train doors... beware

Marksie

I was travelling on the train from heuston which gets in at kildare at approx 17:10.
About halfway between newbridge and kildare i got up to get ready to leave and went to the carriage door.
The train was going full speed and the door lock was completely broken, in fact the door was swinging open. So i held it closed until kildare station.
I informed the staff there and it appears that the lock sticks so that it doesnt engage.
I got a "thanks a million".
He took teh carriage number as eithe 5223 or 6223.

Fact is if i hadn't been looking closely i would not have initially noticed the door wasn shut at all and it would have been all too easy for an accident to occur.
Also given that that train is totally jammed at times, it doesnt take a great leap toi imaging a scenario of someone falling out.
So beware..check the doors especially if you are in a packed train and may be forced against them.
Question is now.. who to report it to?

MarkoP11

It was 5223 on the 16:25 to Waterford, 6223 doesn't exist

What you should do is it leave it alone and stay back, pull the communication cord. There is a chance the door will impact on a bridge or a passenger on a platform. No one is going to complain if you pull the cord. You are very lucky you didn't get pulled out, a passing train or long overbridge would suck you out

Your report to the guard or any member of staff

There is a actually a tripple lock, the lock is double so even if it only catches slightly it will hold the door strong enough to survive a solid kick. The third lock is a manual key and locks the door leaving it sealed thats what the guard should have done in Kildare.

Safety reports are critical that IE have not fitted secondary locks on the doors on that type of trains so they only open when the guard releases them remotely. There is a history of people falling from this train type but the locks are proven safe, drink was a factor in one recent case a pattern repeated in the UK with the exact same lock mechanism

You had what is known as a 'incident' where something has the potential to cause damage or injury, you reported it to staff they should be a record somewhere if there isn't someone is going to get in trouble

Make a formal complaint to

Customer Relations Department
Southern & Western
Iarnrod Eireann
Heuston Station
Dublin 8
01 703 4499

You should get a acknowledgment within 5 working days

If you don't or are unhappy with the response. The we are investing line is crap, 1999 is when they where supposed to fit the secondary locks

Railway Safety Commission,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
County Dublin, 
Ireland
Tel. + 353 1 206 8110
Fax. + 353 1 206 8115
E-mail info@rsc.ie

Marksie

MarkoP11 wrote:

It was 5223 on the 16:25 to Waterford, 6223 doesn't exist

What you should do is it alone and stay back, pull the communication cord. There is a chance the door will impact on a bridge or a passenger on a platform. No one is going to complain if you pull the cord. You are very lucky you didn't get pulled out, a passing train or long overbridge would suck you out

Your report to the guard or any member of staff

There is a actually a tripple lock, the lock is double so even if it only catches slightly it will hold the door strong enough to survive a solid kick. The third lock is a manual key and locks the door leaving it sealed thats what the guard should have done in Kildare.

Safety reports are critical that IE have not fitted secondary locks on the doors on that type of trains so they only open when the guard releases them remotely. There is a history of people falling from this train type but the locks are proven safe, drink was a factor in one recent case a pattern repeated in the UK with the exact same lock mechanism

You had what is known as a 'incident' where something has the potential to cause damage or injury, you reported it to staff they should be a record somewhere if there isn't someone is going to get in trouble

Make a formal complaint to

Customer Relations Department
Southern & Western
Iarnrod Eireann
Heuston Station
Dublin 8
01 703 4499

You should get a acknowledgment within 5 working days

If you don't or are unhappy with the response. The we are investing line is crap, 1999 is when they where supposed to fit the secondary locks

Railway Safety Commission,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
County Dublin, 
Ireland
Tel. + 353 1 206 8110
Fax. + 353 1 206 8115
E-mail info@rsc.ie

Thanks for that. Yes it was only afterwards i realised that hey i could have gone here.
It didnt occur to me to pull the communication cord, my first thoughts were keep the door closed, keep others back and inform staff at Kildare.

The irish rail staff member at kildare was initially sceptical as when he turned the handle the lock engaged.

He closed the door opened it and slammed it and it didnt engage. He kept repeating it and it still wouldnt engage.

I actually couldnt get through to the number above so went through their ticketing website and again left a message on the platform 11 website which i hope gets through.

if i dont hear anything i will be onto the railway safety commission.
Those carriages are really well past their useful date.
But i have been on that train when it has been jammed to teh gills and people have been forced against the door. I hate to think what would happen if it went at that point, at least after newvridge, there are very few standing

MarkoP11

Thanks for that Mark,

The locks are tested every 48 hours, its also obvious externally if the lock is not engaged since the handle will flip to the locked position only if it is locked. I am very suprised that a door in such condition was allowed to continue in service.

Fact is simple, its a known problem in the industry, the HSE in the UK did a massive research project on this a while back. In the UK it is illegal for a mainline train with slam doors to carry passengers unless it has been fitted with a secondary lock controlled by the guard, the impression is the UK is an unsafe railway its not its a lot safer than here

Irish Rail decided not to fit such locks despite questions from the safety people about it, appearently it was 'not cost effective' since they assumed the coaches would be withdrawn by 2005-7, when in fact it will be 2009.

Interesting to note that the passenger safety guide currently at draft has no instructions on how to operate a manual door, Platform 11 has asked for them to be added

If anyone is in such a situation the advice is: get well back and to pull the communication cord, IE are supposed to confirm no one has fallen

If you close the door double check its locked by sticking your head out the window and confirming the handle remains horizontal, make sure the door is fully closed by giving it a good hard pull, particularly important at say Mallow where the line is banked, if you close the door softly it won't engage the full lock just the safety catch which will hold it but not as securely has it should

dowlingm

MarkoP11 - is that a Mk2 carriage?

Another article mentioning 5223

bryanw

marksuttonie wrote:

The train was going full speed...

I don't think "full speed" for IE would be all that fast... so not much chance of someone getting hurt!

MarkoP11

In the case of this train 75mph is max permitted speed, 70mph is the speed limit across the Curragh thus the train was at full permitted speed. A bad fall at 20 mph is enough to kill you

The coach involved is a MK2d type with slam doors, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_2#Republic_of_Ireland

A Mk2 coach is a all steel coach design developed by British Rail Engineering in the late 1960's. Irish Rail operate a batch of d revision coaches dating from 1972 all numbered in the 5000 range. There are referred to frequently as coffins owing to the horrible interior, useless air conditioning and serious corrosion problems

There have been a number of reported incidents with the doors and at least one person has fallen to her death in recent years (there was drink involved), also know of trains which lost a door etc. Passengers are quite concerned and the issue has been discussed at public meetings though it appears more on the ball commuters have intervened and ensured doors closed correctly, no reports of one opening in motion.

Marksie

MarkoP11 wrote:

, no reports of one opening in motion.

Strangely enough i was talking to one commuter i know at Kildare on the way back tonight.
Now its unverified but he claims that one door did open "a few weeks ago while the train was at top speed" and that there were people in the doorway at the time. I will paraphrase his words "they were clinging to each other terrified".

Now i don't want to appear too alarmist and cannot adequately verify the statement.

But i do wonder why no-one did report such an incident.

i have to admit having an extremely low opinion of Irish rail having dealt with them as part of the laois commuter group (now the reason i have to drive to kildare is a whole other issue). But they do tend to dismiss things very easily

enterprise

MarkoP11 wrote:

There are referred to frequently as coffins owing to the horrible interior, useless air conditioning and serious corrosion problems
.

The term "coffin" was coined by UK Rail Enthusiasts in the late 70's, early 80's who lamented over the loss of Mk1 & Mk2 non-air con type coaches on top link duties. On these coaches the window could be opened therefore you could hear the locomotive more clearly than you can on an air-conditioned Mk2 coach hence the term coffin.

Therefore, please don't distort the facts.

Got to agree with you on one point though, IE Mk2d's have a horrible interior!

DerekP11

enterprise wrote:

The term "coffin" was coined by UK Rail Enthusiasts in the late 70's, early 80's who lamented over the loss of Mk1 & Mk2 non-air con type coaches on top link duties. On these coaches the window could be opened therefore you could hear the locomotive more clearly than you can on an air-conditioned Mk2 coach hence the term coffin.

Therefore, please don't distort the facts.

Got to agree with you on one point though, IE Mk2d's have a horrible interior!

So that makes you the bigger trainspotter Enterprise. Right?:D

Or am I distorting the facts?

enterprise

DerekP11 wrote:

So that makes you the bigger trainspotter Enterprise. Right?:D

Or am I distorting the facts?

No, it makes me informed as I have read the history books.

There is distorting the facts and then there is distorting the facts for your own gains,

Marksie

MarkoP11 wrote:

Thanks for that Mark,

The locks are tested every 48 hours, its also obvious externally if the lock is not engaged since the handle will flip to the locked position only if it is locked. I am very suprised that a door in such condition was allowed to continue in service.

Fact is simple, its a known problem in the industry, the HSE in the UK did a massive research project on this a while back. In the UK it is illegal for a mainline train with slam doors to carry passengers unless it has been fitted with a secondary lock controlled by the guard, the impression is the UK is an unsafe railway its not its a lot safer than here

Irish Rail decided not to fit such locks despite questions from the safety people about it, appearently it was 'not cost effective' since they assumed the coaches would be withdrawn by 2005-7, when in fact it will be 2009.

Interesting to note that the passenger safety guide currently at draft has no instructions on how to operate a manual door, Platform 11 has asked for them to be added

If anyone is in such a situation the advice is: get well back and to pull the communication cord, IE are supposed to confirm no one has fallen

If you close the door double check its locked by sticking your head out the window and confirming the handle remains horizontal, make sure the door is fully closed by giving it a good hard pull, particularly important at say Mallow where the line is banked, if you close the door softly it won't engage the full lock just the safety catch which will hold it but not as securely has it should

Marko.. did you ever receieve a reply from irish rail?? I havent after nearly a week.
I am going to contact the safety commission above if you havent heard anything yet

MarkoP11

If IE have a bull**** excuse they reply when you have them nailed with date, time and numbers they seem to shy away. In my case it varies from 9 days to 8 weeks. IE won't deal with complaints where the complainant wasn't actually present

All letters are to be acknowledged within 5 days, allowing for an post, if nothing by Monday IE have failed the agreed standard

RSC is the way to go, make sure to note such a incident would not happen in the UK

Marksie

MarkoP11 wrote:

If IE have a bull**** excuse they reply when you have them nailed with date, time and numbers they seem to shy away. In my case it varies from 9 days to 8 weeks. IE won't deal with complaints where the complainant wasn't actually present

All letters are to be acknowledged within 5 days, allowing for an post, if nothing by Monday IE have failed the agreed standard

RSC is the way to go, make sure to note such a incident would not happen in the UK

i had tried their phone numbers and not got through..then sent to their website where it would be passed to the relevant section..so have heard nothing after a week.
I will drop an email to RSC and see what develops.

MarkoP11

Snail mail is the only contact method that falls under the standards, no obiligation to respond to phone or email

7034499 is the number on the letter head from customer relations in Heuston, if they aint' answering thats another problem

RSC are a very decent bunch, they have been proactive in seeking comments and feedback you will be dealt with in a very professional manner and should get a comprehensive answer

popebenny16

Here we have a thread where the o/p was left in a potentially dangerous situation. The facts are that these carriages are out of date and ought to be scrapped. There is also a reference to another dangerous situation in the thread where people were apparently clinging to each other.

However, it appears that Marko is distorting the facts and not only that but distorting them for his own gains by incorrectly using the term coffin (I assumed it was due soley to the horrible interior wood pannelling, but there you go) according to our beloved impartial moderator.

What gains could there be? Perhaps Marko wants to buy some cheap Mrk2D carraiges and by slagging them off here he is reducing the market price? Perhaps it is a part of the grand strategem of Platform11 to take over Irish Rail? Maybe, and I could be stretching the facts here, maybe he was trying to help a passenger who was found in a terrible situation with a very dodgy carraige (it is refered to in that linky above) for no personal gain whatsoever.

Whatever, its nice to know our beloved impartial moderator knows so much about these carriages but even armed with this insight he hasnt seen fit to offer any solution to the o/ps situation.

enterprise

Welcome to the discussion Pope.

I agree with you 100% that this was a very dangerous situation, why would I dispute this? I'll travel on these carriages a lot and as you know, I know it to; these carriages are past their sell by date. Hell I think the Cravens are better! As Marko took up the OP's claim and agreed to look in to it, why have too many cooks spoil the broth?

What I had issue with was the term coffin, nothing more, nothing less.

Hobart

popebenny16 wrote:

<crap...snip>
Whatever, its nice to know our beloved impartial moderator knows so much about these carriages but even armed with this insight he hasnt seen fit to offer any solution to the o/ps situation.

Hi Popebenny,

I was going to PM this to you, but as I'd rather not get into too deep a discussion with you on this, soI'll say it here in public.

By all means offer your own intelligent insight into these and other issues on this board, but if I see one more back-handed remark against any other user, and I include enterprise as a user here, I will ban you for a week.

Any more off-topic posting, and I will ban you for a week.

Bottom line, any more sh1te from you, and I will ban you for a week, or maybe for a period I choose at my discretion.

If you have an issue with these comments, or any aspect of the moderation on this board, take it to feedback or the help desk.

I hope that that's clear enough for you.

thanks,

Hobart.