English Rugby - Where to now?

connundrum

So Robinson is out, and is currently negociating the size of his severence cheque. With his record of 22 games and 13 losses including 7 in a row this year, is there any way back for this England team for the 6N and/or WC next year?

Since ROG's comments about the state of the English Premiership, a lot of people have commented on how poor the teams actually are - which is obviously an indicator for the national team's performance, or is it?

I would believe that no other nation apart from NZ could sustain an excellent team year on year without a glitch. England peaked for the WC in 2003 and I thought it obvious that they would faulter, with retirements and changing personell etc.

Gatland and Johnson seem to be the front runners for the job, can they do anything to rescue the situation?

Trojan

Gatland can, certainly. He's shown his coaching metal. I think he's the man for the job, strong enough to put up with the RFUs BS.

Johnson? I'm extremely sceptical. He's a great leader on the pitch, but that does not an International manager make...

Slightly off-topic... do you guys blame Robinson? I find myself feeling sorry for the guy, he's a great coach, very strong history with Bath, in a really unfortunate position trying to deal with the fallout from RWC2003.

It stikes me that the RFU were happier with him than SCW at the helm as they could bully him a lot easier where SCW would demand what he needed, regardless of external factors.

So is it all really Andy's fault?

(Aside: if this were Ireland, I'd be baying for his head on a platter, yesterday. I'm a hypocrit like that)

bugler

He hasn't been blessed with the players, Trojan, but ultimately his bizarre and plain wrong selections make him plenty culpable. Sanderson at 8 for example.

As for the backs, for the past couple of seasons they've been persisting with players like Noon (simply not good enough) or the horribly out of form at the time Mike Tindall. It's almost as though he has a self-destructive streak born of stubborness.

I think the past couple of seasons have shown how not to run an international side. It may have been a mistake to give AR the job initially, it was certainly a mistake to sack all the specialist coaches and leave him in the job. If RFU had any balls or he had any pride it would have been a clean sweep and they all would have gone.

What England need to do is blood their undoubtedly talented youngsters into the set-up without throwing them to the lions. Tom Rees at 7, Dan Ward-Smith at 8 are good players. Palmer and Jones have potential at lock. Flood should be groomed quick for the out-half slot if possible.

That's only half of it. They don't have an experienced play-maker at present and that hinders them. Who is there for the role? Mike Catt?

I can't see England coming back as a major force anytime soon. It will take time to blood the youngsters and it can't be done all at once.

Webbs

connundrum wrote:

So Robinson is out, and is currently negociating the size of his severence cheque. With his record of 22 games and 13 losses including 7 in a row this year, is there any way back for this England team for the 6N and/or WC next year?

Since ROG's comments about the state of the English Premiership, a lot of people have commented on how poor the teams actually are - which is obviously an indicator for the national team's performance, or is it?

I would believe that no other nation apart from NZ could sustain an excellent team year on year without a glitch. England peaked for the WC in 2003 and I thought it obvious that they would faulter, with retirements and changing personell etc.

Gatland and Johnson seem to be the front runners for the job, can they do anything to rescue the situation?

I also feel a bit sorry for Robinson, though I think that he should have gone after the last 6N as I feel England needed to have a completely fresh start and rebuilding. To me its reminiscent of Wales in early 80s where there was too much looking back on past glories and not building for a future (admittedly in Wales that carried on for about 2 decades!).

England are a bit short on quality players but think the GP has a lot to answer for, as the are far too many overseas players and all the team owners think about is the bank balance. So Robinson suffers from lack of personnel but equally hasn't really tried to adopt a playing strategy to match the players abilities.

I think thats one area that EOS hasn't been great in (and I think this is still being glossed over because of current results) is planning for the future as it won't be long before O'Connells, O'Driscolls etc aren't around/playing as well etc. and so the rollercoaster of international fortunes will continue.
I remember in 2002/3 how the press, pundits etc all said that England was going to be healthy for a long time to come as there was plenty of strength in depth. Where is that now? Its the leaders on the pitch that can't easily be replaced, and thats not something that can be coached.

CJhaughey

Gatland has said that he is not interested, Or perhaps his boss has said that he is not interested:)
I really think that the current malaise in English rugby is due to the outdated playing style that the clubs play in the GP.
It is still the same old "bosh it up, ruck and pass" game, with no-one looking to pass out of contact or pop-pass or any high skill manoeuvere at all.
Look at when Gatland ran Wasps to a HC medal and 3 premierships in a row they were playing some fantastic rugby then, real high octane skilled rugby nothing like the rubbish that has been played since he left.
It all comes down to skill levels and unfortunately despite the huge player base in the UK the general skill level is low, people derided the Super 12 (14) as powder puff rugby (S.Jones) and to a point they were right with a lock of forward emphasis, however what the AB's have shown is that with the right skills that come from playing fast rugby that the addition of a bit of forward power can win matches.
England won the RWC because they had a great kicker and a massive streetwise pack, without a demi-god kicker they were almost worthless.
Times have now changed and English rugby hasn't moved with them, the sooner they start playing intelligent rugby again the sooner they will recover.

MarVeL

Who would want the England job at the moment? Seriously less than a year to go to the World Cup, where the press are going to be talking about them as World Champions day in day out until they are knocked out and then the manager will be hung in effigy on every back page. Pass

patmac

MarVeL wrote:

Who would want the England job at the moment? Seriously less than a year to go to the World Cup, where the press are going to be talking about them as World Champions day in day out until they are knocked out and then the manager will be hung in effigy on every back page. Pass

I'd take it for the £300,000 pay off alone. In answer to the OP hopefully in the same direction.

davyjose

Trojan wrote:

It stikes me that the RFU were happier with him than SCW at the helm as they could bully him a lot easier where SCW would demand what he needed, regardless of external factors.

That's the difference between a good manager and a poor one, though. I do blame Robinson. When faced with players out and injured, he showed a startling lack of imagination in his team selection. Trying to squeeze the same style of play out of a defunct team.
But not nearly as much as the RFU
England were in a huge position to move on from the world cup (and yes they were without Wilko and MJ but that in itself could have helped clear the way for a revamp, and yes SCW left a corpse of a team), but I was in New Zealand for the last World Cup and i remember the furore, and the following efficiency with which heads rolled and changes made ... and look at them now.

il gatto

I think Robinson came to the job with misplaced arrogance, based on Englands past glories and their World Cup win. When the wheels came off, he didn't have anything to offer by way of imagination or leadership. I don't think the team he inherited wasn't that bad. I think a better manager would have gotten better performances out of them.
On paper, you couldn't see English rugby improving drastically in the near future, but they're stubborn and used to success. They might turn it around quicker than we expect. They'll have to struggle on with the Premiership though. There's too much private interest in the clubs. Major restructuring is probably not on the cards.
They may be in disarray, and we may love seeing them taking a kicking for a change, but they are a superpower of world rugby, so enjoy it while it lasts. They'll be back in a few years time.

spanner

the guy best who used to manage london Irish made a interesting point about the english premiership that the reason why the play isnt more Adventurous is because of the threat of relegation makes teams play conservatively

Amz

They're attempting to have a discussion about it on BBC1 at the moment, but it's actually kind of comedic. None of them have any answers so it's just going around and around in circles.

il gatto

I saw that interview on Hook and Pope with Dick Best. It may be true that some teams play conservatively with a view to not getting relegated, but the top teams, who should be looking to win the league have no excuse. He who dares, wins. I think it's more deep rooted than fear of losing. It's an over emphasis on the pack, and to be honest, they've not even got the players up front to get away with any more. And they've no decent out half either.