Macp

john kavanagh

Modern army combatives program.

roo1981

Mmmmmmmmm looks like theyv picked up something from those UFC sponserships

john kavanagh

i find it strange people would concentrate on WWII combatives over this. where else would you see people prefer 1940s technology over the most up-to-date innovations other than martial arts lol

Dyr

The guy in that video is matt larsen i think, he had a whole raft of lengthy discussions over on e-budo about the revised combatives material a few years back. If anyones interested in this stuff those threads are well worth reading

If memory serves he maintained US army personnel dont have the time to train to high proficiency levels so they focused on stuff that covered as many bases as posible and basically imparted gameness in their men

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

where else would you see people prefer 1940s technology over the most up-to-date innovations other than martial arts lol

AHEM!!! I think Jack Dempsey and other great fighters, where throwing jabs, crossing, hooks and uppercuts long before the 1940s...and if my memory servers me correctly, i think the last boxing match I watched, which was eeeerrrrrrr, let me think????? OH yes, yesterday, had the exact same punches, and thats over 80 years later!

in fact if you read Championship Boxing by Jack Dempsey , he says modern boxers have lost alot of what boxing was really about.

droc

LOL as if all there was to boxing was the different punches...

They probably have and gained other things, the game was completely different back then, not neccesarily better but different.

But I don't think that was John's point, he wasn't talking about what techniques were used in boxing, but rather what's used in Combatives

DROC

Baggio...

.

john kavanagh

droc wrote:

But I don't think that was John's point, he wasn't talking about what techniques were used in boxing, but rather what's used in Combatives

gerry this was obviously my point! another example of what you are talking about is olympic wrestling or judo - probably not much difference in the technique used now than what was working for the past century, just like boxing. of course they've always had the element of 'competition' to remind them what works and what doesn't

john kavanagh

Baggio... wrote:

Just out of curiosity John, why have you decided to give an anti-grappling seminar? I always thought you had no interest in self-defense... Don't get me wrong I think it's a great idea - just curious is all.

because rather than just talk about training all day long on the net i'd like to actually meet some SD/RBSD and give them a wee look at how we train.....and use that opportunity to see what they have to offer

as one of the voices of RBSD its a great pity you can't make it, i would be much better able to answer the rest of the questions in your post in person. you are always welcome to take me up on my offer of a free 1-2-1 session anytime and we could go through a couple of situations

Baggio...

john kavanagh wrote:

you are always welcome to take me up on my offer of a free 1-2-1 session anytime and we could go through a couple of situations

Thanks for the offer John... I might take you up on that after the Chrimbo. Especially if it's a one to one - crowds make me nervous:) .

Millionaire

what, I am trying to get through, if say me, I am doing Thai Boxing, and doing my right cross, and sparring etc etc... now if I turn that fist, into an open palm strike, its pretty much the same thing! ala combatives...

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

what, I am trying to get through, if say me, I am doing Thai Boxing, and doing my right cross, and sparring etc etc... now if I turn that fist, into an open palm strike, its pretty much the same thing! ala combatives...

agreed. now do you reckon a lot of combatives guys train like thai boxers? rounds upon rounds on the pads and plenty of sparring?

Baggio wrote:

I might take you up on that after the Chrimbo...

i hope you do! i would like to see some of your training and i'm sure what i'm talking about will make more sense when you 'feel' it, rather than me trying to articulate what i mean. take care jk

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

agreed. now do you reckon a lot of combatives guys train like thai boxers? rounds upon rounds on the pads and plenty of sparring?

The best guys in Combatives would, based on my contact with them. The instructors I follow like geoff T, and lee morrison (he boxes) would.

However we both know that there is many who do not. their the ones that are all talk and no action and often are the product of these fast food KM courses. in other words they have not a clue... god pity them.

Please take this point on board... Krav Maga, (combaitves/RBSD) got a very bad start in Ireland due to one certain indivdual and his "be Rambo in 24 hours" type money grabbing marketing. and as per other post the Israeli KM top guys near wet themselves laughing about it when I showed them, and it also reflected in my skills in KM when I went to Israel, I was one of the worst in the instructors course, and it was only my kickboxing ability that got me through it.

astfgl

Why is the silly man on the video telling me to pass guard by giving my opponent a triangle?
(And whats wrong with side control? and what happened to north south? and whats wrong with guard?)

john kavanagh

astfgl wrote:

Why is the silly man on the video telling me to pass guard by giving my opponent a triangle?
(And whats wrong with side control? and what happened to north south? and whats wrong with guard?)

lol i think you've missed the point

yes gerry i get you but i think you're the exception! i know from meetin you and training with you that you'd have no problem getting 'stuck in' with MMA or Stand-up sparring if you were still around....but in my experience you are the exception!

most would rather stay in their comfort zone, training on their own laying a beatin on 'Bob' not wantin to expose themselves to the uncomfortable feeling of adrenaline that comes with knowing you have to spar....the same feeling you get pre-fight!!

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

yes gerry i get you but i think you're the exception! i know from meetin you and training with you that you'd have no problem getting 'stuck in' with MMA or Stand-up sparring if you were still around....but in my experience you are the exception!

most would rather stay in their comfort zone, training on their own laying a beatin on 'Bob' not wantin to expose themselves to the uncomfortable feeling of adrenaline that comes with knowing you have to spar....the same feeling you get pre-fight!!

Thats a nice compliment the day after me birthday. Ta very much!

One must push out of our comfort zones to learn...if we are really serious about MA. I could have "retired" to Sensei zone a few years back, mugendo black belts around my waist and became an "elder statemans" of where I was training back then. (or maybe is "has been" a better word! LOL!).

And in 2007 God willing, unfortunately I could not start this year as planned, I shall be attending the MMA school which is a 10 min from my house, to learn ground and MMA clinch as a fumbling begineer...more comfort zone pushing.

Yes it certainly is the same feeling, gloving up, even for a controlled spar against a better training partner. sometimes I used to suffer jerking knee caps with fear , but its not as bad these days, though it can still be a very uncomfortable feeling!

Oh I sure your guys will get a chance to slam me, choke me and tap me out, as I hope sometime in later 2007 to pop over for a trip home. I shall certainly be willing to come, keep my mouth shut, ears and eyes open and learn from lads with way better skills and abilities than me.

You know...MA can be a life long journey. I was reading about Dan Insanto (thats Matts original teacher..right) he is 70 odd and he takes 3 private BJJ lessons a day. never stopped learning. He was 46 before he took up MT.

Also somewhere I read about some man in his 40s decided to take up Judo for a hobby and many many years later ended up a 5th dan in judo.. now thats inspiration!

john kavanagh

beautiful clinch video for more inspiration!

Millionaire

wow. excellent stuff. ! fast moving, exciting and very SD applicable.

Did you see the guy neck bridging about 1 min into the vid. neck like a bull!

yomchi

Millionaire wrote:

Thats a nice compliment the day after me birthday. Ta very much!

One must push out of our comfort zones to learn...if we are really serious about MA. I could have "retired" to Sensei zone a few years back, mugendo black belts around my waist and became an "elder statemans" of where I was training back then. (or maybe is "has been" a better word! LOL!).

And in 2007 God willing, unfortunately I could not start this year as planned, I shall be attending the MMA school which is a 10 min from my house, to learn ground and MMA clinch as a fumbling begineer...more comfort zone pushing.

Yes it certainly is the same feeling, gloving up, even for a controlled spar against a better training partner. sometimes I used to suffer jerking knee caps with fear , but its not as bad these days, though it can still be a very uncomfortable feeling!

Oh I sure your guys will get a chance to slam me, choke me and tap me out, as I hope sometime in later 2007 to pop over for a trip home. I shall certainly be willing to come, keep my mouth shut, ears and eyes open and learn from lads with way better skills and abilities than me.

You know...MA can be a life long journey. I was reading about Dan Insanto (thats Matts original teacher..right) he is 70 odd and he takes 3 private BJJ lessons a day. never stopped learning. He was 46 before he took up MT.

Also somewhere I read about some man in his 40s decided to take up Judo for a hobby and many many years later ended up a 5th dan in judo.. now thats inspiration!

Have to hand to you Gerry, John is right. Being all the way over there in Thailand learning from the masters. Takes a lot. Look me up when you get home I'd like to train with you, maybe you could show me some MT combinations and conditioning. How knows we might even bump into mutual friends

Millionaire

LOL! we'll teach the mutual friends the KM Gun defence techniques ;-)

yomchi

Millionaire wrote:

LOL! we'll teach the mutual friends the KM Gun defence techniques ;-)

LOL I can only imagine!

Colm_OReilly

That's beautiful!
Really shows the stubborness of wrestlers though!
And, what's most important, the sexiest throws were all Greco, up yours Batman!

Millionaire

Actually I was suprised, I never saw much clips of Greco and it was quite exciting to watch...and I assume more fun to train.

westhamutd

Millionaire wrote:

wow. excellent stuff. ! fast moving, exciting and very SD applicable.

Did you see the guy neck bridging about 1 min into the vid. neck like a bull!

Thats looks very good but do you think it would work on the street , a good boxer would have broken their jaw before they grabed them , at least that what my friend David told me he has boxed at international level for ireland and fought Wayne McCullough and lost as a junior. I am not trying to start a row but just curious to see what you all think.

tks westhamutd

john kavanagh

have you ever seen a boxing match? i've seen boxers clinch with each other but only in every single fight i've seen - funny how the other guy didn't just break his opponents jaw before he could grab him??:D

westhamutd

I did not mean to cause an argument , i was just pointing out what my friend said and he has quite a lot of experiance as i pointed out.

tks:)

Millionaire

well there is Clinch in Thai Boxing, which I train in now. and when I first came to thailand and went into clinch (I am 90kg and 6 foot) with small 60 -65Kg experienced thai fighters, they threw me head over heels in clinch for about 3 months, before I began to figure out how to work clinch. and a Greco guy would be much more able to throw you better in clinch than a thai boxer.

westhamutd

David was saying that the way they kept their hands low as they run in would set them up for a right or left cross and that they would be running into it I will get him to register with the board..

Tks:)

yomchi

westhamutd wrote:

David was saying that the way they kept their hands low as they run in would set them up for a right or left cross and that they would be running into it I will get him to register with the board..

Tks:)

Excellent! Where does he train out of? I've knocked around the boxing scene for years. It'll be good to have a boxers input to the board.

paul moran

That wrestling was amazing, waa covered in goosebumps watching that! Is that trained in Ireland?

In fairness Westhamutd wrestling is (in a manner of speaking) used in a defensive way against strikers and those lads are tough. They would take alot of punishment to grapple with the boxer who would be screwed once they are in there!

Of course they are open to the few digs due to there hand position but if there was ever a boxer versus a wrestler fight both would have to adapt their styles.

But where or where would we ever see anything along those lines... it's all just wishful thinking:D

westhamutd

Hi Jon

Hes not training any more women and drink I am always trying to get him back but he has no intrest, he used to train in braken boxing club balbriggan

Colm_OReilly

westhamutd,

That's a highlight reel, showing the sexiest moves across a lot of tournaments (or maybe just a complete FILA world championships, I'm unsure) but either way it's a lot of matches.

[brag]As someone who trained with the Irish Olympic Boxing Team[/brag] yes they could quite easily knock seven shades of cr@p outta me in boxing, but while showing Cathal O'Grady some tasty clinch it was quite easy for me to control him and move him around (me=65Kg, Cathal=~95Kg) and I hadn't got super wrestling like these guys, I just knew more.

In a pure wrestling match, you've no need to protect your head against strikes, so it's perfectly okay to keep your hands low. The modifications for SD use would be pretty minimal.

Paul,
The way any IAWA club trains has never impressed me that much. Too much time on solo conditioning and rote technique "drilling" and not enough on live sparring for me.

Colm

yomchi

Colm_OReilly wrote:

[brag]As someone who trained with the Irish Olympic Boxing Team[/brag] yes they could quite easily knock seven shades of cr@p outta me in boxing, but while showing Cathal O'Grady some tasty clinch it was quite easy for me to control him and move him around (me=65Kg, Cathal=~95Kg) and I hadn't got super wrestling like these guys, I just knew more.

That was 96 when Cathal was on the Irish team for the Olympics. I remember training in St Saviours the year that year, he won the seniors fighting out of saviours. Unfortunatley he got KO'd in the first round of the olympics.

Were you training boxing back then Colm?

westhamutd

Hi Colm

You make a very good point about the hands being low for a reason I stand corrected thanks for your reply:)

Colm_OReilly

I can just about throw a jab, badly, that's the state of my stand up!

I was with the Irish Boxing Team in 2004 prepping for Athens (well, prepping Andy for Athens!) and Cathal was one of the coaches then. It was a work experience thing in college. Work being training in the morning then going home.

Ahh, College days!

yomchi

Colm_OReilly wrote:

I can just about throw a jab, badly, that's the state of my stand up!

I was with the Irish Boxing Team in 2004 prepping for Athens (well, prepping Andy for Athens!) and Cathal was one of the coaches then. It was a work experience thing in college. Work being training in the morning then going home.

Ahh, College days!

Now thats a job worth getting out of bed for!