Still confused about under-raising?

NickyOD

Prepare to get even more confused with this thread.

Many sites seem to have conflicting rules about underraising and I can't find any that explain the under raise rule on their site. The EPT under raise rule differes from the TDA rule so now everyone hasn't got a clue. Some under raise situations can be a little complex so this thread is an attempot to get some clarity on it.

Here's a hand I just played on Party Poker at 50/1. UTG mini raises to $2. Shorty calls. and I make it $10. UTG calls, and shoty goes goes all in for a total of $14. Note that my initial raise was $8 and his all in is $4 more so its an underraise. Should I be allowed to reraise here?

mdwexford

no

mormank

NO. shorty needs to go all in for at least 18 to reopen the betting to you. were you allowed to re raise?? if so i hope you didnt out of protest!!!

NickyOD

mormank wrote:

NO. shorty needs to go all in for at least 18 to reopen the betting to you. were you allowed to re raise?? if so i hope you didnt out of protest!!!

yes I was allowed to reraise. Someone tell me why? The figures aren't exactly as they were above but it is still an under raise.

***** Hand History for Game 5466397383 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 28, 00:07:17 ET 2006
Table Table 126959 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 6: cardtruth ( $167.41 )
Seat 4: NickyOD ( $84.31 )
Seat 5: ISIZZLE ( $174.22 )
Seat 3: Poko12345678 ( $16.55 )
Seat 2: Derways ( $64.07 )
Seat 1: Silohop ( $56.30 )
cardtruth posts small blind [$0.50].
Silohop posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NickyOD [ Qd Kh ]
Derways raises [$2]
Poko12345678 calls [$2]
NickyOD raises [$10]
ISIZZLE folds.
cardtruth folds.
Silohop folds.
Derways calls [$8]
Poko12345678 is all-In.
NickyOD is all-In.
Derways folds.

Earwig Eddie

this was fantastically exploitable on ladbrokes, i dunno if it still is. eg

ep raises to 4 and has 12 left
some callers
your in late pos with KK and reraise to 15
ep goes all in for 1 more
more callers
you shove trapping a wealth of dead money, and are loving it if you get called

5starpool

What the hell are you doing going all in with KQo for?

I am guessing for the underraise rule there is some percentage rule on Party at least, i.e. the all-in is more than 66% of a legal raise so the betting is reopened. It is stupid if this is the case, but I think you should email party support to find out.

NickyOD

5starpool wrote:

What the hell are you doing going all in with KQo for?

Because I'm probably racing or maybe even ahead with $11 dead money on the pot. Derways was never calling me.

Derways calls [$8]
Poko12345678 is all-In.
NickyOD is all-In.
Derways folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 5c, 9c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
NickyOD shows [ Qd, Kh ]a full house, Fives full of Queens.
Poko12345678 doesn't show [ 6d, 6s ]a full house, Fives full of Sixes.
NickyOD wins $42.40 from the main pot with a full house, Fives full of Queens.

NickyOD

Here's a hand example from Tribecca.

[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 1 : vndghs has $2,785
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 2 : colinhh has $8,720
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 3 : BOOGIELHC has $3,900
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 4 : yoyo_jigga has $23,830
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 5 : Court02 has $3,250
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 6 : gsf13 has $535
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 7 : Zispin! has $6,810
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 9 : PDee has $3,950
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : yoyo_jigga is the dealer.
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Court02 posted small blind.
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : gsf13 posted big blind.
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Game [62] started with 8 players.
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Nov 27 01:53:53] : Seat 7 : Zispin! has AhKs
[Nov 27 01:53:54] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Level up in: 7 min. Break in: 2 min. Players : 102
[Nov 27 01:53:56] : Zispin! called 200
[Nov 27 01:53:57] : PDee folded.
[Nov 27 01:53:59] : vndghs folded.
[Nov 27 01:54:07] : colinhh folded.
[Nov 27 01:54:08] : BOOGIELHC folded.
[Nov 27 01:54:14] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Level up in: 6 min. Break in: 2 min. Players : 102
[Nov 27 01:54:18] : yoyo_jigga called 200 and raised 300 Here's the raise after Zispin! has limped. Zispin should now be allowed to raise to 800 if its folded back to him. [Nov 27 01:54:18] : Court02 folded.
[Nov 27 01:54:23] : gsf13 called 300 and raised 35 and is All-in Here's the under raise. yoy_jigga can't reraise this but Zispin! should still be allowed to make it 800.
[Nov 27 01:54:23] : Under-Raise rules are now in effect.
[Nov 27 01:54:24] : Zispin! called 335 He couldn't reraise. even though yoyo_jigga reopened the betting for him
[Nov 27 01:54:28] : yoyo_jigga called 35

This is the rule explained on thePaddy Power website.

"Under-raise: This occurs when a player raises a prior bet but has to go all-in to do so. If the player under-raising à going all-in to raise à has less than ¢ of the expected raise for that betting round, the betting round is locked. The term locked here means that any player who has already acted in the round (checked, called, or raised) may no longer raise. They may only call or fold. However, players who have yet to act (betting has not reached them yet) may raise the expected raise for that betting round, after calling. If the under-raise is ¢ or more than the expected raise, the lock rule does not apply."

http://www.paddypowerpoker.com/poker-academy/poker-jargon.php

From the TDA rules...."38. In no-limit and pot limit, less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who already has acted."

The 2 rules look the same but thet TDA one is very vague. The key word in the TDA rule and this is where I have been confused in the passed is "reopen" So In the example aboe since yoy_jigga had already reopened the betting for Zispin then Zispin should be allowed to reraise his bet.

Tribecca seemed to have taken the TDA rule, tried to explain it more clearly but misinterpreted it and applied it incorrectly. I don't blame them though. I know one tournament director who made the same assumption and that's where my own confusion came from.

Anyone ever see the Tribecca under raise rule applied in a live game?

ArmaniJeanss

I'm convinced I have a Tribeca HH at home where I'm in the ZisPin situation and was allowed to re-raise. I saved it off about 2 weeks after we last had this debate because it appeared to contradict what a few people had said on the earlier thread, but never got round to posting it.
I'll check for it when I get home.

NickyOD

I sent Party an email about that hand.

"Thank you for contacting us.

Under brick and mortar poker rules, you are right, your options should have only been, call or fold.

However, we have escalated this issue to our poker room manager for clarification. Please allow us some time to look into this issue and provide a response."

ArmaniJeanss

Had a look at the Tribeca hand that I saved. The action is a little bit different but I think it might pinpoint a bug on Tribeca.

The blinds are 20/40 and theres 480 in the pot at the flop. I'm first to act, and check, 2nd to act goes all-in 20 chips (which will 'lock' the hand for me).
Next player calls, next player raises to 160.

Action is now back on me, and I have all options open (fold, call, raise).

The difference....
Zispins hand has gone check,raise,lockbet whereas my hand has gone check,lockbet,raise.

So the bug (if it is a bug as opposed to correct implementation of the rule) in a programming sense is that the 'Locked' Boolean is always getting set when someone underraises, even if a previous action should override it. It can only be cleared by someone who is yet to act.


***
I have a screenshot as opposed to a HH, and its just over 500KB and boards wont allow to load for size reasons.

bohsman

No, its not a bug, the player that makes it 160 reopens the betting. Strictly speaking the 20 bet should open the betting anyway - anyone that wants to call has to call for 40.

ArmaniJeanss

bohsman wrote:

No, its not a bug, the player that makes it 160 reopens the betting. Strictly speaking the 20 bet should open the betting anyway - anyone that wants to call has to call for 40.

Bohsman,
By 'a bug' I meant what had happened in the Zispin hand that Nicky posted. It looks like a bug to me, and its the order of events which is causing it (i think).

bohsman

True, I could never figure it out while playing blind omaha, it never seemed to make sense that peole couldnt get another raise in. Besides this

yoyo_jigga called 200 and raised 300

is certainly not allowed, someones been watching too much poker in films.

fixer

bohsman wrote:

True, I could never figure it out while playing blind omaha, it never seemed to make sense that peole couldnt get another raise in. Besides this

yoyo_jigga called 200 and raised 300

is certainly not allowed, someones been watching too much poker in films.

What's wrong with "making it 500" if the big blind is 200? Or are you bein snarky on the "call and raise" terminology?

NickyOD

Ok her is another situation.

Player A First to act limps for 200.
Player B goes all in for 250. This is an underraise.
Player C then makes it 600.
When the action folds back to Player A does he have all his options?

cooker3

NickyOD wrote:

Ok her is another situation.

Player A First to act limps for 200.
Player B goes all in for 250. This is an underraise.
Player C then makes it 600.
When the action folds back to Player A does he have all his options?

Yes I would say Player A has all the options open to him because Player C re-opened the betting.

ArmaniJeanss

Going by the way that I think it works on Tribeca, then yes, in your example Player A will have all his options.

But if it had gone Player A limps for 200, Player B raises to 600, Player C underraises all-in to 650, then the 'bug'* kicks in and Player A can only call/fold.



* I'm saying 'bug' but depending on which way you read the rules maybe its not ??? I can't believe that its what the originator of the rule intended though.

5starpool

it's arseways