Importance of Position

dvdfan

Ok so i know this is important, ive read some books and you always hear people saying how important position is but i know i dont understand position enough and so i tend to ignore it too often and feel its a weakness in my game that i want to sort, i play the cards and dont worry too much about position.

If i could understand the whole strategy behind position then i would tighten up on this and improve my game. I know some of things on position are obvious but it just confuses me when i have AJo and people say i would sometimes drop AJo in early position and play it other times, why? I would sometimes fold AJo myself if someone i know is a reasonable player raises, but im not going to fold just because of my position, i struggle to see the logic in this (im not saying there isnt and thats why i want to understand it. Just like i didnt understand that calling a raise with 22 wasnt clever, now i know my odds of hitting a set on the flop arent enough to call a raise etc etc)

Anyway i dont want to come across as arrogant or stupid, i know position is important but just cant understand the full logic of why. I understand after the flop its good to be in position and not OOP, i also know calling with AJo or A10 in early position might not be the best move at a table of solid players because theres 6 people to act after you and you might have to throw down your hand to a big raise. I play 95% STT's at $20 level if that makes any difference. So if anyone can give me some advice on this it really would be appreciated.

Hectorjelly

Its much easier to play hands in position rather than out of position, for a number of reasons. A lot of situations in poker are so marginal, that being out of position changes what would be a profitable situation into a losing one.

One quick example is a normal okish player with 100bbs raises. CAlling oop with 67s againsta guy like this is bad. In position its probably ok.

I try and base my entire strategy around playing very small and few pots out of position.

ArmaniJeanss

dvdfan wrote:

but im not going to fold just because of my position, i struggle to see the logic in this.

I understand after the flop its good to be in position and not OOP

OK, so you understand how nice good position can be post flop, your trick then is to work out pre-flop where you will be post-flop. So if utg raises and you call in utg+2 then you will have position on him etc.

Scotty #

dvdfan wrote:

I know some of things on position are obvious but it just confuses me when i have AJo and people say i would sometimes drop AJo in early position and play it other times, why?

If you miss the flop its a lot easier to still win the hand if you have position.

BTW: In my opinion AJ is by far the most costly hand you can play out of position.

gerry87

Fron an early position raiser AJ would usually be at the lower end of their range, so calling w/ AJ could get you in alot of trouble whether you hit either.

dvdfan

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

OK, so you understand how nice good position can be post flop, your trick then is to work out pre-flop where you will be post-flop. So if utg raises and you call in utg+2 then you will have position on him etc.

I think i understand, so its not really the fact that calling with AJ in early position means there is 6 people preflop to act its more important that i will be one of the first to act postflop and the people calling in late will be in position and im at a disadvantage. As silly as it sounds i didnt think of it this way and it actually makes good sense now.

Do you think position is less important at the $20 stt level when theres probably 1-3 good player at a table of 9 or should i still stay strict regardless of the opposition quality.

ntlbell

dvdfan wrote:

I think i understand, so its not really the fact that calling with AJ in early position means there is 6 people preflop to act its more important that i will be one of the first to act postflop and the people calling in late will be in position and im at a disadvantage. As silly as it sounds i didnt think of it this way and it actually makes good sense now.

Do you think position is less important at the $20 stt level when theres probably 1-3 good player at a table of 9 or should i still stay strict regardless of the opposition quality.

Position is important regardless of the stakes IMO

Mr. Flibble

I think one reason to play in position which doesn't seem to be stressed much, but is one of the most important imo, is that you get to bet last.

A huge amount of profit in poker comes from value betting marginal hands on the river, and it is very difficult to do this if you are first to act. For example: if you have AQ on a board of A2776r for instance and you have called down bets on all streets and an agressive readable player checked to you on the river. Alot of the time he will have been betting a weaker ace and you can value bet - which at this stage of the hand is going to be quite a few BBs, say half the pot.
It would be very difficult to value bet this hand if you are oop as you don't have the information of his river action which gives away the strength of his hand. So by being in position in this hand you have posssibly made maybe 30BBs more than you would make oop, which is huge.

BobSloane

I play mosly 10 and 20$ STTs too and i think position is crucial. If you find weak players at the table you can call almost any hand against them in position. (By weak i mean the gutless ones who bet 100 into a 600 pot post flop-and there are plenty of them who always assume the worst when they see the flop. Call and raise on the turn and you will take their chips all day)

Having position on the opposite kind of bad player is an equal joy as he will bluff his chips away as you call all his raises.
I find at this level of STT there will be usually only be two or 3 players at the tables who are trying to take advantage of position on the weak. I think if you've a quarter of the chips when it comes to the bubble of 5 in a ten player game you're in good shape and the bubble comes after about 40-50 hands usually. You're only going to pick up so many premium hands in that time so the rest of the hands you play should be played in good position as there is a much higher chance of picking up those pots at mininmal risk. The aim of the game in STTs as far as i can see is to have as many players as possible covered before the crippling blinds/all-in madness starts and you end up in a series of coin-flips.

You don't want the image of being super-tight as you would like your premium hands paid off too and as alot of players take no notice of position they won't remember that you play alot of hands from the cut-off and button and they'll think you're a looser player than you actually are.


This is what i find anyway - i'm no expert on position by any means - but the player in position has the advantage when it comes to keeping the others guessing.

A bit off topic but what kind of results does anyone out there playing STTs look for(obviously you aim to win but is there some satisfactory % of wins or cashes ye aim for)? Or what kind of Bankrolls do ye play off proportionaly to the entry fees? I reckon 2-4% but just wondering what others play off

ArmaniJeanss

dvdfan wrote:

Do you think position is less important at the $20 stt level when theres probably 1-3 good player at a table of 9 or should i still stay strict regardless of the opposition quality.

Much at NTLBell said, its important at every level.
You could argue its more important at $20 STT level purely because most players there won't actually be aware of its importance, so the knowledge adds to your advantage.

Bobsloane,
If it helps I ran at between 20-30% ROI and 45-50% ITM in $5,$10,$15,$20 STTS, and am running at about 15% ROI, 40-45% ITM in $25 STTs.
(In case you don't know ITM = InTheMoney, and ROI = ReturnOnInvestment (so 20% in $10 STTs would be an average profit of $11x.22 = $2.20 per game)).

Bankroll, I don't really worry about it, but 20-40 buyins sounds ample.

Hitman Actual

dvdfan, check out ntlbell's AA 5/10 thread for an example of a situation that would be easier to play if the he had position on his opponent. It would still be a tough hand, but nowhere near as hard to play.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055024470

dvdfan

lenny_leonard wrote:

dvdfan, check out ntlbell's AA 5/10 thread for an example of a situation that would be easier to play if the he had position on his opponent. It would still be a tough hand, but nowhere near as hard to play.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055024470

Yeah, true, very good good example of how important position can be, could save or win you alot in that scenario plus his opponent is getting info (as in ntbells bet size) for free. Realising now how important position can be.:)

kebabfest

poker is all about information.
Think about it this way the more information you have the better your chances of maximising your winnings and minimising your losses.

When you are in position (e.g. last to speak after the flop) you have more information about everybody elses hands than they have about yours.

This is the reason that when you are in position you can play with more marginal hands as you should be able to judge better where you stand.

phantom_lord

There are occasions where being oop of position has an advantage, ie where the first bet in wins. But generally being in position is very in important.

nicnicnic

phantom_lord wrote:

There are occasions where being oop of position has an advantage, ie where the first bet in wins.

this is the case late in a tournament or stt when shorthanded.

also many people don't realise that the check in the dark when first to act is to gain position without giving information away

phantom_lord

nicnicnic wrote:

also many people don't realise that the check in the dark when first to act is to gain position without giving information away

yup, works a treat.