First Timer

FX Meister

No doubt there are countless threads here similar to this but I'll ask anyway. Looking into getting a bike as it's something I've wanted for years but for various reasons I've put it off. Luckily I'm in a position where I can keep my car and get a bike. Being a beginner I can't really go too big but don't want to get something too small that I'll want to change in a year or so. I've always wanted to get a Hornet so I want to go for a 250 Hornet. Has anyone any comments on whether this is a good or bad choice? I reckon I've about €4000 to spend on the bike, €1000 for helmet and gear and whatever lessons cost on top of that. Insurance is looking at €1300 for me. He said that was third party which I presumed was with fire and theft but not so sure now. Will the fire and theft push it up much further? I don't really want to start on a 125 that I'll want to change agin in a years time. One thing putting me off was when looking on the Hornets Nest owners club page I saw some nice injury pictures. And thinking of all the people I know who have bikes a lot of them have had accidents, mostly due to other drivers. I guess it's just a risk you have to accept.

wb

I'm sure the other guys will come along later with some good advice (I only have my bike 3 weeks) but regarding getting a 125 - You are probably right not to. I was driving scooters for years, and thought a 125 was the next logical step. However, I found out that it is a sepearate licence category than the other bikes, and if I passed my test, I'd still have do it all over again should I get a bigger bike in the future. It made sense to just get a 250 and be done with it

Idleater

wb wrote:

It made sense to just get a 250 and be done with it

Yes, I agree. Big bikes are the business.

I have a funny feeling the 250 hornet was pushing the learner legal limit power wise.

I started on a 500, and know plenty of people who started on Bantit 600's.

I will sell you my SV650 (learner legal) if you offer the right amount...

Absolutly loads of options for ya...

KTRIC

WOW, FX Meister coming to the Motorbike forum and asking for advice and there I was thinking he knew everything :rolleyes:

Here's a little quote I copied from here.

"Category A provisional driving licences carry a restriction. This restriction limits the licence holder to motorcycles (with or without a sidecar) subject to a power limit of 25Kw. This restriction continues for two years after you complete your motorcycle driving licence for this category and you have obtained a full driving licence for this category. This restriction was introduced for anyone applying for a Category A driving licence after 17 November 1999."

The Honda Hornet is 29kw (bikez.com), so a little outside the restriction. Not really worth getting it restricted either as it would make it a bit sluggish.

OP, if you're just starting off then you are a long long long way off getting anything like a Hornet. Find yourself a nice little CG125 and learn to love it.

FX Meister

Cheers for the advice, if it means I can't get the Hornet then I'll go for something smaller. I've driven a 250 CBR before and as far as I know they are the same engine in both bikes.

KTRIC: I never claimed to know everything, I don't know where you're getting that from. A lot of the time people don't get my sense of humour and presume I'm being arogant when I'm just being sarcastic and amusing myself. Maybe you fall into the group that don't get it.

Noelie

Insureance won't be f&T, you'll only get third party. I started on a cbr 250, still driving it two years later, I only use it for commuting and it does the trick.

Idleater

FX Meister wrote:

Cheers for the advice, if it means I can't get the Hornet then I'll go for something smaller. I've driven a 250 CBR before and as far as I know they are the same engine in both bikes.

You don't need anything smaller. You just need to get something bigger restricted.

Factory restricted will be insured as such, garage restricted will be insured as the exact same as the full power version.

A restricted Bandit 600 would be an excellent learner bike and be easy to get in your price range. Very similar to the hornet. Probably faster, and more comfortable to drive.

What age are you? Just for an idea insurance wise, it would be worth your while ringing up Carol Nash and Aon with several bikes (including your Hornet 250) so you know what you are getting yourself into.

L.

FX Meister

I'm 28. I prefer the look of the Hornet over the Bandit but I don't want to base my choice on looks alone. I don't think the speed issue with the bandit being faster would sway me as I'm not really looking for a really fast bike just yet. Are factory restricted bikes hard to come by? Is it easy enough to get the restrictions taken off when the time is right. What was your insurance like Noelie, and what is it like now? When you say just commuting I presume you mean to and from work? I already have a car and want the bike for both commuting and pleasure. I'm moving out to Lusk in the new year and I'm working in Dun Laoghaire until next summer at the least so I've a longish cummute to work.

MrPudding

FX Meister wrote:

Are factory restricted bikes hard to come by? Is it easy enough to get the restrictions taken off when the time is right.

My understanding is you would not remove the restriction. It requires an engine rebuild. I think once you are done with it you sell it and buy an unrestricted one.

MrP

Idleater

FX Meister wrote:

I'm 28. I prefer the look of the Hornet over the Bandit but I don't want to base my choice on looks alone.

TBH I think they look the exact same - well the Hornet and the Bandit.

FX Meister wrote:

I don't think the speed issue with the bandit being faster would sway me as I'm not really looking for a really fast bike just yet.

The Hornet is a faster bike than the Bandit.
The cbf600 is the slower one.

FX Meister wrote:

Are factory restricted bikes hard to come by? Is it easy enough to get the restrictions taken off when the time is right.

FR bikes are harder to come by, when I was getting my SV in July there were about 3 or 4 FR Bantits about.

My restriction is up about now, so in theory I could sell my FR SV650.

To derestrict a modern FR bike it is usually done in the ECU - so you can just buy a new one and send in the registration cert ammended with the full power specification. Then (I presume) you can just send in the form again if you want to sell as FR.

Basically, there is no "Paper" cert to say that x bike is FR. If you crash, they open up the bike, read the ECU serial no, and determine from that. For example my one is a Mitsubushi ECU that ends in *61, the full power ones end in *60. It is an open and shut case - you either have the correct ECU or you dont. That is why the insurance Companies give the discount.

FX Meister wrote:

What was your insurance like Noelie, and what is it like now? When you say just commuting I presume you mean to and from work? I already have a car and want the bike for both commuting and pleasure. I'm moving out to Lusk in the new year and I'm working in Dun Laoghaire until next summer at the least so I've a longish cummute to work.

My insurance is €1200 FC and €700 TPO with AON and a Silver RoSPA (29 years old).

For that commute, I would definitely consider a bigger bike - 600 ish because the little one will be screaming for most of the journey and basically wear itself out quicker.

Mr Pudding wrote:

My understanding is you would not remove the restriction. It requires an engine rebuild. I think once you are done with it you sell it and buy an unrestricted one.

The engine does not need to be rebuilt. If it is not ECU restricted, then there are literally washers in the Carbs that restrict the inlets. It chokes the engine. Personally, I think the ECU is a better more efficient way of restricting the bike.

L.

MrPudding

nereid wrote:

The engine does not need to be rebuilt. If it is not ECU restricted, then there are literally washers in the Carbs that restrict the inlets. It chokes the engine. Personally, I think the ECU is a better more efficient way of restricting the bike.

L.

The problem is that the insurance companies do not give discounts for bike restricted by ECU. They will insure a ECU restricted bike but they will treat it as full powered. Before I moved to England I was looking at an ECU restricted BMW 650GS. I phone Carol Nash & AON and both told me they would insure me no problem but it would be on the full rated power of the bike as it is too easy to remove an ECU restriction.

The ECU is a much easier way of restricting and eventually un-restricting a bike but, not much good if you are looking for a discount on the insurance.

MrP

Idleater

MrPudding wrote:

The problem is that the insurance companies do not give discounts for bike restricted by ECU. They will insure a ECU restricted bike but they will treat it as full powered. Before I moved to England I was looking at an ECU restricted BMW 650GS. I phone Carol Nash & AON and both told me they would insure me no problem but it would be on the full rated power of the bike as it is too easy to remove an ECU restriction.

The ECU is a much easier way of restricting and eventually un-restricting a bike but, not much good if you are looking for a discount on the insurance.

MrP

No, I think you have that backwards.

The ECU is a failsafe guarantee that the bike is restricted.

Like I said, all someone has to do is read the serial no off the ecu. No sticking it up on a dyno, no pieces of paper claiming that the job has been done - it either is a *61 or a *60.

With restricting the carbs, all that you have to do is open up the airbox and remove the 2 or 4 washers. Done. Full power. and you have to dyno it to proove that it is restricted.

I would be very surprised if you were told by an insurance company to ditch the ECU restriction for a washer in the carbs one.

The only time they will take restriction (ecu or other) is if it is factory restricted (like mine). If you want to drive a Falco or whatever, then you legally must restrict it for your licence, but insurance wise, they will not accept that restriction unless it is Factory - which it isn't so they charge you full price. Tis only right really.

L.

MrPudding

nereid wrote:

I would be very surprised if you were told by an insurance company to ditch the ECU restriction for a washer in the carbs one.

I wasn't told by an insurance company, I was told by two of them. Perhaps this is a case of reps not knowing what they are talking about?

nereid wrote:

The only time they will take restriction (ecu or other) is if it is factory restricted (like mine). If you want to drive a Falco or whatever, then you legally must restrict it for your licence, but insurance wise, they will not accept that restriction unless it is Factory - which it isn't so they charge you full price. Tis only right really.

L.

They specifically told me that if the bike was ECU restricted, even if the restriction happened at the factory, they would quote me as if the bike was full power. As far as they were concerned it is too easy to de-restrict an ECU restricted bike.

MrP

Idleater

MrPudding wrote:

As far as they were concerned it is too easy to de-restrict an ECU restricted bike.

Okay, fair enough.

I am not going to argue this point any more, but I would urge anyone reading this thread and thinking about buying a restricted (factory or otherwise) to ring the insurance companies in their country first for a quote on the exact make/model including the method of restriction to avoid any tears or claims of "I wus dun".

The only reason I am reluctant to believe you is because of reading about Factory Restricted and dealer Restricted SV650's on other forums (based in the UK) and they do agree with my interpretation about ECU restrictions.

L.

MrPudding

nereid wrote:

The only reason I am reluctant to believe you is because of reading about Factory Restricted and dealer Restricted SV650's on other forums (based in the UK) and they do agree with my interpretation about ECU restrictions.

L.

I hate to drag this on but I think it is imortant that FX has the correct info before he buys a bike.

First of all, I am terribly disappointed that you are reluctant to believe me, it makes me hurt inside.

Fighting through the pain I managed to call Carol Nash on t makes me hurt 1800 298 550 to ask them about Factory ECU restricted bikes and their policy towards them.

The answer was the same as it was the last time I called. They do not require anyone to restrict their bike and will not ask a person to do so. They do however understand that some riders, due to license restriction, may need to have their bikes restricted in order to comply with the law. He also said that even if the bike is restricted in the factory they treat it as full powered.

I actually called them back to check on the status of something like a factory restricted bandit and he told me they offer no discount for that either.
ou are still hav
So, to sum up. It seems that regardless of how the bike is restricted, ECU or blocked carbs, Carol Nash will NOT give a discount and the bike will be insured and quoted for as the full rated power.

If you are still having trouble believing me give them a call.

MrP

Idleater

MrPudding wrote:

I hate to drag this on but I think it is imortant that FX has the correct info before he buys a bike.

First of all, I am terribly disappointed that you are reluctant to believe me, it makes me hurt inside.

So, to sum up. It seems that regardless of how the bike is restricted, ECU or blocked carbs, Carol Nash will NOT give a discount and the bike will be insured and quoted for as the full rated power.

If you are still having trouble believing me give them a call.

MrP

Mr P.

I hold my hand up and apologise to you.

You are correct. I did have trouble believing you so I did ring CN and yes, the guy said that they do not give discount for FR or R bikes, they would be priced as normal.

The website for Aon is broken for me so I cant ring them to confirm with them, and it is AON who I have my policy with, and I DO get a FR discount - ie group 5 insurance with them.

So the message is clear. If you are getting insurance, ring all companies, and see what the quotes are for FR R and non R bikes.

The only thing that I will still disagree with you about is the method of restricting the bikes. Just because CN dont give the discount it is not because the ECU ones are easy to derristrict - it is because of their internal policy of loading provisional and inexperienced drivers.

They are correct. No matter what your age, if you are on a provosional or new licence then you are inexperienced and will do as much damage to yourself and others on a nsr125 as a restricted Falco.

It is the only point I will now willingly dispute with you further...

Apologies again. When I updated my policy last July the FR discount was still in effect, and I had no cause to think otherwise.

L.

velvitjester

''The ECU is a failsafe guarantee that the bike is restricted.

Like I said, all someone has to do is read the serial no off the ecu. No sticking it up on a dyno, no pieces of paper claiming that the job has been done - it either is a *61 or a *60''

So you can just buy a full powered ecu and put the sticker from your restricted one on it.No most fr bikes are restricted in the engine as anything else is piss to remove.the ecu could be done in 10 mins with the sticker from the old one so its the complete oppisite off failsafe.

Idleater

velvitjester wrote:

So you can just buy a full powered ecu and put the sticker from your restricted one on it.

No most fr bikes are restricted in the engine as anything else is piss to remove.

the ecu could be done in 10 mins with the sticker from the old one so its the complete oppisite off failsafe.

Erm No. You have no clue have you, of how these things work?

Of course you can remove the Serial No - but that is the exact same as saying you will remove the serial no on your bike frame. It is NOT a sticker. And doing so would be far more illegal than simply driving an unrestricted bike while you are meant to be restricted. In the first case you are conciously defrauding the company, in the second you are driving a vehicle which you do not have the correct category licence for.

Tell me how "most" FR bikes are restricted in the engine?

If you crash and the bike gets impounded, which it will until the accident investigators have finished with it, they will remove the ECU and LOOK at it. They can tell if it is a 60 or a 61. Restricted or Not. Simple.

How can you prove that the washers in the carbs weren't lost at the side of the road? Or even whether or not the washers were even in place at the time of the accident. You cant.

Oh, and for the record, Mr P, AON DO take Factory Restriction into account, and they DO take ECU restriction into account. My bike is a Group 5, the normal SV is Group 11.

If CN say they won't give a discount, just go to AON simple as.


L.

murphaph

Ok, we're now wandering between insurance requirements and licencing requirments and they aren't necessarilly the same. I've said it before and I'll say it again-the law on bike licencing is full of holes it's so badly written. The restriction allows vehicles with a P/W ratio of <0.16kW/kg, so many bikes over the 25kW qualify and of course, the type of 'weight' was never defined in law, dry, kerb or laden? If one choses laden then you can claim you were carying some lead or bullion in your top-box the day you were stopped! It's a nonsense of a law and the proof is in the eating-never tested before a judge because the DPP lawyers (and consequently the Gardai) know well enough that they would never secure a conviction on such tenuous 'legislation'. If you don't believe how rubbish it is, look it up on statutebook.ie and then find the UK equivalent legislation. For a start, it's much much longer and covers all the angles, something we were supposed to do here to comply with the 2nd driving licence directive but were to inept to do. I don't just talk the talk, my bike is unrestricted and my licence isn't (yet). I've even been stopped by the guards and had my licence inspected, not a word said despite the bike obvioulsy being over 25kW. They know they can do nothing about it. Even people sitting driving tests have done so on bikes over 25kW, no questions asked!

MrPudding

nereid wrote:

Oh, and for the record, Mr P, AON DO take Factory Restriction into account, and they DO take ECU restriction into account. My bike is a Group 5, the normal SV is Group 11.

If CN say they won't give a discount, just go to AON simple as.


L.

That is fair enough. The person I spoke to told me they didn't. I do not doubt you, by the way. I was just going by what I was told.

It doesn't matter to me anyhow. I did direct access in the UK so I can get what ever I want. I think the insurance is OK. ZZR600 (don't know what group that is, I didn't check), license held for 2 months, 0 no claims. £550 fully comp with european breakdown and legal cover.

MrP

Idleater

MrPudding wrote:

It doesn't matter to me anyhow. I did direct access in the UK so I can get what ever I want.

It doesnt matter to me either. Licence is unrestricted in 3 weeks.

DA is a moot point. That is like me asking a Parisian why they didn't open up a SSIA.

L.

Hotblack Desiato

nereid wrote:

Tell me how "most" FR bikes are restricted in the engine?

Any or all of the following:

- Smaller carb tops to prevent throttles opening fully.
- Washers/ small diameter pipes welded inside the exhaust headers in difficult to remove places.
- Different camshafts to cut high rev power.

Few manufacturers rely entirely on ECU restriction - it's far too easily swapped over.

If you crash and the bike gets impounded, which it will until the accident investigators have finished with it, they will remove the ECU and LOOK at it. They can tell if it is a 60 or a 61. Restricted or Not. Simple.

LOL, in Ireland we don't have 'accident investigators', when I was knocked off by a car the Gardai didn't even ask to see my licence or insurance. Accident was 100% not my fault, but they still should have checked.
Makes you wonder if the old story about the drunk driver hopping into an ambulance to get away with it could still happen.

We do have insurance claims assesors, and having seen one of these guys in action, and having spoken to several friends who've had their damaged bikes inspected by these guys, they don't know one end of a bike from the other.

I had to point out every single fault with the bike to him, except bodywork.

The idea of these guys (a) knowing the restricted licence laws (b) knowing how to check if a bike is restricted (c) doing something about it is laughable.

How can you prove that the washers in the carbs weren't lost at the side of the road? Or even whether or not the washers were even in place at the time of the accident. You cant.

It's not up to you to prove anything.
If the insurance company can prove that you lied on your proposal form, or were not licensed on the vehicle in question, then fair enough, but the onus is on them to prove this, not you.

Idleater

ninja900 wrote:

Any or all of the following:

- Smaller carb tops to prevent throttles opening fully.
- Washers/ small diameter pipes welded inside the exhaust headers in difficult to remove places.
- Different camshafts to cut high rev power.

Few manufacturers rely entirely on ECU restriction - it's far too easily swapped over.

1) this is the "washers in the carbs" that I alluded to earlier.
2) This is usually done in combination with the (1) because of the whole input gas ~= output gas equation.
3) This is usually done en masse ie the CBF 600 engine is a detuned Hornet which is a detuned CBR. I don't think it is in the manufacturers interests to make a specific engine block for FR bikes.

What I mean by this is the market for FR bikes is quite small, and the price of the bikes is the same so I don't think that restricting by building an entire engine is quite realistic. For example if there are n CBF600f bikes sold in Europe, do you really think they will build x% of those with a complete different engine? No. I don't either. They just stick the washers in and the insurers are happy. They are not going through extra expense where they know the biker will just upgrade to a hornet within 2 years anyway. That is where they make their money.

The ECU and the washers in the carbs are the "known" allowable common restrictor methods that insurance companies in Europe know about. France for example does not allow bikes >~100hp they all are chipped to that limit. They don't rebuild engines. They just ECU them down.

Don't get me wrong, I think the system is a complete joke, and like I said I don't care because it doesn't affect me any more. I just see the difference between a FR and a normal bike (same bike) as a Win Win for the manufacturer at the minimum expense to them.

Sure do you think they care that an ECU can be swapped out to make the bike full power? No. They just charge you €500 to buy the full power one.

All I do is complete the reg form with 70hp instead of 33 and pay the extra insurance.

L.

Hotblack Desiato

nereid wrote:

1) this is the "washers in the carbs" that I alluded to earlier.

Nope, it's different. Washers go between the carb and engine and are almost always an aftermarket part (and much too easily removed to get insurance discount).

What I was talking about was a smaller carb top which stops the carb piston rising fully - probably combined with different carb jets and needle. To derestrict you'd have to get 4 new carb tops, main jets and needles (assuming a 4cyl) - not cheap!

2) This is usually done in combination with the (1) because of the whole input gas ~= output gas equation.

True, it's never used on its own. Effectively it's a half-blocked exhaust, which does cut power, but also fecks up the mixture, so will need fuelling changes to compensate.

I don't think it is in the manufacturers interests to make a specific engine block for FR bikes. What I mean by this is the market for FR bikes is quite small, and the price of the bikes is the same so I don't think that restricting by building an entire engine is quite realistic.

No they don't have to do that at all.
All they have to do is fit a different camshaft with less lift (i.e. valves don't open as far) and/or duration (time valves stay open.) Rest of motor is unchanged.

Of course having the power restricted can lead to other changes to save money, e.g. smaller throttle bodies/carbs as the full size ones aren't needed. I don't know if anyone fits cheaper brakes to FR bikes :eek: