Doing Deals

smurph

Didn't know if I really wanted to post this or not but here goes,

We are down to 4 in the 300 game, I had been massive chip leader but after a few technical hitches, myself and Denis (dealer from fitz) were even in chips. Denis i know is an aggresive player who has a knack of picking his spots well. The other 2 players were Colin Stuttard, a northern player who I have tangled with in both cash and tournaments and he is a good, very good player and a guy called Will Fitzpatrick who I have no idea what he is doing at any given time and I certainly cannot get a handle on him.

Anyway there is €16,500 in prize money and Denis suggests a deal, 4K each and €500 for the dealers. I had knocked nearly everyone out of the game up til then and felt confident about continuing so I said no. I also had aload of Coors Light, so I had dutch courage aswell. What was going through my mind was if we took 3,800 each and played on for trophy and €800 for 1st prize.

While im thinking of that type of deal im BB and decide i'll suggest that deal after this hand. , blinds are 8k 15k Denis makes it 50K to go , fold fold around to me, i look down at KJ and call. Flop comes 2, 8, 10, im first to speak and go all in for approximately 60-70 k as I feel that denis's range is very wide here , he calls and turns over pocket 99's and Murphys law im gone for 4th place and €2.5K.

I felt at the time that it was the right decision, but I do feel that I did not think it through enough. Any opinions.

ianmc38

It's always the person who refuses the deal that's next out!

If you're feeling good and confident of winning the tourney, then there's no need to do a deal...

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

I was wondering if you were going to post this - I think i may have started a thread on the topic previously or at least I certainly brought another thread off topic and onto this topic.

Discussion previously had essentially centered around people who refuse to do deals because they feel "I can outplay this table". Now as I pointed out before we are beasts of nature and whilst we may not readily come to this conclusion in our conscious state of thinking something deep down inside of us shouts at us and says "deal, no way mate - i had way more chips than you 30mins ago - I will crush you"

The thought itself isnt the harm - its what this thought forces you to do! You have triggered something inside which has told you that you can crush the table - you start to play more aggressive and you are no longer picking your spots like you should - you make a mistake and you are invariably the next player gone........

Just remembered it was ocallagh thread about winning one of the tourneys during the fitz festival which i pulled off topic - his opponent had refused a deal HU, Gholli refused a deal in an EPT qualifier - he was next out the door, PillowTalk refused a deal in another EPT qualifier and was next out the door also... I am sure there are other people who have posted similar here also.

Maybe you feel none of the above applies to you in this situation but this is the way I look at it. For What Its Worth I never refuse a reasonable deal (if somebody is taking the pìss i will obviously refuse)....

El Stuntman

smurph wrote:

I had been massive chip leader but after a few technical hitches, myself and Denis (dealer from fitz) were even in chips. Denis i know is an aggresive player who has a knack of picking his spots well. The other 2 players were Colin Stuttard, a northern player who I have tangled with in both cash and tournaments and he is a good, very good player and a guy called Will Fitzpatrick who I have no idea what he is doing at any given time and I certainly cannot get a handle on him.

there's your answer there, I think the booze and the adrenaline persuaded you that you could outplay 3 useful players?

the HH just proves you weren't thinking straight!!

DapperGent

How many chips did the other two have?

smurph

Yeah pretty much what i thought aswell, but it is like an unspoken rule, refuse to do a deal, next out. Ah well, :rolleyes: I do deals actually quite alot but I think the Bottles of Coors light made me have a cunning plan. Live and learn I suppose.

ps what does HH mean and FWIW

LuckyLloyd

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Samba

Unless it's life changing money i'm refusing any deal. Memories of an 8 way split in the Fitz 50 double chance sends shivers down my spine.

This is a poker tournament and there should be one winner, not 8!

In the SE EPM 200 game I refused a deal when down to 4/3 and then 2 players.


p.s check raise was the way to go to make Denis fold his 9's

Hitman Actual

smurph wrote:

FWIW

For what it's worth.

Am I right that everyone had <10BBs at this stage, and are about even in chips? If so, then a deal isn't a bad idea at all, but is probably €break-even in the long run i.e. you're not losing any money by doing the deal.

Edit: Just re-read the OP, you and Denis were even chip-leaders, with two shorter stacks. I wouldn't do a deal so, but with blinds so high compared to stack sizes, I think it's still a bit of a lottery.

Hitman Actual

Samba wrote:

p.s check raise was the way to go to make Denis fold his 9's

Probably not with the blinds/stacks/pot size as is. I'd say Denis pushes anyway.

smurph

Samba wrote:

Unless it's life changing money i'm refusing any deal. Memories of an 8 way split in the Fitz 50 double chance sends shivers down my spine.

This is a poker tournament and there should be one winner, not 8!

In the SE EPM 200 game I refused a deal when down to 4/3 and then 2 players.


p.s check raise was the way to go to make Denis fold his 9's

Nah Denis wasn't going to be folding his 9's there was only one higher card on the board, I put him on Ax to be honost and went for gold. If I check im 90% sure he pushes here. Bad timing.

Anyway the weekend was brillant, organised really well, everyone had a great time, and I cannot thank the lads enough, and I would recommend any of the Green Joker Poker tournaments. There is a great mix of players, northern, local, Dublin etc., which makes for great craic at the tables.

Gholimoli

As im sure you know the fact that you went out next has nothing to do with refusing the deal.
You went out because you played the hand badly for all your chips. You lost and went out. End of story.

When the deal was suggested you felt like you could do better and you refused.
There is nothing wrong with that at all.
BCB mentioned a few people including my self who refused to deal and they went out next.
I think this is absurd.
I have and will always refuse to make a deal if I feel I am better than the remaining better hence have a BETTER CHANCE of getting more than the suggested deal.
I have also accepted deals in the past simply because I thought if I didn’t have much of an edge.
I was 3 handed in the Fitz 50 once and I had more chips than the other two remaning ladies.
I accepted the deal then as I was tired and felt I wouldn’t be playing my best.
I also accepted the deal when HU against a very good player in the 500 game recently .
In the EPT qualifier I was playing well and better than the remaining players so I refused it.
The hand I went out on was AK v QQ .had I won the pot I would have no doubt I would win this.
It didn’t go my way and I was out.
If the same setup presents it self again and again I will always always refuse and don’t give a feck if im the next person out as long as I play well.

Mr.Plough

smurph wrote:

I also had aload of Coors Light, so I had dutch courage aswell.

coors light gives you oestregen, not courage.

Bandana boy

I never accept deals and have always benefitted postively from turning down a deal
If you believe there is more money to be made from playing on than doing a deal then go for it i say.

I wouldnt be concerned about you having ended up worse than the deal and would only question myself if I felt that after being knocked out my assumption of my strength was wrong.

ianmc38

Gholimoli you're factually wrong. it's scientifically proven that the person who refuses the deal gets knocked out next.

5starpool

I think you should have accepted that deal for a number of reasons Smurph.

1. You had loads of Coors in you, too many to be playing your best game in my opinion.
2. You had a huge chip lead at one point, but not any more.
3. Blinds were going up and the other 2 guys weren't that far behind in chips.
4. It was late and I was tired and wanted to go home instead of watching ye

I see your point about not wanting to deal if feeling good and I have been there too, but some people are more open to deals than others I guess. Also I think point 1 above is the important one here and the reason why you should have dealt.

sikes

with blinds like this and the three other players know roughly what they are at, its a card catching contest, and you dont have an edge.

also you dont have enough chips for a stop n go on the flop.

smurph

All good points above, Goggle eyes im afraid. Next time, maybe i'll stick to the minerals , although I had great fun.

Thanks Dom for you support that night, I know like me you needed your beauty sleep:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Solksjaer

To ALL!
I've done a few deals in the past (one of which I was slated for here but sure I was knackered and nearly all in) However, going forward I've decided I will only do a deal with a player/s I consider WORSE than me (not many I know out there :-)) Seem strange? My logic -> I look on it as a challenge to win these tournaments and if I'm at a table of really good players I usually do better (I don't know why) So to beat a FT full of really good players is the type of challenge I like and if I win it's a worthy victory.
Whereas a table of let's say average players ( like myself you might say) I don't consider the achievement half as much so I'd deal .

I know it make no sense , but that's how I view live poker these days, it's not my living so It's not really about the cash it's about the challenge. So If I refuse a deal with you It's a compliment. Having said all that if I'm broke and need cash point me to the fish! (like now)

DeVore

People who say they will never accept any deal are either:

1. Idiots.
2. Liars.

I can prove this logically. Anyone wants to argue it, I'm happy to do so.

Secondly you do a deal the same way you make a call or bet or fold. You do it when the EV is in your favour.

You optimise the payout to you from the situation you are presented with the info you have. You work out the probabilities of you coming first second third whatever, as best you can. You factor the average you come out with and you compare that to the deal. If the deal is more, you take it. If less, refuse it.

There are many factors in deal making just as there are many factors in making a call, bet or fold. Could I get more? If I stick it out will I get a better offer (the quivalent of implied odds)? How am I playing, how does that compare to them, what are the chip counts, can I suggest a better deal for me, can I pressure these guys in the game to come back and renegotiate a better deal for me.

But in the end there should be few reasons to take or refuse a deal based on anything other then money. Even winning the WSOP and taking the title has a monetary value if you want to hold out for that. Factor it in as cash if you like but ultimately, anything other then cash value is a consession to ego and -EV.

DeV.

Solksjaer

DeVore wrote:

People who say they will never accept any deal are either:

1. Idiots.
2. Liars.

I can prove this logically. Anyone wants to argue it, I'm happy to do so.

Secondly you do a deal the same way you make a call or bet or fold. You do it when the EV is in your favour.

You optimise the payout to you from the situation you are presented with the info you have. You work out the probabilities of you coming first second third whatever, as best you can. You factor the average you come out with and you compare that to the deal. If the deal is more, you take it. If less, refuse it.

There are many factors in deal making just as there are many factors in making a call, bet or fold. Could I get more? If I stick it out will I get a better offer (the quivalent of implied odds)? How am I playing, how does that compare to them, what are the chip counts, can I suggest a better deal for me, can I pressure these guys in the game to come back and renegotiate a better deal for me.

But in the end there should be few reasons to take or refuse a deal based on anything other then money. Even winning the WSOP and taking the title has a monetary value if you want to hold out for that. Factor it in as cash if you like but ultimately, anything other then cash value is a consession to ego and -EV.

DeV.

Can't say I agree with all of this, for some it's winning that counts for others cash and for others just playing is their trip. Let's say you are a multi millionaire, would you enter a winner take all game and then do a deal.....People have different agendas, and whilst a lot of the above is true for most people, It's not for all, and I would not consider someone who says they won't do a deal as an idiot or a liar. I myself have done stupid deals, even gave half the prize whist heads up to a guy with much less chips, not out of fear of losing but out of a feeling of sportsmanship and I had a great night playing in that particular tourny plus he needed the dough .
I also play golf with v low handicappers my bets are nearly always EV- but when I win well I bask in my ego for quite a while, don't care if i collect or not.
Anyway, if speaking holistically about entering tournys only to win as much cash as possible then your post is correct. One thing is right in this world though, the bigger the ego the bigger the eventual MINUS.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

DeVore

Perhaps I'm being a little harsh when I catagorise people who dont care about money as being in the idiot category. Its true, if you play tournies as part self agrandisement, part charity then when it comes to deciding the deal you might refuse it out of hand because only the win means anything to you and only if it comes through defeating the players at the table.
Thats idiotic in my book but then I pay part of my rent with poker playing so thats just my approach. I do my charity separately.

If you play because you like the feel of cards on each other and its the only thing that gets you off, then you are unlikely to do a deal in a deepstacked 1$ tournie too.

We can create ever more bizarre and contorted logical exceptions but I dont know one poker player for whom the money means nothing. Money is the means of keeping score!

Let me explain the idiot vs liar thing briefly because it might explain better what I mean.

You have one 1k chip left at the final table. Every other player (who are all inferior to you) have 100k. Blinds are 500/1k.
They offer an equal split.

Do you take it:
Yes = Liar
No = Idiot

Dont like this analogy because its too unrealistically contorted? Give yourself 10k in chips. Yes/No? Give yourself 20k, yes/no?

Show me someone who turns this deal down and I'll show you someone who's ego is costing him money and there are a lot of them out there.

Do I refuse deals? Sure I do, I've turned down deals before when they were terrible or I wasnt getting the best of it imho. I've nothing against people who turn down deals, or generally dont do deals, or expect a higher chunk of the pie then I might think they deserve. Thats all well and good (up to a point, most players are no where near as good as they think they are, consider that 100 players turn up again and again at tournaments where 10 get paid). I've no problem with people valuing their abilities highly, but there is a line (eg: 1k, 10k, 20k etc in the example above) where you are/arent willing to do the deal.

But dont tell me you have a "no deals" policy....

DeV.

Tar.Aldarion

Well, to people where wnning is all that matters, and money does not come in to it, they would never deal. I would rarely deal unless really tired.
I don't pay my rent with poker, I play to try to beat and read people.
I'm sure you will find a vast minority that will never deal.

Fatboydim

I agree with all the above [De Vore]

There is no such thing as never. Sure if you're Negreanu you can say I don't do deals. But he's probably the excption that proves the rule. One thing I will say is that it's important to do the right deal. And often when deals are struck it's at the end of a long session of cards. Brains are strained and everyone can go home happy. I've done two deals [That I can think of] And each time it was down to last three. Once with Colin strangely enough... and that time I had around half the chips in play and both Colin and I felt we could outplay the muppet in second place but he was such a muppet he could have luckboxed his way through. - Most recently was in the Galway Open where again last three and I had half the chips in play. the only thing I regret there is that I should have left the odd six hundred in play for the trophy as taking off two hundred each wouldn't have made a difference. But with no money to play for it turned into bingo.

You were just unfortunate Smurph as down to three you're deffo doing a deal. But congrats on playing so well in the first place. i left Drogheda with my head up my arse.

Solksjaer

Me personally, I have no real 'deal or no deal' policies in a monetary sense really apart from learning this damn game (which can be costly) and if I don't play against good players in high pressure situations I'll never improve and win the big ones, accepting deals willie(that's me) Nillie will lose me that experience.
Anyway i'm not good enough to earn my living at it so I'll surf the curve how I see it will benefit me in the long run EV + (whaoo I've learned to put EV in a sentence)

There is one occasion when I will definitely do a deal, when it's gone on way too long and Im up next morning....

Interesting thread this one......

DeVore

You can buy that experience at a cheaper price then playing someone who is better at you headsup for a large amount money. I've been practising headsup recently because I want to be able to rely on it to push deal making a bit further or if I come up against a nutter who simply wont deal regardless (actually they probably arent nutters, most of the deals I've suggested should have be thrown in my face with laughter )

DeV.

bubbleking

does anyone ever use the time when a deal is suggested to check a players mentality??

what i mean is it is sometimes obvious that a player is over anxious to accept a bad deal when there are still 3/4 players left. i would take this as a sign that a player is fed up/under pressure and would opt to play on instead of dealing unless i was getting a great deal.

the same applies to a player who is turning down a great deal - possibly overconfident/stubborn.

anyone ever use this time to assess player mentality to your advantage?

DeVore

Sure, and it can become part of the deal making process. If you think the person really wants a deal you might be able to shave some more off for yourself. Of if the deal isnt done you can take that information back to the table with you.

Btw, if all this seems very materialistic, I'm not like that normally but I'm very competitive and money is the way of keeping score in Poker. I've suggested and driven through deals with people I now consider good friends that I consider borderline theft but I'd do it again without a seconds thought.

DeV.

kincsem

Its a while since I was in a deal-making position.

If there are three or four players left why do some think they are better players? They all got there with a similar mix of luck and skill.

If the deal is based on stack size then you are getting paid for your play up to that point over hundreds of hands. The last few prizes can be settled in a much smaller playing time where luck must be a large factor.

There is a tendancy for the deal refuser to try to outplay the other players over a short time-span. They will be waiting to pick off his/her moves. This is probably why deal refusers are often next out.

Perhaps some people who refuse deals want the bragging rights of "tournament winner" or to prove to the others that they are superior?

I will do a deal or I will play on. Being firmly in one camp or the other is giving information.

Players who might not do deals
Alan Smurfit
Noel Furlong

The rest of us need the money

Hectorjelly

kincsem wrote:

If there are three or four players left why do some think they are better players? They all got there with a similar mix of luck and skill.

Haha, this is crazy! I remember doc farrell said something similar in a pub once. Pokers not like tic tac toe, you dont just get a firm grasp on the basics and then play a zero sum game for the rest of your life. I would think that is very rare that 3-4 players get to the end of a tournament and are close enough in skill for it not to make a difference. Thinking back to the last final table I was on (the 1st boards/se 200 fo), there was a huge difference in the skill levels between all of the players who got there. They were all tight reasnable players (excluding reggie of course) but some were vastly superior to others.

Doc Farrell

Fatboydim wrote:

i left Drogheda with my head up my arse.

and did that have a -EV or +EV influence on your driving? surely you wouldn't be able to use the mirrors much...?

hope all is well in Len land Len!

Samba

DeVore wrote:

People who say they will never accept any deal are either:

1. Idiots.
2. Liars.

I can prove this logically. Anyone wants to argue it, I'm happy to do so.

Secondly you do a deal the same way you make a call or bet or fold. You do it when the EV is in your favour.

You optimise the payout to you from the situation you are presented with the info you have. You work out the probabilities of you coming first second third whatever, as best you can. You factor the average you come out with and you compare that to the deal. If the deal is more, you take it. If less, refuse it.

There are many factors in deal making just as there are many factors in making a call, bet or fold. Could I get more? If I stick it out will I get a better offer (the quivalent of implied odds)? How am I playing, how does that compare to them, what are the chip counts, can I suggest a better deal for me, can I pressure these guys in the game to come back and renegotiate a better deal for me.

But in the end there should be few reasons to take or refuse a deal based on anything other then money. Even winning the WSOP and taking the title has a monetary value if you want to hold out for that. Factor it in as cash if you like but ultimately, anything other then cash value is a consession to ego and -EV.

DeV.

lol calm down Tom, there are situations where deals are appropriate to take and likewise those that are not worth taking.

Personally i'm only taking a deal if i have a field of tough opponenets, im outchiped or it's a complete crapshoot.

If there are three or four players left why do some think they are better players? They all got there with a similar mix of luck and skill.

that's a rather general statement and one i couldnt disagree with more.

If the deal is based on stack size then you are getting paid for your play up to that point over hundreds of hands. The last few prizes can be settled in a much smaller playing time where luck must be a large factor.

Tournament structure dependant if it's a crap shoot then yes I agree.

I don't play a whole lot of tournaments but from my experience all the big money is in 1/2/3 the jump from 3-1 is often a significant sum.

In a nicely structured tournament where you have generally been running a muck at a final table with a good chip lead, I would view a deal as giving up that 1st Prize money.

I've played alot of HU play online and considering I don't play online anymore, getting heads up in a tournament is somthing I would look forward to especially for a considerably larger sum of money, the pressure of the potential gain v loss simply would not affect my game where most average players would very much have the money rooted in the back of their mind.

That to me is an edge and one that is significant enough to refuse a deal.

To say that people who refuse deals are often the first out is nonsense imo.

Show me somthing to back that statement up and I might believe it for a milisecond.

Doc Farrell

Hectorjelly wrote:

Haha, this is crazy! I remember doc farrell said something similar in a pub once. Pokers not like tic tac toe, you dont just get a firm grasp on the basics and then play a zero sum game for the rest of your life. I would think that is very rare that 3-4 players get to the end of a tournament and are close enough in skill for it not to make a difference. Thinking back to the last final table I was on (the 1st boards/se 200 fo), there was a huge difference in the skill levels between all of the players who got there. They were all tight reasnable players (excluding reggie of course) but some were vastly superior to others.

I've changed my mind since then! No Deals! A la Marq! No deals!
(exceptfor the 15 euro omaha rebuy on Saturday nights in the Fitz! gotta do a deal there, actually I might play that tonight - might even do a deal!)

Samba

Doc Farrell wrote:

I've changed my mind since then! No Deals! A la Marq! No deals!
(exceptfor the 15 euro omaha rebuy on Saturday nights in the Fitz! gotta do a deal there, actually I might play that tonight - might even do a deal!)

Push for an 8 way split imo.

Doc Farrell

Samba wrote:

Push for an 8 way split imo.

oh, so sweet! 5 dollar profit! pure gambol!

RoundTower

Just offer a worse deal, e.g. offer to take 6k/4k for Dennis/3k/3k for the short stacks. This is good for you if they take it. And if they don't, then they'll have the same monkey on their backs that you did, thinking "**** I refused a deal I'm probably going to be out next".

RoundTower

Samba wrote:

p.s check raise was the way to go to make Denis fold his 9's

LOL check raise the flop, did you even read the hand?

ollyk1

Hectorjelly wrote:

Thinking back to the last final table I was on (the 1st boards/se 200 fo), there was a huge difference in the skill levels between all of the players who got there. They were all tight reasnable players (excluding reggie of course) but some were vastly superior to others.

Name names!

DeVore

Lol Samba, I dont know what makes you think I'm angry, I was actually feeling quite calm writing that!

MickL

RoundTower wrote:

LOL check raise the flop, did you even read the hand?

dennis still calls he put her on over cards as soon as they floped

DeVore

DeVore wrote:

People who say they will never accept any deal are either:

1. Idiots.
2. Liars.

I can prove this logically. Anyone wants to argue it, I'm happy to do so.

DeV.

You and your deals Devore! this usually comes up every couple of years, all 'll say is that theres no joy in second place, unless maybe your the fat kid or something

Samba

RoundTower wrote:

LOL check raise the flop, did you even read the hand?

Yes...yes....we have so much room to play check raise is the far superior move here.