Almost interesting 1k event hand

Hectorjelly

Olly Boyce is the villain in this hand. Very tight table mid way through day 2. I havent been very aggressive recently. I have aprox 55k (maybe more). Olly has me well covered, probably over 100 but im not sure.

I get AA utg and make it 6k (bb is 2k). All fold to olly who calls. The flop is an unpleasant KTx all clubs. I have no club. Check Check, turn is a blank, he checks and I bet 10k into the 13k pot. He calls very quickly. River is a low club, and he bets 15k. Call, fold? Reraise all in? Just in case you missed, any club is a flush. I dont have a club. I think my action here is clear, but I reckon a lot of people might disagree.

Just to add, it was a great tournament, well done to the lads for organising it.

phantom_lord

call.

luckyvegas7

This is a quality post HJ, im far to pissed to reply to it atm.

padraig_f

Fold. He's not leading out with a lower pair cos if he was going to do that, he'd have done it on the turn. The only other thing you can beat is a bluff with a missed draw, but he's very unlikely to chase e.g. a straight draw, without a club in his hand, so a bluff doesn't make sense. Looks very much like a value bet with the Ac/Qc to me.

Solksjaer

Dare i respond to the great and powerful HJ ......difficult one here, the K of clubs is out there already , you have AA no club, he calls your raise instantly , so he must have a good hand here, following this hand I'd guess he had AK , hit his king and had the A of clubs to then secure the nuts, but then again I'd be paranoid here so gggrr it's a fold for me, despite the fact it's Ollieboy..(the chancer)

tell me tell me tell me.


Edit just reread your post, don't think he had AK more like A 10,, I'm sure he would hae reraised with AK.

bohsman

If he had a pair and the Ac Im sure he would have played it a lot more aggresively, I think there are merits for all 3 options but I think I just call, Im sure he doesnt have the nuts but am not willing to risk him making a huge call with a small club.

BigCityBanker

Why not bet the flop?

BIG-SLICK-POKER

i would hv made it hard 4 him 2 call the flop by bettin it hard if the table is tight he aint callin on a draw and lays it down - u left him win this pot by givin free turn n river --- i mite be wrong now --- but thats how i would play it -- then again it is day 2 so i would not hv made it 2 there lol

ocallagh

I just don't see how he would call 10k on the turn with a draw. He's totally priced out. Unless he had something like AcKx.. but again, as oscar said he'd play that much more aggresively. He *might* have something like AcQx, or QcQx and decided to call turn with the intention of pushing you off any river. really tough call, but I think I might just make it. You look very weak here and he'll certainly be using that against you.. (Villain is very good at spotting weakness in his opponents IMO!)

bohsman

He doesnt try to push him off it on the river though, he bets less than half the pot.

mewso

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think my action here is clear, but I reckon a lot of people might disagree.

I'm going to say fold despite this ever so slighty "say the wrong thing" and you are an idiot type statement which despite the intent will skew the repsonses away from fold because of all the cowards who don't like to disagree with you .

bops

i'd fold - i think he's floped the nuts - lucky fecker

TacT

I have a feeling you wanted to reraise him all-in but didn't? I fold

shaydy

whats ollys position in this hand? Was he the bb?

MrPillowTalk

Looks suspiciously like a block bet on the end and Olly can fold a hand so I would lean toward pushing here, allthough folding is probably fine too.

jimbling

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Looks suspiciously like a block bet on the end and Olly can fold a hand so I would lean toward pushing here, allthough folding is probably fine too.

i was going to say push too... but does he really have enough chips to make Olly fold. I'm not sure. he's only going to have a call of about 25k for an 80k pot*.





*quick math approximation.

Gholimoli

if HJ pushes he is basically hoping that Ollie has no clubs and cant call the bet as Ollie will have to call the push with any club.
the way HJ played the hand i wouldnt give him cridet for a big club at all as he checks behind on the flop with 3 clubs there.
i would call this bet as i think HJ still has some show down value with his hand as the 15K bet does look like a bit like a blocker.
its either that or fold for me.
again pushing may get him off a small club or a no club hand,but with a club i dont think Ollie should fold and with out a club i think our hand has show down value so i dont see the point in pushing here.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

if HJ pushes he is basically hoping that Ollie has no clubs and cant call the bet as Ollie will have to call the push with any club.
the way HJ played the hand i wouldnt give him cridet for a big club at all as he checks behind on the flop with 3 clubs there.
i would call this bet as i think HJ still has some show down value with his hand as the 15K bet does look like a bit like a blocker.
its either that or fold for me.
again pushing may get him off a small club or a no club hand,but with a club i dont think Ollie should fold and with out a club i think our hand has show down value so i dont see the point in pushing here.

A push can get him to laydown JcJx, QcQx and even such delights as a low set.

I dont like calling, as he might win by having one of these cr@ppy clubs, and surely he cant bet the river without a reasonably high club.

Folding cant bet bad tho, but I kinda like a big bluff here.

Flushdraw

I'd lean towards a raise here. Ollie could easily be calling your turn bet with the intention of betting any club on the river. A call here and Ollie may win with a mediocre flush but he's quite capable of layin down to a raise

jimbling

fuzzbox wrote:

A push can get him to laydown JcJx, QcQx and even such delights as a low set.

I dont like calling, as he might win by having one of these cr@ppy clubs, and surely he cant bet the river without a reasonably high club.

Folding cant bet bad tho, but I kinda like a big bluff here.

I really really doubt that olly would lay down Jc or Qc in that spot. And he def shouldn't. HJ would have put him under more pressure on the flop if he had high club. And a big bluff requires putting a player under pressure where its a lot of chips. No way I would lay down the 2nd/3rd nut flush when Im getting 4-1 on my money..... and will still have plenty chips to play with if I lose. And on top of that, it's HJ

Low set is a possible hand for olly though, and I think he would lay that down in a shot.
I really don't think its a value call either. It's a fold for me.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

A push can get him to laydown JcJx, QcQx and even such delights as a low set.

I dont like calling, as he might win by having one of these cr@ppy clubs, and surely he cant bet the river without a reasonably high club.

Folding cant bet bad tho, but I kinda like a big bluff here.

I cant imagine Ollie folding Qc nor Jc here if Daragh pushes. If Daragh had a high club i'd expect him to bet the flop...

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I cant imagine Ollie folding Qc nor Jc here if Daragh pushes. If Daragh had a high club i'd expect him to bet the flop...

Oh ? Why ?

I would often check this flop with AcKx. ... and AcAx and AcQx and so on ... in position.

ianmc38

Scracth that yes sometimes he'd check behind, but if he has a high club with a large PP or AK, he'll be looking at the best way to get all Ollys chips in the centre. Normally that'll be by betting 3 streets....

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

A push can get him to laydown JcJx, QcQx and even such delights as a low set.

I dont like calling, as he might win by having one of these cr@ppy clubs, and surely he cant bet the river without a reasonably high club.

Folding cant bet bad tho, but I kinda like a big bluff here.

Fuzz,
with the amount that is already in the pot Ollie should not(and im sure would not ) lay down Jc or Qc here.
it dont think its right to lay down any club here at all in Ollie's position due to the amount already in the pot and the way the hand has been played.(remember HJ checked the 3club flop).
the only way Ollie should fold to a push is if he has no clubs at all.and if thats the case HJ has some showdown value with his hand and thats why i dont like the push.

White Knight

HJ raised preflop and checks the flop - imo this shows strength rather than weakness. In most cases if a player flops a flush (if he has 2 big clubs or nut flush) he ususally checks the flop to see if his opponent has any of it. He then bets out on the turn after the check. Ollie then puts out a feeler imo to see how big the hand HJ has - I push

cardshark202

Fold or Shove. Calling is bad. Still unsure as to which I would do, maybe fold.

fuzzbox

btw - fold is the default, but shove is certainly worth considering.

I dont much like a call, because olly *shouldnt* bet the river with no clubs.

Hitman Actual

So you're getting ~2/1 on a call? I wouldn't expect AA to be ahead here often enough for calling to be profitable. Fold for me.

Hectorjelly

Yeah I thought it was interesting, quite a few different responses. I called for a number of reasons.

Olly is a tight good player, There is no way he is calling my bet on the turn to hit a flush.
My hand looks like total air. Everybody was c-betting, and I dont think anyone would expect me to check behind AA on that board
Ollys bet on the river is quite small and was a blocking bet I felt. There was 48k in there, and only 15 for me to call. My hand only has to be good here a small % of the time to make it profitable. There is a much less than 50% chance that olly has a club in his hand, if I bet the flop this may be different.

One of the main reasons I check the flop is keep the pot small and manageable, meaning if Im forced to a decision its going to be a relatively small one rather than for my whole stack. I really would not enjoy calling all in on this flop.

I called and he said had a king, I showed my aces and they were good.

Olly played very well the whole time I was at his table and made a fantastic bluff on Mick McCluskey that he should write about

Hitman Actual

Hectorjelly wrote:

There was 48k in there, and only 15 for me to call. My hand only has to be good here a small % of the time to make it profitable. There is a much less than 50% chance that olly has a club in his hand, if I bet the flop this may be different.

Oops, I miscounted the pot-size. Makes a call much easier, but still not sure I'd make it.

jimbling

Hectorjelly wrote:

Olly is a tight good player, There is no way he is calling my bet on the turn to hit a flush.

My hand looks like total air. Everybody was c-betting, and I dont think anyone would expect me to check behind AA on that board
Ollys bet on the river is quite small and was a blocking bet I felt. There was 48k in there, and only 15 for me to call. My hand only has to be good here a small % of the time to make it profitable. There is a much less than 50% chance that olly has a club in his hand, if I bet the flop this may be different.

One of the main reasons I check the flop is keep the pot small and manageable, meaning if Im forced to a decision its going to be a relatively small one rather than for my whole stack. I really would not enjoy calling all in on this flop.

I called and he said had a king, I showed my aces and they were good.

Olly played very well the whole time I was at his table and made a fantastic bluff on Mick McCluskey that he should write about

Would you have pushed if Olly had checked the river?
Would you have called if Olly pushed the river?
Do you think that Olly played the hand well?

Hectorjelly

jimbling wrote:

Would you have pushed if Olly had checked the river?
Would you have called if Olly pushed the river?
Do you think that Olly played the hand well?

No, a player with a tighter and less tricky image probably should though.
I doubt it. It would be madness of his part though.
Difficult question. Firstly Im not sure what he had. I dont really like the call out of position, and its not like I was raising his BB on a regular basis. (I was utg +1 on his BB). On the flop he has to expect me to CB, and I would a lot so his check is ok. On the turn I have successfully disguised my hand, there is no way he can know his king is not good. Im not sure how I feel about his river bet, I think it would be successfull in stopping most opponents bluffing, but using a blocking bet against a aggresive thinking opponent is going to be a recipe for trouble. Im going to instantly call with any club, and I did call without too much thought with AA so its not working as a bluff. I think I may well call with QQ or JJ (I may not) as I thought his hand range was very specically a king or a ten. So basically its a bet with no value except to make it harder for me to bluff him. He may well of expected me to fold no club there though.

I think the main problem with the hand from his perspective is that he is out of position against a tricky player who is playing well and is going to make his life extremely difficult. I hate calling raises out of position against even mediocre players unless the stacks are very deep and so I can make a big profit if I do stack them.

Ollieboy

Firstly, I never had him on AA here as he got it so many times during the day. I thought my K was good here, as I knew Darragh didnt have a club, unless he was playing very tricky, the bet on the river had two effects, 1 to block and take the pot by making it hard for him to call without a club, I think a lot of players would have fold here because of that, 2 I was trying to extract some value, as I felt Darragh might have had me on less than a K and I was hoping he had a pp, both these statements are contradicting, but I wasn't sure where both of us were in the hand.

when he check the flop I felt I was ahead and the 3rd and 4th club saved me from losing a big pot here, as I felt my K was good, I also felt Darragh was sick of me raising his blinds, so I thought it was a bit of my own medicine...lol.

It was a funny hand, because I think both of us were glad to be still alive after it and it was the only time we played a flop together even do we sat together for the whole day.

gg mate.

jimbling

I like the way ye both played this hand. Made for interesting discussion too.

Gholimoli

i obviously like HJ's call on the river as i said i would call here my self.
from Ollie's point of view i actually like the river bet alot but deffo not as a value bet but as pure bluff and it would get alot of players to fold if they dont hold a club.however there is no way i would make that bet if i thought my K was good even a small % of time and the way the hand was played by HJ i would consider my K to be good some of the times.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

i obviously like HJ's call on the river as i said i would call here my self.
from Ollie's point of view i actually like the river bet alot but deffo not as a value bet but as pure bluff and it would get alot of players to fold if they dont hold a club.however there is no way i would make that bet if i thought my K was good even a small % of time and the way the hand was played by HJ i would consider my K to be good some of the times.

I actually think similarly to this, as a value river bet I dislike it, HJ's never calling with a hand weaker than a K.

I thought it was a call, it's such a lovely card for Ollie to Bluff on, and HJ's hand is seriously under represented. I think a push here is just suicide. I would have thought that Ollie either has a very big hand or nothing. As any hand with showdown value I'd have expected him to check down as HJ is unlikely to bluff at this River, therefore I'd have thought he'd have nothing or a very strong hand, calling wins the same but loses less than a push.

Folding is certainly a possibility but I think I'd make the call, only because I'm a calling station.

MrPillowTalk

I think I prefer a push to a call, we get 2 pair, a set and maybe a small made flush to fold.

The problem I have with calling is that I would often make a bet like Ollies without a club but it would either be a) a last chance total stab that I would fold to any raise or b) a block bet when I think my hand has showdown value and I dont want to make it easy to bluff me off the pot. If we raise then we get both these scenarios to fold, but if you flat call then we only beat scenario A. If we think Ollies bet is a blocker then we have to believe he has two pair at least really.

Of course the flipside is we go broke if he has a high club, its close but I think the push is marginally better, the more chips HJ has the better a push becomes.

pok3rplaya

McShove

Hectorjelly

I dont like a push because it only makes sense if I have the ace of clubs. Im not really going to push the king here, and because I checked the flop I would guess most opponents will rule out any chance of me having the ace of clubs, unless I flopped the nut flush.

MrPillowTalk

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont like a push because it only makes sense if I have the ace of clubs. Im not really going to push the king here, and because I checked the flop I would guess most opponents will rule out any chance of me having the ace of clubs, unless I flopped the nut flush.

I dont know Daragh the way the action goes I could easily have you on AcQx, AcJx or maybe even a strangely played Ac10x.

pok3rplaya

I guess he leads/raises at least the turn (if not flop) with 2pr/sets so we can discount a little value from shoving because there's no value in trying to fold hands he doesn't have.

I think the main value in shoving is folding low clubs that he is "bluffing" with. His earlier street play could suggest a low pp since you checked the flop. Also you made no flop attempt to protect your hand so I don't see how he can't put you on the ace of clubs.

I deff don't like fold anyway.