Whats the deal with Barney Curley?

Pighead

Just wondering about this Barney Curley character and why he seems to be so popular.

Was in the bookies today and there was a race where Curley had a horse entered, the SIS announcer mentioned that he had a horse running and everyone started to nod and wink to each other and gave each other knowing laughs and as far as I could see a lot backed his horse.(I laughed along too, but to be honest it was a completely fake laugh as I didn't really know what the hell was going on)

Is he renowned for pulling strokes, or was he a legend trainer back in the day. Admittedly my knowledge regarding horse racing is limited but as far as I can remember he hasn't trained any horse of note in my lifetime. Anyway just wondering could anybody enlighten me with regards to Mr Curley.

fade2black

A little history on the guy Pighead....his father was an "avid" gambler and once spent all the family's money backing this particular greyhound. The dog broke its neck on the track and the family lost all their money. Barney says that the image of his father walking out onto the track and picking up the dead dog will never leave him. They say he vowed revenge on the bookies from that day.

In 1975 Barney set his eye upon Bellewstown in Meath (where else!) for a little betting coup, the reason being that the betting ring at that track at the time was only serviced by one telephone. He campaigned a horse called yellow sam over inappropriate conditions to drive down the form, and drive up the price of his horse. Meanwhile he had 20 or more runners all over Ireland in bookies waiting to hear the name of the horse. About 10 minutes before the race they were all informed and they began to bet on the horse. Alarm bells ran out in the bookies so they tried to ring the course to get the price reduced. However, Barney's mate was holding up the call, pretending to be talking to a hospital where his sick auntie was critical. The bookies were never informed and the horse was allowed to run, and win in his optimum conditions, at 20-1.

That was neither the first, nor last battle that Barney had with the bookies.

Which reminds me...I must get his auto biography soon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Giving-Little-Back-Barney-Curley/dp/0002188287

Healio

fade2black wrote:

.............................................................................................................Bellewstown in Galway......................................................

:eek: Surely that is Bellewstown in Meath

fade2black

Haha, of course...dunno why Ballybrit came into my head there. All apologies!!

Pighead

Ha Ha, very good. Had a feeling he was a bit of a rascal alright. Has he ever trained any top class horses?
Thanks for both the info and for deciding my dads Christmas present.

fade2black

Not really Pighead. He never really has many horses in training at any one time. I'd be surprised if there were more than 10-15. He has been a Protégé to many jockeys such as Detorri and Spencer and was also in negotiations to buy Sunderland earlier this year.

He does loads of charity work in Africa as well I believe.

Morgans

never had any horses of any use, and he has pulled off some serious gambles in galway over the past decade. He registerd horses under hte name of his assistant trainer N.Moran on one occasion. In general, it is best to leave them win rather than get involved in the gamble, as anytime there is any smell of money for hte horse, the bookies cut the price disproportionally because of the trainer. They are rarely value.

He had a famous bet with Ladbrokes that he could trian 13 winners before Christmas one season. He managed it. Also sold his house by lottery/raffle I think.

A gangster.

emmemm

shrewd genius more like.

fade2black

I personally wouldn't call him shrewd or a gangster...but you know the way we root for Michael Corleone in the Godfather...well it's kinda like that to me....(Wait...I suppose I am calling him a gangster)

Pighead

Hmmm he does look kinda shifty alright. Don't know why, but I had him down as more loveable and rogueish looking. Something like Claude Greengrass in Heartbeat.

http://www.channel4.com/sport/microsites/R/racing/media/features/barney.curley.150x150.jpg

Morgans

The best moment of BArney Curley's career was when he confronted Matt Chapman on ATR (about 3 years ago) stating that he was a failed gambler who owed money to everyone. Chapman was basically calling him a gangster on air, that his horses were trying, and he tore Chapman a new one. "You'll be hearing from my laywers" was one of Chapman's comments. magic television. Maybe that is why there were smirks and giggles in the ATR studio. Didnt catch it myself today.

fade2black

He laid into Luke Harvey something rotton that day too, great telly.

masterK

The thing that really gets to me about people like Barney Curley is the romantic notion people hold for them, especially the media. They're portrayed as geniuses for pulling off these master strokes when at the end of the day all they are doing is cheating. How hard is it to ensure a horse doesn't run to it's ability several times until they drop to a nice handicap mark and then have a gamble on it.

As has already been alluded to from a betting perspective you would be foolish in the long term to become involved, most of Curleys horses are in fact donkeys and not well handicapped horses that he's trying to pull a stroke on.

The same has happened with Mark Prescotts runners in the last year, he has horses who haven't any form at all going into handicaps and going off 2/1 favourite when they should be 20/1 shots, he has a few on false handicap marks as we all know but most of them just aren't that good, yet every time he has a horse in a handicap for the first time people lump onto them.

steveymp@hotmai

Bloody great story lads, you'r man seem to be what we call up North a "Character" seem like a real lovable rogue character too at that:D The book looks like it would be a good read too

emmemm

masterk says:
The same has happened with Mark Prescotts runners in the last year, he has horses who haven't any form at all going into handicaps and going off 2/1 favourite when they should be 20/1 shots, he has a few on false handicap marks as we all know but most of them just aren't that good, yet every time he has a horse in a handicap for the first time people lump onto them.

If that is true are you laying these on betfair?
Any stats?

Bluetonic

Barney was guest of honour on the Wednesday night of the 2005 Bellewstown races to mark the 30th anniversary of the Yellow Sam win, he gave a great interview on the evening from the parade ring, and to be honest it appeared like some sort of hero's homecoming up on the hill.

scojones

masterK wrote:

The thing that really gets to me about people like Barney Curley is the romantic notion people hold for them, especially the media. They're portrayed as geniuses for pulling off these master strokes when at the end of the day all they are doing is cheating. How hard is it to ensure a horse doesn't run to it's ability several times until they drop to a nice handicap mark and then have a gamble on it.

That's a fair point, but I have to ask you if you had inside information such as the above, on a race, would you turn around and not back it because you would be 'cheating'?
At the end of the day when you're reading form are you not looking for horses that are ahead of the handicapper?

finbarrk

You should try to get his book Pighead, its a good read, as far as I remember its called 'Giving a little back'.

fade2black

finbarrk wrote:

You should try to get his book Pighead, its a good read, as far as I remember its called 'Giving a little back'.

Which if you've read the whole thread you would see has already been mentioned....Finbarrk:rolleyes:

Colonel Sanders

finbarrk wrote:

You should try to get his book Pighead, its a good read, as far as I remember its called 'Giving a little back'.

Very good read but out of print, i picked it up on ebay as any copies I found for sale elsewhere were very expensive.

masterK

sjones wrote:

That's a fair point, but I have to ask you if you had inside information such as the above, on a race, would you turn around and not back it because you would be 'cheating'?
At the end of the day when you're reading form are you not looking for horses that are ahead of the handicapper?

That's my point, how do you know they are ahead of the handicapper. As an example if the form book shows a trainer has 2 horses that were both last in their only 3 runs, yet one wasn't trying and has plenty of ability and the other was trying but is just a very poor horse, how is the punter or form student accessing this form supposed to know which horse is the well handicapped horse with ability and which is the poor animal?

scojones

masterK wrote:

That's my point, how do you know they are ahead of the handicapper. As an example if the form book shows a trainer has 2 horses that were both last in their only 3 runs, yet one wasn't trying and has plenty of ability and the other was trying but is just a very poor horse, how is the punter or form student accessing this form supposed to know which horse is the well handicapped horse with ability and which is the poor animal?

Good point. Just reading form is not enough in these instances, sometimes you have to watch the race to actually see if a horse is trying or not. I'm very cynical of the racing in Tralee and will never back a horse who is running there because the track is renouned for local trainers doing what Barney Curley did. I've already posted one such example on here a long time ago, where the jockeys let a lady jockey win the race on a long shot because it was her birthday and she had never won a race. I backed it, and was happy with the money in my pocket but decided not to bet down there again. If I get this info, as a punter I am happy with the outcome. As a racing fanatic I am unhappy that this sort of carry on exists but there is not much we can do about it. All we can do is take note of people who do it and avoid races where there is a risk of this happening.

WhatsGoingOn

Speaking of dodgy bets....
Anyone back Thenford Star in the 1:40?
Was forecast at 66/1 on sporing life this morning, backed all the way into 9/4 fav. Won by 3L.

fade2black

F/c to be 8-1 in the Racing Post. Someone needs to do their homework in the Sporting Life or more likely, it was an error.

masterK

I really can't understand how anybody plays the slightest bit of notice to the Sporting Life's forecast prices, they are totally unreliable, much the same as most of the newspapers. The only even partially reliable Forecast price is the Racing Post.

careca

Curley had a horse in training in England and went to the phonebox (no mobiles or house phone) to ring the trainer about his chances. Trainer told him horse would not be beaten and to have as much on as possible. When he went to back the horse the following morning the price had already come in and he couldn't understand it as the trainer swore only Curley knew about it. Then he copped that the operator (eircom phone) had been listening to the conversation and had told all his mates about it. The horse won and when he went to the pub that night all the boys were hammered on their winnings.

So to get him back, he rang from the same phone the following week and had told the trainer to tell him another horse wouldn't be beaten the following day. Course yer man was listening again and plunged on with all his mates. Horse beaten out of sight. LOL.

Colonel Sanders

masterK wrote:

I really can't understand how anybody plays the slightest bit of notice to the Sporting Life's forecast prices, they are totally unreliable, much the same as most of the newspapers. The only even partially reliable Forecast price is the Racing Post.

Very true, the racing post is a somewhat reliable guide but sporting life is a joke.

BobbyD10

masterK wrote:

The same has happened with Mark Prescotts runners in the last year, he has horses who haven't any form at all going into handicaps and going off 2/1 favourite when they should be 20/1 shots, he has a few on false handicap marks as we all know but most of them just aren't that good, yet every time he has a horse in a handicap for the first time people lump onto them.

Agree. I have noticed he tends to run them over shorter distances say 5,6f for their first three runs then ups them to 1m+ in handicaps. And indeed the prices are extremely short and no value at all.

snookerman

Barney Curley is a legend.

He owns his horses and trains them himself and therefor can do what he likes with them.
Of course once he wins and makes money by betting them the bookmakers chicken out of taking his bets...he is smarter than the bookmakers and the bookmakers have made him a multi millionaire..not too many people you can say that about, as the lesser people that make money from this game get limited bets taken of them from the chicken bookmakers..of course the people that lose all the time the bookies dont mind taking bets from them all day and all night.

Thats why bookies cant lose, not only do they cheat on the odds ( for example in all 2 runner sporting events when they create a handicap most of the time both selections are odds on!!!!!!!!! odds totally in favour of bookmakers)
They also ban all people that win to them, so they are left with punters that lose day in and day, out making them much richer.
The minute you start to win they ban you.

Go on barney keep getting em!

Robin1982

snookerman wrote:

...
Thats why bookies cant lose, not only do they cheat on the odds ( for example in all 2 runner sporting events when they create a handicap most of the time both selections are odds on!!!!!!!!! odds totally in favour of bookmakers)...

If they weren't, then there wouldn't be much point in being a bookmaker.

Nobody is forced is bet for betting's sake.

snookerman

Robin,

So im glad you agree the bookmakers rip punters off.

I know the odds has to be in their favour for them to cover costs but
they rip punters off...an example of this is take any sporting event
when there are only two possible outcomes...sometimes the bookmakers bet

Selection a) 2/7
Selection b) 9/4

That is a joke...the odds are totally in their favour..this means when a punter bets selection A @2/7 to the bookmaker, the bookmaker is infact backing selection B @7/2..and when another punter bets selection B to the bookmaker it means the bookmaker is betting selection A @4/9.

So when all is said and done the bookmaker is betting on a 2 runner race with odds of 4/9 and 7/2...( THEY ARE BETTING AT THOSE ODDS, NOT TAKING BETS)

The punter is betting in the same 2 runner race with odds of 2/7 and 9/4..

Is that not daylight robbery?
How can bookmakers lose, giving punters such unfair odds?

Healio

snookerman wrote:

Robin,

So im glad you agree the bookmakers rip punters off.

I know the odds has to be in their favour for them to cover costs but
they rip punters off...an example of this is take any sporting event
when there are only two possible outcomes...sometimes the bookmakers bet

Selection a) 2/7
Selection b) 9/4

That is a joke...the odds are totally in their favour..this means when a punter bets selection A @2/7 to the bookmaker, the bookmaker is infact backing selection B @7/2..and when another punter bets selection B to the bookmaker it means the bookmaker is betting selection A @4/9.

So when all is said and done the bookmaker is betting on a 2 runner race with odds of 4/9 and 7/2...( THEY ARE BETTING AT THOSE ODDS, NOT TAKING BETS)

The punter is betting in the same 2 runner race with odds of 2/7 and 9/4..

Is that not daylight robbery?
How can bookmakers lose, giving punters such unfair odds?

Well if that is the case, why dont you shut the **** up and not bet??

Healio

snookerman wrote:

Barney Curley is a legend.

He owns his horses and trains them himself and therefor can do what he likes with them.

Cant argue with that.

snookerman wrote:

Of course once he wins and makes money by betting them the bookmakers chicken out of taking his bets...he is smarter than the bookmakers and the bookmakers have made him a multi millionaire..not too many people you can say that about, as the lesser people that make money from this game get limited bets taken of them from the chicken bookmakers

Yeah i seem to remember Mr. Curley is the only Trainer with a 100% strike rate. Yeah the chicken bookmakers (who according to you made him his millions) won't take his bets.

snookerman wrote:

..of course the people that lose all the time the bookies dont mind taking bets from them all day and all night.

and why should they, the bookies havent said come on in and throw your money away on pre-determined cartoon racing.

snookerman wrote:

Thats why bookies cant lose, not only do they cheat on the odds ( for example in all 2 runner sporting events when they create a handicap most of the time both selections are odds on!!!!!!!!! odds totally in favour of bookmakers)

Again, you would want to learn how the markets work buddy.

snookerman wrote:

They also ban all people that win to them, so they are left with punters that lose day in and day, out making them much richer.
The minute you start to win they ban you.

You have it in a nut-shell, anyone who wins a measly fiver is immediatelly banned. How did you know?? Some people do win big money here and there. When that regularly happens, then their stakes may get limited i.e. they are not banned, because mainly good punters barely break-even. Put yourself in the bookies shoes - some guy comes in once a week we'll say, and everybet he does is a winner, are you telling me you would take the same amount of money day-in-day-out on this lads selections?? Get real, you will cop it very soon he is either very lucky or in the know, but regardless, you are not going to let yourself lose your bollox everyday, you will reduce the amount you want to take, or he can go elsewhere, which will never happen.

snookerman wrote:

Go on barney keep getting em!

I hope he does keep getting 'em, it will keep punters interested.

snookerman wrote:

Robin,

So im glad you agree the bookmakers rip punters off.

I know the odds has to be in their favour for them to cover costs but
they rip punters off...an example of this is take any sporting event
when there are only two possible outcomes...sometimes the bookmakers bet

Selection a) 2/7
Selection b) 9/4

Are you seriously spouting that tripe??
2/7 and 9/4 has an over-round of 108%.
That is a very good market for the punter considering it is a 2-runner market.

snookerman wrote:

That is a joke...the odds are totally in their favour..this means when a punter bets selection A @2/7 to the bookmaker, the bookmaker is infact backing selection B @7/2..and when another punter bets selection B to the bookmaker it means the bookmaker is betting selection A @4/9.

Sorry mate come back when you actually have a clue what your talking about.

snookerman wrote:

So when all is said and done the bookmaker is betting on a 2 runner race with odds of 4/9 and 7/2...( THEY ARE BETTING AT THOSE ODDS, NOT TAKING BETS)

The punter is betting in the same 2 runner race with odds of 2/7 and 9/4..

Is that not daylight robbery?
How can bookmakers lose, giving punters such unfair odds?

Yeah daylight robbery, betting to 108% on a 2-runner market, oh sorry you dont actually understand what that means???

snookerman wrote:

How could they possibly lose?

Well maybe one side of the market is very heavily punted, and then (oh my god!!) the result actually comes up!!! That in my eyes would be a loser for the bookie. Your posts remind me of the sensationalist bull-**** that dominates the front pages of the tabloids.

emmemm

Healio must be a bookie or married to one.
Bookies are for mugs.Full stop.
Used to surf looking for value at odds comparison sites but always ended up on betfair.Even with commission 90-99% of time better value there.
Only use for bookies is for availing of the free introductory bet.Use it, preferably by hedging on betfair, then close account.

snookerman

Emmeem,

Yeah id say you are right, its one or the other with him/her.
Its only a matter of time before everyone uses the exchanges
where you get very very fair odds, and when you win you dont get barred.

Healio,

I was not talking to you and do not appreciate you cursing and attacking me
on this forum.
I am stating my opinion on what i think of bookmakers and how much of crooks they are ( most of them).
If you dont like it fair enough, but do not curse at me.

I know for a fact that some bookmakers that stood to lose a lot of money
on horses winning, made sure the horse in question would not win, one way or another and still took even more money on the horse knowing full well this horse
would not be winning( this has happend many many a time)

I think my facts i have pointed out in my last post say enough and i do not need to say anymore on that topic, its all fact and truth and shows how bookmakers treat punters like crap and take them for rides, that what has set you off, as its the truth and it looks so bad on writing..( ever heard of the truth hurts!?)
Also decent bookmakers( if there is such a thing) would not close
down or limit winning punters...they would take the bets and lay them off
and then lower the odds of the horse in question.
Any punter that bets with decent money knows all what bookmakers are about and what they are like.

Good luck to you and i will not lower myself to your standards of F this and F that.
If you cant handle someone stating the facts and the truth then maybe you should not be on here.

snookerman

Another quick point, if you think in a 2 runner race the prices of

2/7 and 9/4 are very fair then that sums everything ive been saying up just in that alone.

If it was an exchange you would be getting 4/11 and 11/4
That is what i call very fair, infact you cannot get fairer than that.

So please stop trying to argue about those odds of 2/7 and 9/4 being very fair, they are just pure and utter cheating odds, with the odds totally in the bookmakers favour...no one in the world with a brain cell can argue that.

Crumbs

I was in Tesco today and bought a Mars Bar for 75c but I heard that they get them from their supplier at 65c each.

bookiebasher

crumbs thats a disgrace .... tesco's making 10 c on every mars bar they sell..

I would love if snookerman was in the car business as he hates to see people being ripped off...I could buy a new car off him at cost seeing as he does not agree with any company having a margin

Morgans

snookerman wrote:

Another quick point, if you think in a 2 runner race the prices of

2/7 and 9/4 are very fair then that sums everything ive been saying up just in that alone.

If it was an exchange you would be getting 4/11 and 11/4
That is what i call very fair, infact you cannot get fairer than that

Actually, if you want to get a decent bet on an exchange the odds would be 4/11(-5% of any winnings) and 11/4(-5% of any winnings)

If people think they are not being ripped off by exchanges, then God help us all.

wb

I hate these 'bookies are B*stards' arguments. Of course they have an overround, I don't see why anyone is shocked. They provide a very good service to us all, and no one is forced to bet. I mainly use the exchanges online, but still use the bookies now and again. Do people expect them to do it for free? Do they want a 100% book? Why would anyone become a book maker so?

They're not the feckin' Vincent De Paul you know.

Healio

snookerman wrote:

I was not talking to you and do not appreciate you cursing and attacking me
on this forum.
I am stating my opinion on what i think of bookmakers and how much of crooks they are ( most of them).
If you dont like it fair enough, but do not curse at me.

In that case i apologise for the language. And yes you are entitled to your opinion, how ever ill-informed it is.

snookerman wrote:

I know for a fact that some bookmakers that stood to lose a lot of money
on horses winning, made sure the horse in question would not win, one way or another and still took even more money on the horse knowing full well this horse
would not be winning( this has happend many many a time)

I'm sure that happens on betfair more often then your local bookies.

snookerman wrote:

I think my facts i have pointed out in my last post say enough and i do not need to say anymore on that topic, its all fact and truth and shows how bookmakers treat punters like crap and take them for rides, that what has set you off, as its the truth and it looks so bad on writing..( ever heard of the truth hurts!?)

snookerman wrote:

If you cant handle someone stating the facts and the truth then maybe you should not be on here.

Yes the truth and the facts from a man who has no experience of bookmaking.

knighted

think ur banging ur head against a brick wall healio-would it be an idea to create a sticky thread showing people how to work out the over round

kincsem

Crumbs wrote:

I was in Tesco today and bought a Mars Bar for 75c but I heard that they get them from their supplier at 65c each.

Feckin capitalists. I believe they do it on Twirls as well. When did this start?

TOm Kelly

GREAT IDEA knighted - I cannot think of a single topic for a sticky that would be more beneficial for punters than an explaination of over rounds and how to calculate them ...

I would guess, if you take ALL punters, that 99% of them would not have a clue ... even people betting for forty years ... this is the best idea I have heard on this forum - can anybody take it on ... I have to admit that I am very sketchy on it myself.

Healio

At the risk of sounding patronising, google can help you.

I found this one to be the best explained example


Or this one

TOm Kelly

Thanks Healio - that's not patronising at all - in fact it is the type of links that could be included in an Over Round sticky thread - it would be accessible to everybody and newbiees or others could ask questions / discuss etc. I think it would be a good resource for the board.