GJP 300 el busto hand

mdwexford

first level, 25-50
im in the sb with 9s-10s, 2 limpers, i complete, bb checks

board comes Ks-8h-7s
i check, bb bets 200, the two limpers call, i make it 1000 to go
bb re-pops it to 2500, the 2 limpers pass and i push for 6500 ish
the bb thinks for a good while and eventually calls with K-8

the board bricks out and im el busto in less than 30 mins

would anyone have played this hand any differently???

i always play my draws really aggresively but im missing them so much lately i think i need a plan b

phantom_lord

em, 45min blinds....no need for that at this stage.

I wouldn't repop, and I'd fold to the reraise. Fair enough being agressive with your draws, but this is ott.imo.

mdwexford

but im a fav against anything other than a set

at what stage would you pass, when he makes it 2500??

bottom feeder

mdwexford wrote:

first level, 25-50
im in the sb with 9s-10s, 2 limpers, i complete, bb checks

board comes Ks-8h-7s
i check, bb bets 200, the two limpers call, i make it 1000 to go
bb re-pops it to 2500, the 2 limpers pass and i push for 6500 ish
the bb thinks for a good while and eventually calls with K-8

the board bricks out and im el busto in less than 30 mins

would anyone have played this hand any differently???

i always play my draws really aggresively but im missing them so much lately i think i need a plan b

you answered this yourself....


putting all your chips in on a draw is not good especially in the first level of a tournie, as your not sure how your opponents play i.e lose - calling station etc plus there's plenty of time in the structure to make moves.......
myself personally would not have made this move unless i had a good read on the player, i also would have taught about what he was rasing me with??.....

phantom_lord

mdwexford wrote:

but im a fav against anything other than a set

at what stage would you pass, when he makes it 2500??

prob not.im too tired.ill post again tommorrow.


edit, didn;t realise you'd the flush draw as well. I'd go with a flat call on the flop, but yeah push is prob fine.you're behind 2 pair.

delanec8

I would usually lead out here and am willing to get my chips allin on the flop if im reraised.

Vamos

bottom feeder wrote:

putting all your chips in on a draw is not good especially in the first level of a tournie,

If hit the flop like this, I'll always lead out, and try to get it all-in if reraised regardless of what level. Imo your ahead most of the time.

BigCityBanker

You have 10 high - what are you ahead of most of the time when somebody 3 bets a pot on the flop?

I dont think anybody should be going broke on this hand.

Vamos

BigCityBanker wrote:

You have 10 high - what are you ahead of most of the time when somebody 3 bets a pot on the flop?

I dont think anybody should be going broke on this hand.

What are you behind in a limped pot most of the time?

cardshark202

You guys do know you are ahead of all 1 pair hands and are only a slight dog to all 2 pair hands?

Given these stacksizes, I think a check-raise is awkward and I would prefer a bet-three-bet here. I don't see anything wrong with going broke here. Its a huge draw.

Vamos

cardshark202 wrote:

You guys do know you are ahead of all 1 pair hands and are only a slight dog to all 2 pair hands?

Given these stacksizes, I think a check-raise is awkward and I would prefer a bet-three-bet here. I don't see anything wrong with going broke here. Its a huge draw.

Exactly, imo you're looking at 8x 7x a lot of the time here, where you're a good favourite, even if one of them is a spade.

NickyOD

bet-three bet is the best line. I'd never fold this unless I knew I was playing Tighty McTight who would only commit with a set which given the action can really only be one hand. 55.

You're a little better than 48/52 against K-8. I'd take this race and have no regrets at all about losing it. Every time you win it you set yourself up to go deep.

BigCityBanker

NickyOD wrote:

You're a little better than 48/52 against K-8. I'd take this race and have no regrets at all about losing it. Every time you win it you set yourself up to go deep.

Would you get it all in preflop with 33 against AK for similar odds and be happy with your play if u went bust?

Maybe im just a tight git - I would never allow myself to go broke here. There is far too much play in this tourney to go broke at this stage.

Doc Farrell

BigCityBanker wrote:

Would you get it all in preflop with 33 against AK for similar odds and be happy with your play if u went bust?

Maybe im just a tight git - I would never allow myself to go broke here. There is far too much play in this tourney to go broke at this stage.

exactly. losing all your chips at this early stage on a draw was a disaster, there's no way to sugar coat it.

DeadParrot

silly hand
Its WAY too early to get yourself involved in a draw like this...im surprised no-one said fold to the raise preflop, but i am a tight git

Hawk Eye

DeadParrot wrote:

silly hand
Its WAY too early to get yourself involved in a draw like this...im surprised no-one said fold to the raise preflop, but i am a tight git

Because there wasn't one...
Its not that bad, you should know that theres no fold equity once he repops it but the only hand you don't want to see is Ax of spades (37-63), you can probably eliminate a set if he checked his option quickly.
Just cause its a deepstacked tourney doesn't mean you shouldn't be getting your chips in here these situations occur all the time in cash games where stacks can be 200BB's deep.

On a side note I love raising from the blinds with these kind of sc's.

Mellor

I wouldn't or re-raised the flop. smooth called and see what happens.
Had a massive draw, and probably thought you had 15 outs, actually 14 which is damm good. BUT i wouldn't get too aggressive with a draw in level one.

DeadParrot

Hawk Eye wrote:

Because there wasn't one...

i check, bb bets 200,

i must be crazy so, i read it arseways, wouldnt have re-raised it though.

PiperT

Seems to be mixed opinions on this.

Sure, its a massive draw but why the need to re-pop it when somebody else is already showing an interest/strength on the flop. I prefer to call the 200 and see a cheap card, if I hit my draw there's a good chance I'm still getting action from the BB.

If I don't hit, I have decision to make based on BB's next move. I may also lead out for another card (1/4 - 1/3 pot) if I think there's a chance it will get through. (maybe not in this case though as BB seems agg)

I want to avoid going broke on a draw this early in the game.

NickyOD

BigCityBanker wrote:

Would you get it all in preflop with 33 against AK for similar odds and be happy with your play if u went bust?

Maybe im just a tight git - I would never allow myself to go broke here. There is far too much play in this tourney to go broke at this stage.

If he turns AK face up then yes I call. Likewise if I have AK and he shows 33 I also call. In fact the earlier it is in the tournament the more likely I am to take a race.

RichieLawlor

BigCityBanker wrote:

Maybe im just a tight git - I would never allow myself to go broke here. There is far too much play in this tourney to go broke at this stage.

Obviously you are a tight git. try gambling in this spot once in a while you might give yourself a chance to win a tournament.

It doesnt matter whether this is hand one or the last hand imo this is a huge draw and me (as well as most people would be happy to gamble with such a draw) and there is a possibility of the bb passing also. i think this play is definitly +ev in the long run.

nicnicnic

I don't see anything wrong with the play some will and some wont take the gamble here. Would you think the fact that it was a €300 event the day after you played a €1000 event has any bearing on your decision. I know €300 is a decent event but in the context of the festival i think main event players will generally play looser and gamble more then normally, i know i do.

mdwexford

any comment about it being too early to get involved with a draw is ridiculous imo, what does it matter how early it is????

i dont care if its the first hand of the tourney or how long the levels are, im playing to win and if i think i have the best of it the chips are going in

nicnicnic wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with the play some will and some wont take the gamble here. Would you think the fact that it was a €300 event the day after you played a €1000 event has any bearing on your decision. I know €300 is a decent event but in the context of the festival i think main event players will generally play looser and gamble more then normally, i know i do.

i admit i wasnt in the mood to play like an uber-rock and sit there and fold for hours nic but i dont think im passing this hand at any stage of any tournament

Solksjaer

ALL in on a draw is basically what this is not matter how you look at it, despite the outs it's a gamble. So if you like to gamble it's a good place to do it, if you don't like to gamble it's a fold, quite simple really. Depending on my mood I'd do either. I hope your luck improves. (against me please fold)

ianmc38

I get it in here every single time.

sikes

i dont see peoples problem of getting it all in on a draw. if you had K7 here and you saw your opponents 910, your calling right? the 2% difference isnt enough to make me fold


i prob lead out, but will get it in on the flop. Obvioulsy we are happier if he folds the push.

bops

mdwexford wrote:

any comment about it being too early to get involved with a draw is ridiculous imo, what does it matter how early it is????

i dont care if its the first hand of the tourney or how long the levels are, im playing to win and if i think i have the best of it the chips are going in

i admit i wasnt in the mood to play like an uber-rock and sit there and fold for hours nic but i dont think im passing this hand at any stage of any tournament

Why ask for people's opinions if you are only going to disregard and insult there responses??

You should have folded preflop and waited for AA as you normally do

cardshark202

So much weak-tight advice here. If you're not happy to get it in here, you are essentially dead money.

BigCityBanker

cardshark202 wrote:

So much weak-tight advice here. If you're not happy to get it in here, you are essentially dead money.

He got it in there and was the dead money. If he got it in 100 times there he would be the dead money 52 of those times. QED.

Iago

BigCityBanker wrote:

He got it in there and was the dead money. If he got it in 100 times there he would be the dead money 52 of those times. QED.

flawed thinking, you're working on the premise that your opponent will always have 2 pair there.

Sometimes they'll have a set, sometimes they'll have two pair, sometimes they'll have one pair and sometimes they'll have a draw.

If you were to do this everytime the situation presented itself I think you would make more than you'd lose over time. There is also the added $EV for all the times that you do hit your draw.

I don't think pushing is a bad thing.

ianmc38

Well against a range of hands we're actually a favourite. This includes all sets, two pair, TPTK, TPGK and a worse combo draw like 5s6s. Add folding equity into the equation and this becomes seriously +EV.

Board: Ks 8s 7h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 48.7758 % 48.77% 00.00% { KK+, 88-77, AKs, KQs, K8s-K7s, 87s, 6s5s, AKo, KQo, K8o-K7o, 87o }
Hand 2: 51.2242 % 51.22% 00.00% { Ts9s }



Results based thinking that's what...

BigCityBanker

thats some good maths Ian - im gonna push every draw from here on in. Il probably get a better rush out of it than continually getting my AA dogged.

Lazare

A push here is perfect play.

I can't understand people saying "it's too early in a tournament to risk your stack on a draw".
Early levels are the best time to double up, allowing you to widen your range and speculate on a lot of cheap flops.

This is a 14 outer (not including runner runner trips) remember, it's a huge draw and the possibility of your opponent folding to the push makes this a no brainer.

5starpool

Either or is fine for me in this situation. I think that I would have led the flop though and if raised then 3 bet the mofo. As played there is little fold equity left when you push as he is getting 2.5/1 on his extra 4k and since you had only ~45% of your starting stack left I assume he had you well covered.

Hitman Actual

BigCityBanker wrote:

He got it in there and was the dead money. If he got it in 100 times there he would be the dead money 52 of those times. QED.

Nope, when the money goes in (his push for 6500) it's a clear +EV move, even without taking into account folding equity. Taking it as a 50/50 shot (reasonable, I think):

EV = 0.5(10,000) + 0.5(-6500) = +1750

But I prefer bet 3bet.

jimbling

why do people bother trying to argue these points.
Some poker players believe you should take every single edge you have, and be willing to risk it and race on every occasion. Others think you should try to never race (for all your chips) and accumulate slowly but surely.

Personally I have jumped from bandwagon to bandwagon and I'm still not sure which I agree with.

Don't think you should be counting on too much fold equity here though. very very small % chance of a fold here.

mdwexford

bops wrote:

Why ask for people's opinions if you are only going to disregard and insult there responses??

You should have folded preflop and waited for AA as you normally do

i have not insulted anybodys responce troll boy, if some people decide to fold this hand at any stage thats their perogative, all i said is that what stage of a tournament it is should have no bearing on how the hand is played.

btw your a jackass.......:p

bops

lol good answer!!
ul in the ME btw
cya in cork??