Ruleing please

jem

home game, i am not in pot.
dealer turns over card on second round- its then the burnt card.
betting , 4 players in afaik.
flop -, bet, fold raise, call
turn - bet, call, ****- on dealing the flop dealer had burnt a card so 2 cards burnt on flop.
there had been significant action,
unsure as to correct order of cards to fix problem,
In the end the hand was declared void, I disagreed but as I wasn't part of pot, at the time i felt the hand should continue due to the action.
in hinesite thought that perhaps leave the correct burnt card to one side and shuffel and redeal the flop with the players involved geting bact their post folp chips.


2nd hand

i am mid position couple of flat callers I raise 4times bb (pk aces), fold fold player to my right had flat called apparently, i couldn't/didn't see he had cards and acted before him by droping my cards into middle of table, didn't hit anyone or anything else inc muck, player said hold on he was still in hand . argument- I said the fact that there is no line actually on table, andthe cards hadn't hit the muck or dealer (player earlier knocked out) , (in fact my hand was just after dropping them and still over them when it was called) they were still live, the dealer disagreed, saying that it had happened to him a previous night (his cards had been in the muck) He also said if he hadn't been quick about cleaning up the muck to keep the game going the cards would have hit the muck- I said if my aunt had b***s she would be my uncle.
I then picked up my cards and touched them against the much and pushed the chips to the other player.
Still feel I was right on my idea of rules.
opinions please.

Crumbs

First hand

Significant action has certainly taken place and the hand should continue as is. The lesson: when a card is burned prematurely, the dealer should replace it back on top of the deck rather than leave it lying in the middle of the table. That way, when the action has finished, the dealer won't mistakingly burn another card.

Second hand

Although it's your own responsibility to know whether everyone else has folded or not, it was a genuine mistake and your hand should still be live. It's blatant angle-shooting by the other player. The lesson: don't throw your cards away until you've been awarded the pot. If it's a home game where the winner just grabs the pot themselves, keep your cards in front of you while you rake in the chips.

5starpool

Crumbs wrote:

First hand

Significant action has certainly taken place and the hand should continue as is. The lesson: when a card is burned prematurely, the dealer should replace it back on top of the deck rather than leave it lying in the middle of the table. That way, when the action has finished, the dealer won't mistakingly burn another card.

I believe the potential of forgetting and burning another card when you shouldn't is probably why the Fitz rule for this is to use the 3rd bottom card in the deck. This allows the dealer to burn and turn as normal.

DeVore

5starpool wrote:

I believe the potential of forgetting and burning another card when you shouldn't is probably why the Fitz rule for this is to use the 3rd bottom card in the deck. This allows the dealer to burn and turn as normal.

It makes sense. I like the Fitz 3-rd from the bottom rule simply because it affects the hand that WOULD have played the least. Making the bummed card the burnt card means the card that would have been burned is now first on the flop, 3rd on the flop becomes the burned card before the turn etc etc everything is displaced.

Second hand: Well, I'm going to be a bit contentious and say that not only are your cards live but that if the dealer REALLY had been doing his job he would have been on the ball enough to stop you. Certainly he should push your cards back to you. Watch the dealers in the Fitz, I can't count how many times Adam, Ritchie, Marq, Snowie et al have put a hand up and said "wait" when a player was about to do something dumb. When Luke taught me he told me that the dealer (and by extension the floormanager) were there to keep the spirit of fairness in the game and keep the game running smoothly, part of that was protecting players from other players and part of it is protecting players from themselves!

DeV.

5starpool

DeVore wrote:

It makes sense. I like the Fitz 3-rd from the bottom rule simply because it affects the hand that WOULD have played the least. Making the bummed card the burnt card means the card that would have been burned is now first on the flop, 3rd on the flop becomes the burned card before the turn etc etc everything is displaced.

It doesn't affect the flop either way if done correctly. In the example in the OP the burn card is dealt to the player instead of the exposed card and the exposed card becomes the burn card. If you are doing this you should place the exposed card face up on the top of the deck, ensuring this is the card you burn. The board cards should never be affected due to a flipped card.

mormank

1st hand. I have always used the 3rd card from the bottom rule. this does help avoid mistakes i feel. hand shouldnt be voided. action has indeed taken place!!! 2nd hand. It is your own responsibility however you're hand isnt dead until it hits the muck or you for some reason say fold which you surely nevre siad pre flop with pocket aces in hand!!! You were stiffed by your fickle friends on this one i feel and rightly feel aggrieved however im sure its not the first time you have been left feling aggrieved by a poker ruling and it certainly wont be the last im sure.

DeVore

5starpool wrote:

It doesn't affect the flop either way if done correctly. In the example in the OP the burn card is dealt to the player instead of the exposed card and the exposed card becomes the burn card. If you are doing this you should place the exposed card face up on the top of the deck, ensuring this is the card you burn. The board cards should never be affected due to a flipped card.

Well thats true but there are some further comments I'd make...

Firstly, its not always done that way. Sometimes they give the third card from the base and THEN treat the exposed card as the burned card so the real burned card then comes into play (yeuch!).

Secondly the dealer then sometimes makes a further mistake by burning a second card, as per Hand 1 above.

But most importantly the burn card has a purpose that becomes void when you deal it as a replacement. The back of the first card of the flop is exposed for a round of betting.

DeV.