealthy. No one I know who put feeling wealthy above quality of life is particularly happy because they are jaded all the time, they don't have time to do stuff. Me, I'd prefer to live on my own (which will see my rent go up next year) but given a choice between 1000E near work/rent and 1000E on a house 90 minutes from work, I will choose rental every time. What's the point in owning your own four walls if you never see them?

Someone tried to tell me where to buy without considering that my financial position would be very different to hers, and without considering that my life wants are different to hers. I don't believe in buying a one bed apartment "just to have somewhere" if it doesn't suit my lifestyle. Most one bed apartments (all?) in this country barely suit the lifestyle of a student whose possessions fit into a single rucksack so someone like me with a life and a bundle of hobbies involving equipment to be stored is on a loser immediately.

Effectively it boils down to this: should you have a different attitude? No. The only person qualified to make a decision on your behalf is you. Not the mass media or the general public.

Different strokes for different folks really.
I saved hard, cut back on unneccessary spending etc and got 30,000 together to cover a deposit and fees etc on my house. It's a three-bed semi in Dublin.
There is a huge misconception out there that all first-time buyers in their 20s can afford are one-bed dog boxes in the middle of nowhere. Or that we're all living on the breadline. I've had three holidays this year!

It's each to their own. I have friends who are long-term renters in fab city apartments, love their cocktail evenings and designer bags too much to save a deposit. And there's nothing wrong with that.

However I have other friends who found thinking long-term suited them better. They wanted to start paying off a mortgage sooner rather than later (my sister is 39 and her mortgage is almost paid off now).
They may not be living ten minutes from work but also know they won't always be working in that office, in that location.
Jobs change, lifestyles change, priorities change.
If it suits you to rent and you like it, why get so hot and bothered about what other people think?

hmmm

I love renting, I've never understood the "stigma" attached in Ireland - renting is the norm in many European countries. You can choose where you want to live, you want to leave you just have to give a couple of months , if anything goes wrong you ring the landlord, no worries about doing the place up, paying insurance or management fees, worrying about paying interest rates.

My friends with mortgages are spending 3/4 hours a day in their cars and have a zero quality of life. They don't save a thing, and have no pension. They have no social life. They can't afford to have kids. All for what?

Once house prices start falling I think the penny will drop for many - their lack of social life and 3 hour commutes will last for the lifetime of their mortgage. You've just sacrificed your life for a pile of bricks.

That's no way to live, I really feel sorry for anyone in a position like that. Then again, if it's that bad all your friends have to do is sell up and rent?

As for the Irish 'obsession' with owning property, I think it comes down to security. For me anyway, I kinda like the idea of kicking back in my forties having paid off the mortgage and owing nothing to nobody!

I suppose I look at my parents now in their sixties - back in their day things were actually harder for young homebuyers than they are now.
They managed through the black Seventies and Eighties, the crazy interest rates, the unemployment, rock bottom house prices etc.

godtabh

hmmm wrote:

My friends with mortgages are spending 3/4 hours a day in their cars and have a zero quality of life. They don't save a thing, and have no pension. They have no social life. They can't afford to have kids. All for what?

Once house prices start falling I think the penny will drop for many - their lack of social life and 3 hour commutes will last for the lifetime of their mortgage. You've just sacrificed your life for a pile of bricks.

That’s just a big generalisation. You cant apply that to every one.

As has been said people chose to do different things so each to their own

CiaranC

For me, there was a choice. I decided Id prefer to own my own place. So it wasnt between renting and owning, it was between buying a smaller property near where work, friends and family is or buying a larger one further away.

All these people deriding living in places like Tallaght piss me off. Tallaght is a massive centre of population, industry and employment. I was born, raised and educated here, my family and friends are here. I work here. I socialise here. I like it. Yeah, it has some social problems, but where doesnt?

But apparently Im supposed to aspire to living in Foxrock, so I can fight my way through the traffic back to Tallaght to get to work and see my family. **** off.

People (Im looking at you SpongeBob) seem to be under the impression that people only live in places like Tallaght, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown because they absolutely have to, and not because these places have a massive young population who want somewhere to live near work, family and friends.

Those of us in those three areas alone make up a huge part of the population of Dublin, and those of us who are buying property have degrees, community ties and well paid jobs like everyone else. We are young, we work hard, we earn good money and we staff the ranks of companies all over West Dublin which bring prestige and kudos to our economy (which our 'superiors' are all to happy to claim credit for).

So what if we have to live in 800 sq ft dwellings instead of 1200 sq ft ones in order to comfortably afford a mortgage? We're ten minutes from work, the local, the mammy and the GAA club and our quality of life is just grand.

/end rant

Sponge Bob

CiaranC wrote:

People (Im looking at you SpongeBob)

:eek: yikes :eek:

CiaranC wrote:

seem to be under the impression that people only live in places like Tallaght, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown because they absolutely have to, and not because these places have a massive young population who want somewhere to live near work, family and friends.

Fair enuff. Tallaght is hardly Kilbeggan or Killeshandra .

CiaranC wrote:

So what if we have to live in 800 sq ft dwellings instead of 1200 sq ft ones in order to comfortably afford a mortgage? We're ten minutes from work, the local, the mammy and the GAA club and our quality of life is just grand.

800sq ft is quite generous for a single person or couple by modern standards .

I was responding to the OP who specifically mentioned a "Studio Flat" which would be more like 300-400 sq ft Ciaran , I'm sure you will agree, and I am sure that Tallaght in the OPs post was a synonym for 'outer suburb' or edge city or commuterville not like as in specific to your Tallaght where you belong and had a life all along before you bought .

Can you stop looking at me now that I cleared that up.

You're right on the button there CiaranC.

It's funny how I don't know ONE homeowner who regrets their decision to buy despite the near-hysterical shoutings of doom from others.

A fall in property prices doesn't come close to the 'worst possible scenario' in my life.

Perspective, people.

CiaranC

Spongebob wrote:

I was responding to the OP who specifically mentioned a "Studio Flat" which would be more like 300-400 sq ft Ciaran

300-400 sq foot, good christ. Are they really that small?

I'm sure you will agree, and I am sure that Tallaght in the OPs post was a synonym for 'outer suburb' or edge city or commuterville not like as in specific to your Tallaght where you belong and had a life all along before you bought.

My point is that a huge amount of people buying in these areas are like me - people who grew up near enough and have ties there. Theres just a lot of us.

Can you stop looking at me now that I cleared that up.

Im watching you boyo. Maybe you should post that graph of empty properties again and put the fear of god back into me.

Deleted User wrote:

A fall in property prices doesn't come close to the 'worst possible scenario' in my life.

Sure its only money Easy come, easy go.

Sponge Bob

A 350 sq ft in Tallaght just for you my son but its only €200k and comes with a parking space , or at least they seem to imply there is parking.

http://www3.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=280274&np=&rt=search&searchlist=

Hall: 11’6” x 3’6” access to attic

Lounge / Kitchen 14’1” x 12’1”. Kitchen area fitted with full range of units, plumbed for washing machine

Bedroom 1 11’8” x 9’7” with built in wardrobe

Bathroom 6’3” X 5’8”, white suite of bath with shower over, whb, wc , partially tiled walls.

Total area: Circa 350 sq ft

CiaranC

And you're saying people live in there? I had no idea. I thought people meant 700-800 sq ft apts when they said 'shoebox'...

The_Conductor

Sponge Bob wrote:

A 350 sq ft in Tallaght just for you my son but its only €200k and comes with a parking space , or at least they seem to imply there is parking.

Total area: Circa 350 sq ft

Eeekkk!

Sponge Bob

I read _somewhere_ that something like 20% of all homes built in Dublin since the year 2000 are 500 square feet or less , thats a lot of shoeboxes .

700-800 is OK for a single person or a couple with no kids or a baby and is most certainly not a shoebox . Once kids need space after the age of 1 you sorta need 1000 square feet .

I reckon 2 adults and 2 kids need about 1200 sq feet or so .

prox

350 square feet? Sure that's a mansion.

How about 258ft2, yours for the bargain price of 210,000:

http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=283051&np=&rt=search&searchlist=

You'd be mad NOT to buy it. Sure it'll be worth twice that in two years, as property prices in Ireland have only gone up since the 70s and the demographics are only massive and sure God isn't making any more of it hah jaysus.

Sponge Bob

prox wrote:

How about 258ft2, yours for the bargain price of 210,000:

I have heard of going Japanese but 258 Sq Ft is tiny and its not in Tallaght I would further add but elsewhere in Dublin. My hall is more than 258 sq ft ffs . That thing is worth no more than €50k or €60k.

But some eejit will surely show up some day a singing and a humming SBs fave song of the decade .

The Chant of The Tiger Cub .

Renting is dead money
I must get on The Ladder
Renting is dead money
I must get on The Ladder
Renting is dead money
I must get on The Ladder
Renting is dead money
I must get on The Ladder
Renting is dead money
I must get on The Ladder
Renting is dead money
I must get on The Ladder
Renting is dead money
I must get on The Ladder
Renting is dead money
I must get on The Ladder

markpb

hmmm wrote:

My friends with mortgages are spending 3/4 hours a day in their cars and have a zero quality of life. They don't save a thing, and have no pension. They have no social life. They can't afford to have kids. All for what?

You do know its possible to buy a house and not commit yourself to a 3 hour commute? ;o) Tone down the hysteria just a little.

I bought an apartment just over a year ago and it takes me just 15 minutes to cycle to work (Santry -> Clontarf). The bus takes 45 minutes. I've no idea how long it would be to drive. So you can scratch the 3/4 hour commute right there. People choose commutes, it's rarely forced on them.

With someone renting the second room, my mortgage is just 30% of my wages. I don't save a huge amount but I'll have been on two holidays by the end of the year, I eat out with my gf at least once a week and yes, I do have a pension.

As for the OP, my parents helped me with the deposit (I'm 24) but with my savings and my SSIA, I'll be helping my brother buy his place if/when he wants one.

Once house prices start falling I think the penny will drop for many - their lack of social life and 3 hour commutes will last for the lifetime of their mortgage. You've just sacrificed your life for a pile of bricks.

I happen to like where I like. I love the apartment, I love the area and it's very handy for work now and for the city centre if I work elsewhere. If/when house prices fall, it won't bother me all at because it's my home. Crazy idea

elven

Indeed, I only mentioned Tallaght as an example of somewhere we might be inclined to buy a place and travel to work in the city from. I don't doubt there are plenty people who grew up there, have family there, and work there and so want to live there for the sake of convenience to them (you) and far play to them. All I'm saying is, when working in the city centre (rathmines currently) and it takes me 40 minutes to get here from Kimmage driving and my husband an hour to get to the city centre on the bus, I can't bear to imagine how long it'd take from anywhere further out. Maybe I have a different idea about these things coming from Glasgow where I actually worked in Paisley (9 miles away, 14km) and got there in 20 minutes, 15 on a good day...

Anyway I don't mean to sound snooty with that it's just quite an eye opener and I'm amazed at the difference in expectations. It's a big factor in not wanting to push to be buying a place.

As for the deposits, well, the people who have replied seem to have saved by living with parents or being helped out... I'm sure without €1100 rent a month to pay we'd be much further on our way to saving that up, but I just don't see it happening in our current situation. I'm not sure what our other options are, or how long it would take us to actually save that much - and by that time you have to pay €500k for a shoebox!

It seems very much that the people who have bought think it's the best thing they've done, and the people who haven't think it's not worth it. I suppose it's just a personal choice. I do worry about being 70 and still having to work to pay a mortgage. Mind you if we ever managed to buy here and make money on it, I'd be using the profit to buy a place in scotland outright for reasonable money, and have no mortgage to pay at all!

P.S. Hey Calina You're right about the hobbies, I need a spare room for my macro studio...

godtabh

elven wrote:

It seems very much that the people who have bought think it's the best thing they've done, and the people who haven't think it's not worth it. I suppose it's just a personal choice. I do worry about being 70 and still having to work to pay a mortgage. Mind you if we ever managed to buy here and make money on it, I'd be using the profit to buy a place in scotland outright for reasonable money, and have no mortgage to pay at all!

You'll still have to pay rent at 70 if you didnt buy a place.

Worst case for me I'll be paying mine off till i'm 60. Hopefully I'll be able to cut that down a bit by increase payments as I progress in work

Kinetic^

As has been said........life is full of choices.

CiaranC hit the nail on the head about Tallaght, everywhere you go has problems so let's not single out places. There are places I would and wouldn't live up there, in fact it'll probably be where I move next.

Kearnsr beat to me to it with Elven's comment............you're going to be renting somewhere when you're 70...........but like I just said it's your choice..............a stupid choice imo, but yours!!!!

Paraic

100% mortgages are available, so effectively no deposit is necessary.
The Lenders still like to some sort of monthly savings just to show you can afford the mortgage if there any interest rate increases.
Steady permanent employment is also required.

Paraic@obrienfinlay.ie

godtabh

Kenny 5 wrote:

As has been said........life is full of choices.

CiaranC hit the nail on the head about Tallaght, everywhere you go has problems so let's not single out places. There are places I would and wouldn't live up there, in fact it'll probably be where I move next.

Kearnsr beat to me to it with Elven's comment............you're going to be renting somewhere when you're 70...........but like I just said it's your choice..............a stupid choice imo, but yours!!!!

I totally agree with both points.

I live in Lucan now. Its go some nice places and some not so nice places. I'd would have loved to have bought there but got a grand place 3 miles down the road and that will do me fine.

Your second point I couldnt agree more with but not every one is in the sistuation I was in regarding be able to live at home and save. People move for work and hence its not possible for them to stay at home

Sponge Bob

Paraic wrote:

100% mortgages are available, so effectively no deposit is necessary.

WERE available, did you not read the Indo yesterday at all ?????

Only civil servants and doctors need apply for a 100% mortgage, the rest of us can feck off.

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote:

WERE available, did you not read the Indo yesterday at all ?????

Only civil servants and doctors need apply for a 100% mortgage, the rest of us can feck off.

Its one building society and it also mentions professional people (the article I read yesterday not your link)

Sponge Bob

IIB homeloans will not apparently entertain 100% loans either while PTSB are apparently demanding very onerous documentation when the paper trail starts after approval .

CiaranC

All I'm saying is, when working in the city centre (rathmines currently) and it takes me 40 minutes to get here from Kimmage driving and my husband an hour to get to the city centre on the bus, I can't bear to imagine how long it'd take from anywhere further out.

I see your point, but what I was saying is that not everyone on (what used to be) the outskirts of Dublin works in the City Centre. Why would anyone choose to do so when theres the likes of Blanchardstown, Ballycoolin, City West, Park West Industrial Parks, the retail centres, etc. etc. etc.

The areas 'further out' are growing around these economic & employment centres, not because people cant afford to buy in the city centre. It would make no sense for people to buy there, so they dont.

Paraic

Yes I saw the article as I'm a mortgage broker.
The current options for 100% mortgages!
You will also need permanent employment and some form of savings.

AIB-Yes
BOI-Yes
BOS-Yes
First Active-Yes
ICS-Yes
UB-Yes

EBS-No
ACC-No
IIB-No
IN- No

Paraic

PTSB
100% is only available to very high incomes
Salary €80,000+

godtabh

Paraic wrote:

PTSB
100% is only available to very high incomes
Salary €80,000+

What civil servant makes that much?

The_Conductor

kearnsr wrote:

What civil servant makes that much?

That would be Principle Officers and higher. Not that many of them around.....

godtabh

smccarrick wrote:

That would be Principle Officers and higher. Not that many of them around.....

A PO would be fairly high up the ladder would they? They arent going to be in their 20's or 30's are they? Surely this is what the 100% home loan is geared towards

Sponge Bob

why do you need savings ????? I thought that was the whole idea of a 100% mortgage , you did not need savings for it .

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote:

why do you need savings ????? I thought that was the whole idea of a 100% mortgage , you did not need savings for it .

To kit it out and what not

iguana

elven wrote:

At 27, with no kids, do I really need to be panicking about getting on this frickin ladder?

Umm, but it would be easier to buy a house now, before you have the expense of children, than it will be after you have them. I've bought my house now at 27 (though actually I turned 28 today), so that I can pay off as much as possible before I have kids. That way in a few years when I do have children I won't owe as much. I would hate to start looking or trying to move up when I have kids to consider.

And if you continue renting you will find it harder to do so with a child. I have known people who had to move for supposed reasons given by their landlord after having children and their search options became very limited. I assume it's illegal, but it still happens.:(

Sponge Bob

but dude, surely the person who helps you to have kids, aka the other half, will also contribute to the mortgage going forward.

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote:

but dude, surely the person who helps you to have kids, aka the other half, will also contribute to the mortgage going forward.

Not if they decide to stay at home with the kids.

Mind y ou thats probably not done as much as it used to be

iguana

Sponge Bob wrote:

but dude, surely the person who helps you to have kids, aka the other half, will also contribute to the mortgage going forward.

Perhaps I should have been more clear, I'm married and the house and mortgage payments are shared between us both.

kearnsr wrote:

Not if they decide to stay at home with the kids.

Mind y ou thats probably not done as much as it used to be

I probably won't have kids if I can't stay at home with them. So the mortgage would largely by on my husband's shoulders, though if we need it I will be an a childminder to other peoples kids to supplement our income.

(Not for everyone but I appreciated having my mum there for me when I grew up, and she was a childminder through my teens and I certainly preffered having both my mum and part-time "brothers and sisters" around than to have her working somewhere else.) Paying off a chunk of the mortgage before we have kids is the only way to insure that I have that option.

Sponge Bob

iguana wrote:

I probably won't have kids if I can't stay at home with them. So the mortgage would largely by on my husband's shoulders, though if we need it I will be an a childminder to other peoples kids to supplement our income.

At least you are giving yourself the choice of doing this by reducing the mortgage overhead so that its payable on one salary. The back of my envelope always tells me that its cheaper to run a beemer than a kid once creches are factored in at between €700 and €1200 a month per kid , depending on where you live (and after tax of course) .

You could also be 5-7 years away form having kids which will give you a good run at the mortgage , not in the least unusual to start well into the 30s these days , nor should it be. Were you a recent FTB and already aged 35 I would be more sceptical of course.

iguana

Sponge Bob wrote:

At least you are giving yourself the choice of doing this by reducing the mortgage overhead so that its payable on one salary. The back of my envelope always tells me that its cheaper to run a beemer than a kid once creches are factored in at between €700 and €1200 a month per kid , depending on where you live (and after tax of course) .

You could also be 5-7 years away form having kids which will give you a good run at the mortgage , not in the least unusual to start well into the 30s these days , nor should it be. Were you a recent FTB and already aged 35 I would be more sceptical of course.

That's the plan, it's like this in life. You are either going to have a future or you are going to die, 1 or the other. So you have to plan for your future and house prices being what they are if you want to both own a house and have children then you should try to do the house thing and lower your mortgage before having kids. Very little in life comes without sacrificing something else. And I for one would rather sacrifice a little now, so I don't have to sacrifice a whole lot in the future.

Sponge Bob

then again many 27 y o peeps have not met theirs other halves yet and cannot plan what you described and nor do i think they should at that age, 35 is soon enough IMO

CiaranC

35? You'd wanna get some splooge on ice in case you are impotent by then!

iguana

Sponge Bob wrote:

then again many 27 y o peeps have not met theirs other halves yet and cannot plan what you described and nor do i think they should at that age.

There are ways of planning for the future when you are still single. You can have a decent savings account, some investments, you could buy a home with a friend, buy a house and rent the other rooms. It's not as easy but it isn't impossible.

Sponge Bob wrote:

35 is soon enough IMO

Studies in the US show that approximately 10% of women between ages 20 and 29 report difficulty in conceiving, that figure rises to around 25% for women in their thirties and geometrically increases to more than 50% for women over 40.

35 could be too late for many women to be able to concieve. At least without painful, invasive and expensive treatments and they are no guarauntee.

chump

iguana wrote:

There are ways of planning for the future when you are still single. You can have a decent savings account, some investments, you could buy a home with a friend, buy a house and rent the other rooms. It's not as easy but it isn't impossible.



Studies in the US show that approximately 10% of women between ages 20 and 29 report difficulty in conceiving, that figure rises to around 25% for women in their thirties and geometrically increases to more than 50% for women over 40.

35 could be too late for many women to be able to concieve. At least without painful, invasive and expensive treatments and they are no guarauntee.

Serious question, what does "geometrically increases to more than 50% for women over 40." mean?

Sponge Bob

A woman in her late 20s can get pregnant sort of when she wants. A woman in her late 30s can have more difficulty getting pregnant and for a woman in her 40s starting off there is a VERY low probability that she will be able to conceive.

Putting off starting a family until 35 is not daft in my experience but putting off starting a family until 42 is daft , Iguana is right .

As for a man Ciaran the laddies work pretty well until 50 with no serious drop in quality and quantity unless there is a hidden type 2 diabetes or something congenitally wrong.

In real life I never discuss having kids with childless couples aged between 35 and 45 , I never go there because I am not sure whether there may be fertility issues or not. After 45 they usually accept that there wil be no kids but not invariably.

Iguana has given herself the OPTION of doing what she wants WHEN she wants, others do not think as clearly as her.