GJJ/early UFC docu

john kavanagh

click

waterford mma

awesome. thanks

kenpo_dave

That was great John, thanks By any chance do you know if any Kyokushin or more specifically Daido Juku fighters faught in the first UFC?

john kavanagh

this guy

kenpo_dave

Cool. Thanks John. Gerard Gordeau is very high up in the style that we train in down at Kokoro. As far as I know, there was a split in our organisation recently and Gerard Gordeau is now the head of what remains of the old organisation with Henk Kuipers being the head of the new organisation and Jon Bluming being regarded as founder of both.

bjj-fighter

Yeah I saw that before.Its great.The Gracies dont get enough gratitude.They basiclly invented MMA

kenpo_dave

bjj-fighter wrote:

Yeah I saw that before.Its great.The Gracies dont get enough gratitude.They basiclly invented MMA

This is a great misconception. Jon Bluming, Kyokushin 10th Dan and Judo 9th Dan, was mixing the two styles into an all-round system already back in the mid - late 60's. In 1980/81 he help bring Daido Juku (MMA Karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjGQk-k2ZA) into being, some 12 years or so before UFC. And there have always been styles that have had at least 2 ranges. All the Gracies did was make all-round fighting main-stream, which ofcourse they deserve alot of gratitude for.

bjj-fighter

kenpo_dave wrote:

This is a great misconception. Jon Bluming, Kyokushin 10th Dan and Judo 9th Dan, was mixing the two styles into an all-round system already back in the mid - late 60's. In 1980/81 he help bring Daido Juku (MMA Karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjGQk-k2ZA) into being, some 12 years or so before UFC. And there have always been styles that have had at least 2 ranges. All the Gracies did was make all-round fighting main-stream, which ofcourse they deserve alot of gratitude for.

Thats what I meant by basicly,they made it main stream and perfected it.I wouldnt really class Karate as MMA anyway because I unfortunalty used to do Kempo Karate and knew how rubbish it actually is.Rickson was in the first telivised NHB/MMA fight in around 1982 anyway.

kenpo_dave

bjj-fighter wrote:

Thats what I meant by basicly,they made it main stream and perfected it.I wouldnt really class Karate as MMA anyway because I unfortunalty used to do Kempo Karate and knew how rubbish it actually is.Rickson was in the first telivised NHB/MMA fight in around 1982 anyway.

MMA is a lose term used for all-round fighting. The Gracies are more grappling dominated. So, Gracie MMA is better for where they developed it and perhaps for the ring but may not be ideal for every situation or place. And in my opinion the current state of MMA is not due to the Gracies but everyone who trains in it. I think the Matt Hughes vs Royce Gracie fight was a good example of how far MMA has come since the Gracies. I believe that grappling dominated MMA doesnt cut it anymore. GJJ looked great in the beginning because very few people they faught could grapple. But now grappling is mainstream so GJJ isnt dominant anymore. As for Kenpo it, like any style, is only as crap as the people doing it. My instructors have done all the hard sparring (which about 20 years ago in Ireland was done without even gumshields) and they have used it in reality, Kenpo does work, if the person using it has train properly and can make it work.

bjj-fighter

kenpo_dave wrote:

Kenpo does work,.

hahahahahahahaha

kenpo_dave

bjj-fighter wrote:

hahahahahahahaha

Im not saying that Kenpo works because I think it does or because Im told it does. I KNOW it works because Ive had to defend myself on a few occasions and a few of my instructors work the door and have used it too. Perhaps the junior Kenpo that you did doesnt work but real Kenpo absolutely does, if trained properly.

bjj-fighter

kenpo_dave wrote:

Im not saying that Kenpo works because I think it does or because Im told it does. I KNOW it works because Ive had to defend myself on a few occasions and a few of my instructors work the door and have used it too. Perhaps the junior Kenpo that you did doesnt work but real Kenpo absolutely does, if trained properly.

Use your Kempo on someone that actually can throw a punch or someone who knows anything about BJJ and you'd get battered

kenpo_dave

bjj-fighter wrote:

Use your Kempo on someone that actually can throw a punch or someone who knows anything about BJJ and you'd get battered

Against BJJ, perhaps, but the same could be said to a Boxer, or a Thai/Kickboxer. Kenpo was developed for use on the 'street' with a 'hit the guy before he knows theres a fight' frame of mind. Every style has a specific situation it was developed for and to use a style in a different situation, eg Kenpo in a ring, it would have to be modified to work. Using Kenpo in MMA sparring is like using a knife at a shooting range. Or, to put it another way. BJJ is a great system, but put a BJJer up against a skilled Silat person with his/her knife, the BJJ is going to be pretty useless. I know Im adding weapons here but my point is to say that you cant take a style out of its intended situation.

bjj-fighter

kenpo_dave wrote:

Against BJJ, perhaps, but the same could be said to a Boxer, or a Thai/Kickboxer. Kenpo was developed for use on the 'street' with a 'hit the guy before he knows theres a fight' frame of mind. Every style has a specific situation it was developed for and to use a style in a different situation, eg Kenpo in a ring, it would have to be modified to work. Using Kenpo in MMA sparring is like using a knife at a shooting range. Or, to put it another way. BJJ is a great system, but put a BJJer up against a skilled Silat person with his/her knife, the BJJ is going to be pretty useless. I know Im adding weapons here but my point is to say that you cant take a style out of its intended situation.

Yeah what your saying is right but bringing weapons into it is a bit stupid.A gun could give you the advantage against the best mma champs in the world(maybe not against Fedor haha)

kenpo_dave

No, my point is that if you any style out of its intended context its probably going to be useless, simple as that. I also do MMA by the way.

john kavanagh

kenpo_dave wrote:

Kenpo was developed for use on the 'street' with a 'hit the guy before he knows theres a fight' frame of mind.

can you suggest a good training method for this? in other words how would you teach someone, using kenpo as the delivery system, to achieve this 'frame of mind'?

i got to 2nd degree bb, won the all ireland kata and sparring championships and never got the whole "it'll work on the street vibe"

Colm_OReilly

I never knew you won in kata John, well done!

bjj-fighter

john kavanagh wrote:

can you suggest a good training method for this? in other words how would you teach someone, using kenpo as the delivery system, to achieve this 'frame of mind'?

i got to 2nd degree bb, won the all ireland kata and sparring championships and never got the whole "it'll work on the street vibe"

Is there anything that you arent good in haha

dlofnep

kenpo_dave wrote:

This is a great misconception. Jon Bluming, Kyokushin 10th Dan and Judo 9th Dan, was mixing the two styles into an all-round system already back in the mid - late 60's. In 1980/81 he help bring Daido Juku (MMA Karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjGQk-k2ZA) into being, some 12 years or so before UFC. And there have always been styles that have had at least 2 ranges. All the Gracies did was make all-round fighting main-stream, which ofcourse they deserve alot of gratitude for.

Technically, Pankration was the first organised form of MMA.

In modern day, Helio Gracie was fighting in mixed style matches back in the 30's.

kenpo_dave

dlofnep wrote:

Technically, Pankration was the first organised form of MMA.

In modern day, Helio Gracie was fighting in mixed style matches back in the 30's.

Well, its obvious that Martial Arts has done a full circle. An all-round system is the logical way to go. Helio fought in mixed style matches, but did he have a solid standup system aswel as a solid grappling system? Jon Bluming was actively training and teaching the mix of Kyokushin and Judo in the 60's

john kavanagh

another good mma docu

Roper

kenpo_dave wrote:

Well, its obvious that Martial Arts has done a full circle. An all-round system is the logical way to go. Helio fought in mixed style matches, but did he have a solid standup system aswel as a solid grappling system? Jon Bluming was actively training and teaching the mix of Kyokushin and Judo in the 60's

Ah theres always been people doing lots of stuff. Most Karate styles contained some sort of all round fighting system before they specialised or whatever. At the end of the day, does it really matter who was doing what first?