How good are the All Blacks?

Webbs

After watching the demolition of Wales preceded by similar against France, I think it was a privilege to watch what may go down as the greatest rugby team ever (we need to see what happens in the next 9 months or so).

Their combination of power, skill, intelligence on the pitch was incredible. They had an almost sixth sense as to when to leave a ruck alone or when to smash it and gain turnover ball.

There isn't a team at the moment that comes within a country mile of their defence and utter ruthlessness in finishing off turnover. Not sure of the stats but during the autumn how many of NZ tries came off turnover ball, I'm guessing at the majority.

As a welshman and humbled by the weekend, how do you feel Ireland would have done this autumn against the all blacks (and please try not to be too one-eyed )

thirdmantackle

The way the All Blacks are playing we'd get hockeyed too.

our best hope for the WC is to beat France and the Argies and avoid meeting the All Blacks in the quarter final

hope that France, the Aussies or SA ambush them in the semi finals

daveirl

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crybaby

we should have beaten them in one test during the summer, one point ahead 9 minutes to go and Stringer tries a chip kick from our own 22 and bang NZ take control

if we can be ruthless, cut out those silly mistakes and chip away at their lineout we can defintley beat them, they are up on a pedestal at the moment and you never know what might happen to them if they are put under some serious pressure

ROVER

World Rankings should be:
1st All Blacks
2nd All Blacks reserve

thebaz

There good - the best team i haver seen !

On BBC yesterday they showed a classic rugby league match between New Zealand and Australia , the fittness and tacking was unreal, but the footballing skills were inferior to current Ireland or New Zealand rugby union teams.

MarVeL

If we were playing them this weekend at Lansdowne (now that would have been a send off for the ould place) we would have a chance. With both teams playing at their best I think they would have taken us by less than 10 points

daveirl

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Trojan

Lads, get realistic, or we never will beat them because of The Mayo Effect(c). The All Blacks are human. They are mortal, they are beatable, and they are capable of having a bad day just like anyone else.

The margin of error is tighter against them than anyone else - that's all.

Chucky the tree

we'd lose.

Hippo

We've been here before with supposedly unbelievably brilliant All Blacks teams who fall short at the final hurdle. This is potentially a great team alright, and at the moment they seem to be ahead of everyone. But to put it in perspective, they haven't beaten anything too special recently; France and England are in a real hole, and after what we did to Australia, you'd have to say the tri-nations isn't exactly fantastic at the mo. I was also delighted to see the very ordinary Piri Weepu come on for Kelleher against Wales and play....very ordinarily. It just goes to show they don't have deep cover for every position.
Best team around? Yes, at the moment, although of course they didn't play us this month , but there's a long way to go....

thirdmantackle

I can understand why the IRFU didn't have a match vs the All Blacks this Autumn due to playing them during the summer and possibly facing them in the World Cup

But why, oh why are the Irish team going on tour to Argentina next summer before we play them in the WC?

Never, ever give the ball away against the All Blacks. They only ever commit two men to the breakdown so always have extra players for defence. Munster maul is the only way to beat the feckers

Webbs

That was my thoughts exactly this team needs to win the world cup to be called a great team, and yep they don't have a great No 9 as back up, but behind that pack all you need is a decent pack. They still have the best depth of squad than anyone in the world.
I thought Wales picked a strange combination in midfield and kicked so badly that NZ had all the momentum they wanted right from the off, and one thing you won't do is win a game of catch up.
A more balanced no10 and midfield (like Irelands and potentially Wales if either hook or henson had been picked at IC) would put the ball in pressure positions for NZ and then it would be game on (fingers crossed)

kevmy

It's possible we'd beat them. We would need to give away very little penalties or scrums in our 22. I think we have a pack to match them in purely physical terms and better in the line out (as long as Frankie Sheehan isn't hooker). They'd take us in the scrum without doubt but you can give away very little scrums to solve that problem.
Where they really excel IMO is at the breakdown thought they were fantastic here against Wales. Not just the back row but all the forwards got in and done there bit. The also listen to the ref and (usually) stop just before infringing.
Apart from Carter I don't think they haven't got any thing we haven't seen before in the back line. I always maintain that great backs are rendered useless by poor forwards. While the Kiwis forwards are far from useless if we done a little better than even against them in terms of possesion upfront we could take them (provided we play for the 80 mins unlike the summer)

il gatto

The confidence (and arrogance) of the All Blacks is one of the biggest aspects of their game. Especially against Northern Hemispere teams (I know, Munster:) ). European teams have never really gotten to grips with them (occasionally, but not long term). They know this and they thrive on it. Look at this years Tri Nations. They lost to Australia and South Africa, both ordinary at the moment, and they come here and wallop all comers. No matter how confident teams are, or at least how confident they say they are, there's always a defeatist attitude at the back of their minds. People need to stop subscribing to the All Black myth that the media loves to play on. You can never compete until you start looking at them as mortals. Bloody brilliant mortals though.
That, and the sheer illegality of their play. Offside, hands in the ruck, collapsing mauls. FFS. Why can't they be treated fairly by refs (like in the Wales match). Might go a long way to levelling the playing field.

daveirl

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davyjose

Webbs wrote:

how do you feel Ireland would have done this autumn against the all blacks (and please try not to be too one-eyed )

Honest opinion? I don't think there is a Rugby team in the history of the game would have beaten us two Sundays ago in the wind and rain of Lansdowne Rd. Would the All Black's have beaten Australia with such finesse under those conditions? Maybe, but they wouldn't have beaten us.
And it's worth considering that up until one mistake by Stringer, chasing the game, and looking more likely to score than them, we almost went down there in the depths of their winter and beat them. We certainly scared the hell out of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bCaSVvqHG8

TarfHead

Webbs wrote:

.. what may go down as the greatest rugby team ..

.. to have never won a World Cup.

That accolade is possibly held by the AB side of 1996. They were similarly awesome but they ended up with the same number of winners medals as this lot currently have.

Nick Mallet's SA team beat all-comers for 19 games leading into RWC 1999 yet they didn't take the big prize.

In 12 months time we'll know more. If Henry is doing his job , then his team will peak in France and THAT is a scary prospect.

No less than Ireland, an injury one or more of McCaw, Carter, Hayman or Jack would weaken this team.

Erin Go Brath

The ABs are in fantastic form and destroyed everyone in sight on their European tour, except the best team in Europe.....Ireland

We have to remember they havent won the World Cup since '87, and
we could have, maybe should have beaten them once in the summer tests on their patch. We've also improved quite a bit since then imo.

I believe they may be the best team in the world, but they certainly are the best cheaters in the world. The constant infringing of their hardmen like McCaw and Collins was obvious to see against Wales, and thankfully the referee was alive to it.


It would be very interesting to see how they would do against an Ireland team in Landsdowne road. I certainly dont think its a given the ABs would beat us on current form, and considering the World Cup is in Europe, it might give us and advantage, and we can take them, and the World Cup!!!!

spanner

I think the difference between other years when the ABs were meant to win it is that austrailia, england and SA are playing very poorly and the gulf between them and the ABs. It really is the ABs the RCW to lose. A ABs team on fire in my opinion is unbeatable even by ireland playing to 100%, just looking at the welsh game, there competing at the break down, their ability to hit the rucks low and hard, yes they do play on the edge of the law but that is what they do in the southern hem

il gatto

Wales were good two years ago. Maybe we threw it away (o.k., we did threw it away), but Wales have deteriorated alot since their Six Nations win in 2005. The All Blacks looked unstoppable, but Wales weren't up to putting up a fight. Likewise the French. Does anyone believe that the France who come to Croke Park in the spring will be as poor?
Ireland is the only Northern Hemisphere team in form at the moment. The All Blacks weren't tested at all. I think the Tri Nations 2007 will be very interesting. Australia will pose them more problems than France or England. It might give us an indication of what to expect. If they have a few close scrapes or a loss, I think we can be confident of giving them a run for their money come the World Cup.

Sangre

Anyone else not see huge gaps in the NZ defense against Wales. Off a ruck the two first tacklers when fanning out would come up much faster, this leaves a massive gap for a winger coming in off an inside ball. Something Trimble or Horgan would exploit beautifully.

Although maybe they only had the gaps because Wales weren't usingi t.

Webbs

Sangre wrote:

Anyone else not see huge gaps in the NZ defense against Wales. Off a ruck the two first tacklers when fanning out would come up much faster, this leaves a massive gap for a winger coming in off an inside ball. Something Trimble or Horgan would exploit beautifully.

Although maybe they only had the gaps because Wales weren't usingi t.

The NZ defence is built around this hybrid of the blitz and drift. The inside defenders blitz to put pressure on 10 and 12 usually resulting in a hurried pass the other defenders are coming up in a more measured approach so that they are aware of a pop ball to incoming winger or chip behind (if you look as well that gap is often covered by NZ backrow forward).

Mind you saying that I think that Wales were stupid to pick an unfit Stephen jones and non kicking IC, so there was never any variety to at least make this defence hesitate and that is where the gaps would come from.

However, I don't think anyone says that there aren't going to be gaps in their defence if the ball is quick from ruck. I think NZ have an attitude of if you score a few tries against us no worries we'll just score more

Sangre

Webbs wrote:

The NZ defence is built around this hybrid of the blitz and drift. The inside defenders blitz to put pressure on 10 and 12 usually resulting in a hurried pass the other defenders are coming up in a more measured approach so that they are aware of a pop ball to incoming winger or chip behind (if you look as well that gap is often covered by NZ backrow forward).

Aye it was caused by the blitz and drift, often never too big a gap between the ruck and first tacklers but when there was it was huge. Even when covered by a backrow I'd expect a winger to use their pace to get around them and make massive ground.

Do this once or twice and they'll stop the blitz and drift, then they'll either need to hang back or use a simple blitz. Both defenses with their weakness (give 10 more time or suspectible to chipping).

Crusader4life

TarfHead wrote:

.. to have never won a World Cup.

That accolade is possibly held by the AB side of 1996. They were similarly awesome but they ended up with the same number of winners medals as this lot currently have.

Nick Mallet's SA team beat all-comers for 19 games leading into RWC 1999 yet they didn't take the big prize.

In 12 months time we'll know more. If Henry is doing his job , then his team will peak in France and THAT is a scary prospect.



No less than Ireland, an injury one or more of McCaw, Carter, Hayman or Jack would weaken this team.

ihgfjhg

Crusader4life

TarfHead wrote:

.. to have never won a World Cup.

That accolade is possibly held by the AB side of 1996. They were similarly awesome but they ended up with the same number of winners medals as this lot currently have.

Nick Mallet's SA team beat all-comers for 19 games leading into RWC 1999 yet they didn't take the big prize.

In 12 months time we'll know more. If Henry is doing his job , then his team will peak in France and THAT is a scary prospect.



No less than Ireland, an injury one or more of McCaw, Carter, Hayman or Jack would weaken this team.

Without McCaw or Carter there would be some issues as far as leadership goes but enter Marty Holah & Nick Evans (or McAlister) & its still a team capable of thumping anyone.

If I were Irish I wouldnt really take too much out of the Boks or Aussie games as they are just experimenting, the Tri Nations was fiercly fought & Aussie & SA couldnt afford to weaken their teams to create depth, they will both be a force to be reckoned with at the WC & are probably the only 2 teams capable of beating NZ.

This is IMO the making of the greatest team of all time & there is definitely a different feel about them heading into 2007..........the best is still to come.

Goodluck2me

wow the second try on that YOUtube clips from the ABs was simply awesome, backrow move to backs. very clinical