Questions:1) Does God want everybody to be saved, and 2) "War in Heaven"?

maitri

Hi!

I’ve been doing a little Bible studying lately and have come across some things in the NT that seems a little puzzling when compared to what I thought is common Christian doctrine or teaching. So I have two questions that I hoped maybe some of the Christians on this forum could say something about:

1)Does God want everybody to be saved?

I’ve always thought that it was Christian teaching that god wants everyone to be saved, but in the following verses Jesus seems to explain that he teaches in parables on purpose so that some (bad?) people will not have the chance to understand his teaching and to turn and be forgiven and healed.
So then God doesn’t want everybody to be saved?
Or how do you read/interprete this verses?

When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'
(Mark 4:10-13)

The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'
(Mark 13:10-16)

2. Can there be/has there been "war in heaven"?

The other “strange” thing is from the Revelations. Now I know that the revelation speaks in pictures and symbols and was probably never meant to be understood literally, but still the allegation of a “war in heaven” is very hard to grasp. How do you interpret/understand this picture? Do you think there really has been a war in heaven? And if so, how can that be if heaven is supposed to be a perfect place (or state of mind) where no sin is tolerated or can exist?
If on the other side you see the notion of “war in heaven” as strictly symbolic, how then do you interpret it?

“And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”
(Rev 12:7-10)

I hope you don’t find my questions offending (because I don’t mean them to be) I just want to know how you understand these things.


M.

Barnabas

To the best of my knowledge Jesus is quoting one of the prophets. The general meaning of this is possibly that those who turn away from God have a hardening of heart which makes it even more difficult for them to turn to him. Ignoring God means it will be even more difficult to hear him. I think the Old Testament reference points to a time when the people were unfaithful to the Covenant and because they didn't want the truth they were unable to recognise it when it was presented to them by the prophets.

God has a universal will to salvation. I think that some of our protestant brothers may hold that soem people are predestined to hell (i.e. God created them and know that they will be lost and so does nothing to save them) Though I may be misquoting that position and doing them a disservice. For Catholics we are all pre-destined or called to live eternally with God. If we don't get there it will be entirely our own fault. God wants everyone to be saved. God of course knows who will and won't be saved but that knowledge does not cause the person to be lost. At every moment God is urging us to accept the grace for salvation. Each day and at every moment we can choose to accept that or to reject it.

As for the War in Heaven. Well it does mention it in Sacred Scripture. If I am not mistaken it is generally thought that all the angels were put to the test and some failed that test by rebelling against God. Now this test was not in heaven with the beatific vision of God (something which when once attained one never loses) but in some immediate state prior to entry into the full vision of God which the good angels enjoy. The war referred to is between satan and the angels who fell with him and Michael (Who's name means the question 'Who is like God?') as 'captain' of the good angelic forces. Michael banishes these angels from ever entering heaven and they are cast into hell.

Of course I could be wrong in this and hopefully someone more theologically equipped than I will give a better account.

BrianCalgary

God does want everyone to come to Him:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The verses quoted above with regard to the parables
Mark 4:10-13 is a quote of Isaiah 6:9-10.

The following as a commentary on the Isaiah passage:
Do we take this commission at face value? Does the Lord really want to prevent his people from understanding, repenting, and being healed? Verse 9, which ostensibly records the content of Isaiah’s message, is clearly ironic. As far as we know, Isaiah did not literally proclaim these exact words. The Hebrew imperatival forms are employed rhetorically and anticipate the response Isaiah will receive. When all is said and done, Isaiah might as well preface and conclude every message with these ironic words, which, though imperatival in form, might be paraphrased as follows: “You continually hear, but don’t understand; you continually see, but don’t perceive.” Isaiah might as well command them to be spiritually insensitive, because, as the preceding and following chapters make clear, the people are bent on that anyway. (This ironic command is comparable to saying to a particularly recalcitrant individual, “Go ahead, be stubborn!”)

In my opinion, those who choose to accept Christ can see what He is communicating. Those who want nothing to do with Christ look for the wholes and miss the point entirely.

After one particular parable Matthew 21:33-46, the pharisees heard the parable, understood it and their response was to kill Jesus because they didn't like the message, instead of doing the right thing, which would have been to repent.

BrianCalgary

The war in Heaven did take place. Satan and a portion of the angelic host attempted a military coup.

They were then expelled because to your point, Heaven is a perfect place and the rebellious just couldn't be there.

Satan and his minions spend their time getting back at God by attacking the creatures that God loves most: humans. Satan hurts God by tempting and deceiving mankind away from God.

maitri

Thanks for your answers, Barnabas and Brian!

Hi Barnabas !

Barnabas wrote:

God has a universal will to salvation.

Well, that was also my idea too about the Christian view on this, and it’s what I learned in Church when I was little: That God wants everybody to be saved. And of course it is really much nicer and more compatible with the Christian view that God is Love than is the idea of predestination to eternal torment in Hell.

Brian agrees with you and referred to 2 Peter 3:9:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

And here’s another quote that supports the Claim that God want’s everybody to be saved

1 Timothy 2:3-4

God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.

Doesn’t that mean, BTW, that if everybody – humans and angels - are not ending up as saved, God has actually lost in the end?


However, I still haven’t got an answer from you to my question, namely how do you interpret the verses I asked about so that they don’t contradict 2.Peter and 1. Tim 2:3-4? To me it really seems that they really do:

But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'
(Mark 4:10-13)

As I see it – and I know he’s referring to a prophecy, but that doesn’t change the meaning of it - Jesus is saying in very clear words that he is speaking in parables so that some people will not be able to understand and to turn and be forgiven. It says: “otherwise they might turn and be forgiven”.

Is Jesus here misquoted?

Or being ironic, as Brian says, if I understand him correctly?

Barnabas wrote:

To the best of my knowledge Jesus is quoting one of the prophets. The general meaning of this is possibly that those who turn away from God have a hardening of heart which makes it even more difficult for them to turn to him.

But John 12: 39-40 seems to say that it is God who hardens their hearts so that they will not turn and be forgiven:

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."

Joh 12:40

And this is equivalent with many other passages of the Bible which tell about God hardening the hearts of some people so that they will be punished. Some examples:

1. Joshua 11:20
For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

2. Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.


3. Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.


4. Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

5. Exodus 14:8
The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.

How do you combine the faith in that God is Love and want everybody to be saved with the idea that he hardens some people's hearts so they won't turn?


Hi Brian !

BrianCalgary wrote:

The following as a commentary on the Isaiah passage:
Do we take this commission at face value? Does the Lord really want to prevent his people from understanding, repenting, and being healed? Verse 9, which ostensibly records the content of Isaiah’s message, is clearly ironic. As far as we know, Isaiah did not literally proclaim these exact words. The Hebrew imperatival forms are employed rhetorically and anticipate the response Isaiah will receive. When all is said and done, Isaiah might as well preface and conclude every message with these ironic words, which, though imperatival in form, might be paraphrased as follows: “You continually hear, but don’t understand; you continually see, but don’t perceive.” Isaiah might as well command them to be spiritually insensitive, because, as the preceding and following chapters make clear, the people are bent on that anyway. (This ironic command is comparable to saying to a particularly recalcitrant individual, “Go ahead, be stubborn!”)

You mean Jesus is using irony and is just joking when he says that he is using parables so that some people won’t be saved?

Hmmmm...that is of course a possible – and actually a really interesting - way of interpreting it, and I must say would never have thought of that possibility myself...

But then all the quotes about God hardening people’s hearts (above) must also be irony?

And all these verses too:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And what about John 12:

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them." Joh 12:40

These verses don’t really seem like irony to me (though I cannot be absolutely sure about that of course)… does it to you?

Though I must say the idea of a God – described as Love - who hardens people’s hearts so that they will not be saved and create people that he knows - and even decides by hardening their hearts - will go to hell for eternity is very absurd to me. (I like your notion of a God who wants everyboy to be saved much better... )
As is the idea of a loving God who orders an army to kill non-combatant women, children and infants (e. g. Ezekiel 9:5-7 and. Samuel 15:2-3) ) or who orders soldiers to kidnap young virgins from their families to be their wives (Judges 21:10-24) or even order soldiers to murder the young virgins entire families (probably including mother, father, baby brother, older sister aunts uncles and best friends) and then take the virgins as wives. (Numbers 31:7-18)

Isn’t there a posiblity that the Bible is not really infallible? Because all this cannot be irony, I think.



As for the war in Heaven:

BrianCalgary wrote:

The war in Heaven did take place. Satan and a portion of the angelic host attempted a military coup.

They were then expelled because to your point, Heaven is a perfect place and the rebellious just couldn't be there.

But how could there be a war in a perfect place to begin with?

Barnabas wrote:

As for the War in Heaven. Well it does mention it in Sacred Scripture. If I am not mistaken it is generally thought that all the angels were put to the test and some failed that test by rebelling against God. Now this test was not in heaven with the beatific vision of God (something which when once attained one never loses) but in some immediate state prior to entry into the full vision of God which the good angels enjoy. .

So the war was not actually in Heaven, as you see it?

----

I am sure (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you are believers because somehow you have some kind of a powerful experience in your lives of some power that can be called "God" or "Love" and that this is something Good.

What I don't get is how - and why - you make the link from your personal experience of "God"/"Love" and to the idea that every single word in an old collection of selected texts called the Bible, is absolutely true and infallible (to the extent that some here on this forum are actually willing to state that the slaughter of infants reported in Samuel 15:2-3 must be good because the Bible say it was done on Gods orders - as well as the starting a marriage in Numbers 31:7-18 with killing your young virgin wife's entire family ) and that there therefore are no contradictions in it.

Neither do I understand the belief, that you both seem to have, in that everything taught by the authorities of your Church must be true.

BrianCalgary

maitri wrote:

Neither do I understand the belief, that you both seem to have, in that everything taught by the authorities of your Church must be true.

You have so many questions in here. If I miss some over the next while feel free to reask.

A couple of definitions and understandings first.

I don't believe what the authorities of my denomination teach nor am I in full agreement with some of our elder board or pastoral staffs positions on some issues. However we have agreed to disagree on matters which we consider secondary. What we do agree on is our denominations statement of faith and the essentials contained therein. If my denomination where to waver on the essentials as the Anglican church is doing and the United Church of Canada has done, I would leave that denomination and go find another with which I could agree and would give me a chance to grow.

On the matter of biblical infallability I thought I had my book with me today but I don't. I'll get to that a bit later.

thanks for your patience.:o

maitri

Hi Brian!:)

Thanks for your kind answer!

BrianCalgary wrote:

A couple of definitions and understandings first.

I don't believe what the authorities of my denomination teach nor am I in full agreement with some of our elder board or pastoral staffs positions on some issues. However we have agreed to disagree on matters which we consider secondary. What we do agree on is our denominations statement of faith and the essentials contained therein. If my denomination where to waver on the essentials as the Anglican church is doing and the United Church of Canada has done, I would leave that denomination and go find another with which I could agree and would give me a chance to grow.

I'm glad to hear. And I'm sorry for having ascribed to you opinions that you don't have! I will try to not repeat that mistake in the future...

BrianCalgary wrote:

You have so many questions in here. If I miss some over the next while feel free to reask.

Well, yeah... that post of mine became overly long.. I know...Sorry for that, too! I'm just happy you had the patience to read it all

BrianCalgary wrote:

On the matter of biblical infallability I thought I had my book with me today but I don't. I'll get to that a bit later.

I would be very interested to hear your opinions/thoughts on that one.

BrianCalgary wrote:

thanks for your patience.:o

No problem! You're welcome.

Maitri

Mac Giolcach

Hi to all, first time poster here. I believe that God wants to and in fact will save all. I think that a lot of the problem we hve is with confusing the process for the goal. I believe that God does things in stages,like building a house.

Imagine a house being built, the plasteres are working at the moment, along comes someone with some tins of paint. Foreman says "don't want them in here take them out" Somebody unskilled in house building may think that the tins of paint are to have no part in the house if they heard that staement. But the truth is they will be inclueded. Just not yet.

Jesus said to the apostles at one stage -go through the land of Judea but don't go to the gentiles for I have come for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (paraphrase) . If you were to just quote that verse as dogma you could build a case that most of us should also be lost. But the key issues are timing and context.

The bible contains many statments and hints that all will eventually be saved. But at differet stages some will be lost. Eg flood of Noah 8 were saved the rest were lost. But afte the resurection of Christ the ones who were lost were savedby the personal preaching of Crist Himself.

Stuart.

Suff

I would say...

I dont understand the term saved!, maybe Guided/ find the true path is better, I'd say yes GOD would want all his people to be guided to him.

War in Heaven!??? no such thing!
think Logically,.. how could a creation be able to challange his creator and think it would be able to succeed ?

Think about it,.... if they did what can they do?...kill GOD or exile him to some place!?
that would surely would create a conflict with characteristics of GOD!

I think if there was a war it would be between Satan and Adam.

maitri

Mac Giolcach wrote:

Hi to all, first time poster here. I believe that God wants to and in fact will save all. I think that a lot of the problem we hve is with confusing the process for the goal. I believe that God does things in stages,like building a house.

Imagine a house being built, the plasteres are working at the moment, along comes someone with some tins of paint. Foreman says "don't want them in here take them out" Somebody unskilled in house building may think that the tins of paint are to have no part in the house if they heard that staement. But the truth is they will be inclueded. Just not yet.

Jesus said to the apostles at one stage -go through the land of Judea but don't go to the gentiles for I have come for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (paraphrase) . If you were to just quote that verse as dogma you could build a case that most of us should also be lost. But the key issues are timing and context.

The bible contains many statments and hints that all will eventually be saved. But at differet stages some will be lost. Eg flood of Noah 8 were saved the rest were lost. But afte the resurection of Christ the ones who were lost were savedby the personal preaching of Crist Himself.

Stuart.

Thanks for the answer, and welcome, Stuart!
Those are interesting thoughts.
Do you think that eventually even the devil (if such an entity exists) will be saved?

Suff wrote:

I would say...

War in Heaven!??? no such thing!
think Logically,.. how could a creation be able to challange his creator and think it would be able to succeed ?

Hi Suff!
That seems to be a logical problem, yes.

BrianCalgary

Mac Giolcach wrote:

Hi to all, first time poster here. I believe that God wants to and in fact will save all. I think that a lot of the problem we hve is with confusing the process for the goal. I believe that God does things in stages,like building a house.

Stuart.

Welcome Stuart.

If you think that God will end up saving all how do you reconcile that with the verses like?

Revelation 20:13-15

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

BrianCalgary

Suff wrote:

War in Heaven!??? no such thing!
think Logically,.. how could a creation be able to challange his creator and think it would be able to succeed ?

Think about it,.... if they did what can they do?...kill GOD or exile him to some place!?
that would surely would create a conflict with characteristics of GOD!

I think if there was a war it would be between Satan and Adam.

Ok Suff. How do you answer your belief of no war in Heaven and the following verse:

Revelation 12:7-9

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

I agree, it makes no sense. How could anyone defeat God? Satan thought he could and to this day still believes he can. However, Jesus defeated him and defeated death, through His act on the cross.

There is no conflict with the character of God at all, what the battle in Heaven did show though, was the true character of Satan.

mymind

Many are called but few are chosen.

It is impossible to please god without faith.

God is calling all people to repentance, to recognize we are sinners and to realize the remedy Gods Son Jesus. God gives us that faith it is a gift from god and from it you know your salvation is sure! Read Johns Gospel slow you will find 1 who the person of Christ is 2 Where your faith comes from 3 Who keeps that which you believe.

Read Hebrews 11:1 giving the definition of what faith is.

Remember when Jesus died the vail in the temple was torn from top to bottom the gift of god came and was spent. The Messiah was made shown to all salvation has come. Remember Paul on the road halfway to Demascus he heard a voice from heaven. The lord Jesus came to Paul and revealed himself and the scales from the eyes of paul fell to the ground. His eyes were open the vail was lifted.

There is also a verse in refrence to Isreal that the vail is still upon there hearts even until this day. God takes each heart in his own way to reveal himself and each man is given a number of years to come to repentance and believe after that comes judgement.

May I make a suggestion to read a King James American Version. I believe King James is the true intended word of God.

mymind

In regards to the War in Heaven it was the Angel of light that wanted to be worshipped and make himself equal with God or better than God. The creature wanting recognition above the creator. He was cast down from heaven taking 2/3 of the angels with him. I am not sure of if any choice were given that situation. I am sure God wants fellowship with mankind and though we make poor choices in our lives we have Jesus to make intercession for us. We will not beable to make poor choices as Satan once we are in the presence of God forever. If God was cruel we would have been devoured long ago but instead God in his endless love has given us. Ministers of his love and each man a number of year to come to the hope promised in Christ Jesus. God could have robots but instead wants something more than gold trust, love, fellowship and to be called friend. Though we worship God the father we have the father to tell everything to for nothing will be hidden.

Mac Giolcach

BrianCalgary wrote:

Welcome Stuart.

If you think that God will end up saving all how do you reconcile that with the verses like?

Revelation 20:13-15

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hi Brian, as I am sure you know we all have certain verses that we must reconcile with our positions. THe calvinist has to reconcile the verses that lend support to arminianism the arminian will have to do the same with the calvinist verses. Those that believe in universal reconciliation have to look at verses like the one that you quoted and those who believe in eternal death and hell have to reconcile verses like :

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive. (psalm 22:27-29)

and many others.

I begin by pointing this out because those who disagree with anothers position will often accuse them of trying to make a verse fit their paradigm. (Not saying that you would do this). Of course theology cannot be built on just "verses" proof texts strung together. I won't get into a detailed analysis of the verse from Revelation for now. I believe rev is a highly symbolic piece of scripture, I think that the verse you quoted is a picture of firey judgment that many will face. But suffering for a literal eternity is a pointless punishment (IMO). I believe God has a purpose and such a judment would be a precurser to them coming to drink freely from the water of life. In othe words judgment? yes forever? no.

BrianCalgary

Mac Giolcach wrote:

Hi Brian, as I am sure you know we all have certain verses that we must reconcile with our positions. THe calvinist has to reconcile the verses that lend support to arminianism the arminian will have to do the same with the calvinist verses. Those that believe in universal reconciliation have to look at verses like the one that you quoted and those who believe in eternal death and hell have to reconcile verses like :

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive. (psalm 22:27-29)

and many others.

I begin by pointing this out because those who disagree with anothers position will often accuse them of trying to make a verse fit their paradigm. (Not saying that you would do this). Of course theology cannot be built on just "verses" proof texts strung together. I won't get into a detailed analysis of the verse from Revelation for now. I believe rev is a highly symbolic piece of scripture, I think that the verse you quoted is a picture of firey judgment that many will face. But suffering for a literal eternity is a pointless punishment (IMO). I believe God has a purpose and such a judment would be a precurser to them coming to drink freely from the water of life. In othe words judgment? yes forever? no.

Thanks for the response.

I agree with the we all have certain verses that we must reconcile with our positions. and it is part of the life long learning and is why I ask the questions. There are verses that I miss that I need to reconcile to. As long as the Bible as God's word is formulating you stance and not your stance formulating your interpretation of the word.