Mis-diagnosis by Renault garage

denachoman

I've had a bad couple of weeks car wise. I failed the NCT on 14th Nov with my 2002 Renault Laguna for the following reeson:

Visual Defect: Steering Linkage
Description: Track Rod Ends
Reason: Worn
Location: Nearside Front (Left)
FAIL/REFUSAL
REtest required: Repeat Side Slip Test

Fair enough, bit peeved on not passing the NCT so off I go to Renault garage near where I work armed with my NCT report. They have a look at the car, tell me they'll order the part and book me in for a few days later (21st Nov) to fit the part. Again, fair enough to a point, part is fitted on time. Minor issue where they tried to charge me for 2 track rod ends when they only fitted one - not sure if this was a genuine mistake or deliberate. Total bill - €236.03 incl VAT.

So I'm all set for my retest when i have the misfortunate to break down on the M50. Linkage arm of the gearbox broke/damaged so I couldn't get 1st, 2nd or reverse. Get it towed to my regular garage in Blanchardstown, get a replacement car and get to work 4 hours later than planned. Next day, garage rings to say gearbox needs to be rebuilt, toal cost roughly €800 plus VAT. What can I do? work needs to be done so I give the go ahead.

Yesterday, another call from garage. Gearbox fine but the mechanic noticed a problem with the track rod end on the front passenger side. I say hang on, that's what I failed my NCT on and I got the problem sorted in a Renault garage a week ago. They go back to check and confirm that a new track rod end has been fitted but the problem hasn't been fixed. There is still "play" on the steering rack at the front left side causing a pull on the steering and it is unsafe. They ring Blanchardstown Renault and order a new part to fix the problem.

So my question is........I got charged €236.03 by the orginal Renault garage to fix a problem that showed up on my NCT report in order to pass the retest. What comeback do I have? Because the car has been in the garage I have had to postpone the retest. There is nothing to stop the original Renault garage from saying that they fixed the problem as stated on the NCT report and the "play" in the steering rack happened subsequently when it is as clear as day they mis-diagnosed the reason for the car failing the NCT and replaced the wrong part. Now I'm having to pay another garage to fix the real problem.

Shoul I fire Renault off a threatening letter or call in in person and hope to get a refund?

galwaytt

The problem as I see it is that Renault fixed what the NCT guy said was wrong with it.........if I understand correctly, Renault themselves didn't diagnose the original fault. In which case, it's the NCT guys you need to beat up on........

As for the gearbox thing........if I have this right, they said gearbox FUBAR and you said OK, fix. Then, the following day that's sorted, and then the steering is AWOL again......? So, they rebuilt a gearbox overnight? Are you sure it's not Williams Renault you're dealing with?:rolleyes: I'd almost never rebuild a gearbox, it's cheaper to buy a s/hand one. I daresay you'd get a s/hand one for your car for about Eur350.

So there you are, all gearboxed up, and still wobbly steering - I think the problem is a mis-diagnosis by NCT man, and the rest just followed from that.

denachoman

I agree the NCT reprt was probably misleading but surely any decent mechanic would have noticed the real problem when they were replacing the track rod end?

And the car was in for 3 or 4 days betting the gearbox repaired, not overnight so safe to assume it wasn't an F1 mechanic!

BrianD3

The problem is that play in the steering is not really something that can be measured, it is up to the NCT tester to decide whether there is too much play or not. Different testers may have slightly different ideas as to what is acceptable. Individual mechanics working in garages will also have different ideas as to what is and isn't acceptable. And remember that the NCT is only about the condition of the car at the time of the test. If you have a worn track rod that is just barely acceptable at the time of the test but would be unacceptable after another month's driving then the NCT should pass the car. OTOH if your car is in for a service and the garage mechanic notices track rods that would be worn out within a month and didn't mention it to you that would be bad practise.

If the tester says that the track rod end ends need replacing then it would be silly of a garage to say he was wrong, replace a different part and leave the custoimer to argue it out with the tester.

Has the 2nd garage told you that is it the steering control arm (track rod) that needs replacing. AFAIK these tend to wear out a lot quicker than the track rod ends on the Laguna.

OldmanMondeo

I would take it up with the garage that replaced the Track rod end. They shold have checked that the new rod was fitted securley and safely. How come another dealer, who was not working near the replaced trace rod, could notice that there was a problem?

The NCT will only tell you there is a problem and where about it is. The Mechanic you ask to fix the car, should ensure that the job is done so the car is roadworthy.

MercMad

The NCT tester is not required to tell you what part is required, unless he can see visual damage. The test will tell you there is an unnacceptable level of play in the steering !

You obviously brought the car to the dealer who took your word/NCT guys word that a certain part was required, they ordered that and fitted it !

They should NOT have given the car back to you without ensuring the problem was rectified and the steering was now free of excess play !

Charging you €236 is a discrace. A track rod end is about €15 with a complete rod not much more. Sounds like they got stuck into you. I would go back and complain !

Why did you bring it elsewhere the second time anyway?

You say the linkage was broken/damaged..........did the first garage damage it. It seems to be in the same vicinity as the steering linkages ! Also if its just linkages then why did the 'box need rebuilding, or was it where the linkages go inside the box that was the problem ?

At least the second garage informed you the steering was not right, I would be more inclined to stick with these guys !

Sorry for your trouble !

galwaytt

denachoman wrote:

I agree the NCT reprt was probably misleading but surely any decent mechanic would have noticed the real problem when they were replacing the track rod end?

...not necessarily; if the play detected by the NCT tester and his machine indicates (to him and then to you, verbally) that it's the track rod ends - then why would anyone question that? I'm not aware that any garage has the same test equip as the NCT, so they wouldn'tbe able to measure side-slip, which is, after all, measured in m per km travelled..........

I doubt you'll get a Laguna t/r end for Eur15,but either way, I agree Eur236 is a lot of money for that - they only have to remove a wheel, after all. Or did they re-do the tracking/4-wheel alignment afterwards, and did they give you a copy? Mind you, that'd only be Eur40. How much an hour do they charge, and how long did they take to do it - look at the paperwork.

BrianD3

MercMad wrote:

The NCT tester is not required to tell you what part is required, unless he can see visual damage. The test will tell you there is an unnacceptable level of play in the steering !

It gives more detail than that though! The track rod end is quite a specific part and mentioned in the NCT manual. NCT fail reports refer to sections in the NCT manual eg if you failed on a track rod end on the nearside you'll get something like
Steering Linkage - Drag Rod and Track rods ends - nearside - (11) obviously worn or insecure

If you had a worn bushing that was causing play you'd get something like
Steering Linkage - Rack and Pinion type steering - nearside (3) bushes/ bearings excessively worn

BrianD3

Forgot to mention - 236 euros sounds like about the right price to replace 1 steering control arm (track rod) These are about 100 quid each and Blanch Renault probably have a labour rate of around 70+ euros per hour.

As the others have said 236 euros sound ridiculous for replacing a track rod END

greglo23

the steering rack is made up of the rack, 2 track rods and 2 track rod ends which in the laguna are of very poor quality. both the ends and rods wear so the first renault dealer should have checked that all the play was gone when they fitted the end. an NCT tester can only see a certain amount of detail during a test whereas the mechanic will have the car stripped and so should be able to see and diagnose the problem correctly and do the job properly.
the NCT report is a guideline to the problems which need to be fixed but just because it says the track rod end is worn does not mean that there is'nt wear in another part as well. the wear in one part can be so bad it masks the wear in the other parts and only when replaced does the secondary problem show up.
once you have it repaired i'd get rid of it. worst car on the road at the moment followed closely by the 3 cyl opel corsa :rolleyes:

denachoman

BrianD3 wrote:

Forgot to mention - 236 euros sounds like about the right price to replace 1 steering control arm (track rod) These are about 100 quid each and Blanch Renault probably have a labour rate of around 70+ euros per hour.

As the others have said 236 euros sound ridiculous for replacing a track rod END

Sorry if I have mislead by referrring to track rod ends when I should have said something else (it's Double Dutch to me I'm afriad). I have the invoice from the Renualt garage in front of me....

Labour €118.75
Tie Rod End €89.21
VAT €28.07

To answer other queries - the 2nd garage is one that I have used over the years and they have always looked after me. The reason I went to the Renault garage is that I commute over an hour to work and it was convenient to where I work rather than having to bring it to my usual garage which is near where I live. I wrongly assumed that fixing something that shows up in an NCT failure report was as simple as.

Thanks for the replies.

BrianD3

greglo23 wrote:

the steering rack is made up of the rack, 2 track rods and 2 track rod ends which in the laguna are of very poor quality. both the ends and rods wear so the first renault dealer should have checked that all the play was gone when they fitted the end.

Well when someone brings their car into a garage to get work done for an NCT retest they don't want to be told that there is additional work needed that wasn't picked up by the NCT. If you fail the NCT specifically on track rod ends (as in this case) then only the track rod ends are examined in the retest. If the garage starts replacing additional parts as well the custiomer could well think that the garage is trying to rip them off by doing unnecessary work not needed to pass the NCT.

Also as I said earlier one person's idea of excessive wear is not the same as anothers and the NCTS and garages will look at things differently. And how does the OP know that it's the Renault garage that's in the wrong here? The 2nd garage that he brought the car to for the gearbox work could be in the wrong. The work that the Renault garage did could be fine. Maybe the mechanic in that independent garage is inexperienced when it comes to Renaults. Who knows.

The Laguna is far from being the worst car on the road. There is a lot of BS talked about Renaults in this forum.

To the OP - the tie rod end is the same as the track rod end. 89 quid for an end is expensive but then again it is quite a substantial part. Have you brought the car for its retest yet.

MercMad

If you check with the likes of GSF Car parts the Track Rod is stg£21.50 and the Track Rod End is stg£18.50. This makes the breakdown of the main dealer bill pretty reasonable actually !

Renault parts are expensive compared the Benz parts !

I still feel the first garage should have advise of the remaining play !

BTW I have a 3cyl. Corsa and I love it, it does lots of mileage and it well maintained and i have never had a problem, just oil changed twice a year blah blah !

Renaults on the other hand IMO are completely worn out pieces of junk after 60,000 miles !

Then again I did love my Clio 16Valve !!

OldmanMondeo

BrianD3 wrote:

Well when someone brings their car into a garage to get work done for an NCT retest they don't want to be told that there is additional work needed that wasn't picked up by the NCT. If you fail the NCT specifically on track rod ends (as in this case) then only the track rod ends are examined in the retest. If the garage starts replacing additional parts as well the custiomer could well think that the garage is trying to rip them off by doing unnecessary work not needed to pass the NCT.

Ok, say you fail the nct on worn brake pads, you go to your garage and you toldthat the disc are scored and will need replacing, or you fail on a torn CV boot, the garage tells you that the CV joint needs to be changed also, This is normal. I would say that the first Garage failed in the customer care as the mechanic should have checked all part attached to the tie rod to ensure that the car was safe.

As for the BS about Renaults, it's not BS, I used to own a Megane and I was in charge of a fleet that contained mainly Renaults when I started in that job. Greatest piece of crap in my opionin are Renaults. Would advise anyone from buying one, actually that goes for most French cars.

Gary ITR

OldmanMondeo wrote:

As for the BS about Renaults, it's not BS, I used to own a Megane and I was in charge of a fleet that contained mainly Renaults when I started in that job. Greatest piece of crap in my opionin are Renaults. Would advise anyone from buying one, actually that goes for most French cars.

Agreed.. And I'm driving a 05 Laguna 1.9dci. I hate it

denachoman

BrianD3 wrote:

And how does the OP know that it's the Renault garage that's in the wrong here? The 2nd garage that he brought the car to for the gearbox work could be in the wrong. The work that the Renault garage did could be fine. Maybe the mechanic in that independent garage is inexperienced when it comes to Renaults. Who knows.
To the OP - the tie rod end is the same as the track rod end. 89 quid for an end is expensive but then again it is quite a substantial part. Have you brought the car for its retest yet.

The retest was due last week but I couldn't go as my car was in the garage! I have it on 14th Dec now.
As i said the only reason I went to the Renault garage for convenience and because I thought they would have more experience of fixing a Laguna to pass an NCT than my regular garage which is the 2nd garage I went to.
The owner of the regular garage is a good friend of mine and there is no way they would suggest carrying out unnecessary work.

Henry Ford III

denachoman wrote:

Sorry if I have mislead by referrring to track rod ends when I should have said something else (it's Double Dutch to me I'm afriad). I have the invoice from the Renualt garage in front of me....

Labour €118.75
Tie Rod End €89.21
VAT €28.07

That is very expensive. The parts and labour bills are way OTT imho.

BrianD3

OldmanMondeo wrote:

As for the BS about Renaults, it's not BS, I used to own a Megane and I was in charge of a fleet that contained mainly Renaults when I started in that job. Greatest piece of crap in my opionin are Renaults. Would advise anyone from buying one, actually that goes for most French cars.

Yet in a recent poll in this very forum the majority of those who responded said that Renault were as good as the japanese makes or no better/worse than any other European make. Many of those who said Renault were crap had never owned one, were relaying 2nd hand information or wouldn't go into specifics about what exactly is crap about Renaults.

Also it's very easy for someone to come on the internet and make a sweeping statement about Renaults/French cars and then state their "credentials" about how they've been in "The Trade" for x years or whatever.

Ok, say you fail the nct on worn brake pads, you go to your garage and you toldthat the disc are scored and will need replacing, or you fail on a torn CV boot, the garage tells you that the CV joint needs to be changed also, This is normal. I would say that the first Garage failed in the customer care as the mechanic should have checked all part attached to the tie rod to ensure that the car was safe.

I'm not saying the Renault garage were right but from thier POV if they did go replacing other components resulting in a big bill then someone could have come on here and inaccurately posted "Renault charged me 2000 quid for a track rod end!" The garages are damned for being unprofessional if they don't replace the extra parts and damned for generating unnecessary work if they do.

OldmanMondeo

Brian, I have owned a Renault, I had a Citroen Xsara as a company car-van. Neither was abused by my, both serviced on the button by main dealers, yet they kept giving trouble. Friends and Family of mine have or do own French cars, Renault, Peugeot or Citroen so what I know is from first hand, not from poll's.

As for the garage, you are right, they should not just fit the new parts, they should contact the owner and explain the situation. Ny the sound of the OP, this never happened. It leads me to believe that either the mechanic is just a lazy git or the dealer is unprofessional. I would expect my garage to contact me if my car needs any extra work done. During a recent service I was told that the front pads only had a couple of thousand miles on them and advised changing, this is what a garage should do. As it happens I am changing the car very soon and did not see the point of changing the pads.

BrianD3

OldmanMondeo wrote:

As for the garage, you are right, they should not just fit the new parts, they should contact the owner and explain the situation. Ny the sound of the OP, this never happened. It leads me to believe that either the mechanic is just a lazy git or the dealer is unprofessional.

Or the Renault mechanic spotted that the parts were somewhat worn but concluded that they would be acceptable until the next service at the earliest. The mechanic in the 2nd garage may have had a different take on it. We'll never know for sure

I would expect my garage to contact me if my car needs any extra work done. During a recent service I was told that the front pads only had a couple of thousand miles on them and advised changing, this is what a garage should do. As it happens I am changing the car very soon and did not see the point of changing the pads.

A set of pads is a cheap enough item nobody would grumble about that as long as the garage seeks authorisation before going ahead. If OTOH you have no intention of selling your car and are told you need to replace something expensive you may think that the garage are trying to pull a fast one. Unfortunately there are unscrupulous garages out there who will prey on owner's fear/ignorance by telling them they need work done which doesn't need doing. Just look at how some dealers revise downwards manufacturer recommendations when it comes to oil changes while at the same time revising upwards the spec of the oil needed. A nice little earner for the garage.