Buying Guns Abroad

Mufflets

Im looking for my first shotgun. I sort of had my heart set on a beretta 686 sporting (or similar). I cant afford a new one and finding one second hand in this country is like finding hens teeth. (anyone know where theres one for sale or a gun shop with a big second-hand selection please let me know) anyway i was looking at some english gun sites where these guns and others are plentyfull and was thinking about trying to import one e.g.

http://www.avalon-guns.com/

Has anyone had any experience doing similar.

Cheers.

dsaint1

Yep, I ordered a beretta semi-auto Al391 from Avalon Guns about 6 weeks ago. I had rang them and they told me there'd be no problem getting a gun sent over and that in fact they deal with a lot of customers from the south of Ireland. So, after leaving a deposit with them a receipt with model no. etc. was sent to me within a few days which I used to apply for the new licence. Five weeks later the licence was issued without a problem. I then rang Avalon guns to be told ... "oh, eh sorry but we can't send you the gun because of a recent change in the law, so we'll be refunding you're credit card."

Cost of gun new from Avalon guns was £750. I have seen it for £699 since.

Quoted here from the Importers of Beretta....1530

A difference of over 400 euro for the same gun. Hmmm, I wish you luck cuz no doubt you will save a fortune if they can get one sent over for you !

civdef

www.frankonia.de

They have an international section to their website.

Clare gunner

www.egun.de
Works on the same principle as Ebay,with also the buy it now feature.Click on the US/UK flag on the startseite[start page ] for english translations.

vcsggl

Sorry to hear of the problems with Avalon Guns Mufflet. In my experience they are extremely helpful and so far as price is concerned they will invariably match any offer you have from elsewhere. The "change in the law" - is that a change in Ireland or a change here in the UK?? Might be worth giving Avalon a call as they are still advertising the fact that they can ship guns outside the UK.

George

.243

could be to do with the new changes in the postal division,there was a halt with sending firearms through the postal system over there a while back,dont kow if it was resolved since,try getting it sent to your local dealer ??

Mufflets

Thanks for the responses, Was talking to Avalon guns and it appears that they do ship guns to ireland but only via a gun dealer . So im going to crack on and will keep you all updated because as was pointed out it could mean a considerable saving on prices charged by irish dealers as well as larger variety.

dsaint1

When I rang Avalon they were actually very helpful and explained that the gun would be sent to Maclures in the north and he would then get it sent to a dealer that he knew in the south. But as it happened none of that could be done because of this new law. The girl I was talking to from Avalon couldn't explain exactly what the change was though.

oztots

Sorry to dig up an old thread,

But is importing guns cheaper and how much does this complicate things as far as getting the gun is concerned?

Thanks,

Aaron

jwshooter

how would you buy a shot gun over the inter net ,you have to pick it up make sure it fits etc.

could be the worse money you spent.

elius

Ive imported a gun that was left to me in a will from the uk a good few years back took an awfull lot of hassle and red tape. I had to get permission from the state temp uk licence imporation licence so much hassle... spend the extra 400 lids...

meathshooter

that proposed bill banning personal imports is not signed into law yet

rrpc

that proposed bill banning personal imports is not signed into law yet

It may as well be. You still have to get an importation licence from the DoJ and they're not giving them out at the moment. Haven't been giving them out for some time in fact. There's a thread here somewhere talking about it.

In any case, the whole transport of firearms across borders is getting more and more difficult. I know Switzerland no longer post firearms other than to countries that border them and Italy never did. The whole thing is now handled by specialist couriers and they cost a fortune.

Probably the cheapest way now is to go there and get it yourself (if you could get an import licence) and that's hardly cheap either.

Sparks

You don't need an import licence from the DoJ for a personal import, you just need the firearms licence and the article 7 from the Gardai. It's firearms dealers who need the import licence from the DoJ (which is what is being done away with in the Misc.Provisions Bill).

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

You don't need an import licence from the DoJ for a personal import, you just need the firearms licence and the article 7 from the Gardai. It's firearms dealers who need the import licence from the DoJ (which is what is being done away with in the Misc.Provisions Bill).

From the DoJ website:

An individual importing a firearm or ammunition from a member state of the European Union:

a. Complete the application form Firearms Import/Export Application Form for Individuals.

b. Attach to the application a copy of the valid firearms certificate for the firearm or ammunition to be imported.

c. In the case of firearms listed as category B in the EU Directive 91/477/EEC, a copy of a document entitled Article 7, which is issued by a superintendent of An Garda Síochána, must be attached to the application.

d. Forward the above to the Firearms and Explosives Unit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which will return to you a transfer document with which you can legally import the firearm or ammunition.

If the import is outside the EU, you don't need to fill out the application for an import licence. Article 7's are only for Cat.B firearms.

It's this bit that's being stopped in the Bill. You'll no longer be able to import as an individual full stop.

cavan shooter

Living in a border area I have and know people who have purchased guns in the North, the "import license" was always a formaility and was sent to you by registered post within a couple of days.

It was always a bone of contention with the RFDs that an individual could do that, and they are at present walking around with glee rubbing there hands at what has happened, with one dealer saying to a chap, you maybe able to safe €250 but try and import it.

Find me a RFD who will import something especially for you without putting on at least the savings as commission and I'll change dealers.

I know two dealers that bring most firearms in from the UK/NI and they are competitive with the price compared to others who source from Republic.

It wasn't me!

The Sako I'm buying at the moment is in England. Currently the plan is to ship to a dealer in the north, who specialises in dealing with trade between mainland Great Britain and the Republic. Currently details are being worked out with regard to temporary permit to go up and collect versus posting to dealership here or whatever.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

From the DoJ website

Yes, but if you had the licence for it, your section seven allowed you to personally go abroad, buy it and bring it home without needing the import licence from the DoJ (your physical crossing of the border being the loophole this worked through). Which I'm presuming is the part they weren't happy with, as it means that the paper trail doesn't start off with them so there's no central register showing where the firearms came from. Well, fair enough I suppose. But forcing us to go through Irish dealers isn't a proportionate response.

If they eliminated that part, so that we all had to get the personal import licence through that procedure above, it'd be a darn sight less painful than the markup we're seeing in the ROI from Irish dealers.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but if you had the licence for it, your section seven allowed you to personally go abroad, buy it and bring it home without needing the import licence from the DoJ (your physical crossing of the border being the loophole this worked through). Which I'm presuming is the part they weren't happy with, as it means that the paper trail doesn't start off with them so there's no central register showing where the firearms came from. Well, fair enough I suppose. But forcing us to go through Irish dealers isn't a proportionate response.

An Article 7 is only for category B firearms, it doesn't take the place of an import permit from the DoJ. To go abroad and bring it home, you need your import permit, your licence in the state and permission from each jurisdiction you pass through on the way home. I thought that quote from the DoJ website was clear enough on that point?

If they eliminated that part, so that we all had to get the personal import licence through that procedure above, it'd be a darn sight less painful than the markup we're seeing in the ROI from Irish dealers.

Most dealers don't want to do this on a one off basis. I was speaking to one of the most prominent dealers in the country yesterday and he said he's not doing them full stop.

Why?

Because of what I said in my earlier post about the whole shipping of firearms throughout Europe ending up in the hands of specialist courier firms and being dropped by postal services. This will affect dealers as much as it will affect the ordinary user as unless there's a quantity coming from the one place, the cost of transport will be disproportionately high. I've heard figures of €400 to transport a single shotgun from the UK :eek:

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

I thought that quote from the DoJ website was clear enough on that point?

It was, the problem is that that's not how things have been done here for years (without prosecution for importing firearms illegally, which you'd imagine the DoJ and Gardai wouldn't be turning a blind eye to). Most of the stuff used in Ireland isn't category B anyway, only pistols are (well, for the most part of what we do here anyway). The permission to pass through jurisdictions is the europass which is something the firearms licence entitles you to under the law (along with the article seven), and the article seven is explicit in permitting the holder to purchase ammunitions or firearms covered by their firearms cert. It's a loophole, no doubting that, but not one that's caused any harm, just paperwork blips. If they wanted to sort it out by saying that personal imports now required the article 11 from the DoJ as well as the article 7, well, that's just another form to fill out. But requiring us to go through Irish RFDs is going to crucify us on prices. Feck, it's not like we're buying off the back of a Czech lorry on the far end of these deals, we're going through RFDs in other jurisdictions (which under EU law have to have their paperwork and records available to the Gardai/DoJ anyway).

We've discussed this before
here and here

Most dealers don't want to do this on a one off basis. I was speaking to one of the most prominent dealers in the country yesterday and he said he's not doing them full stop.

I'm finding it hard to get over my cynicism that dealers would turn down an economic monopoly, despite knowing several decent ones personally. Times are just too hard for that.

But if you're right, and dealers don't want to do one-off imports, and we're not allowed go get things ourselves, then ISSF shooting is going to strangle. What dealer is going to get in a range of firearms from different manufacturers, all of which cost thousands apiece, just to hold them in stock for the next ISSF shooter looking to buy kit here? And worse, how do we go get batch-tested ammo from Eley or Lapua if we can't go get it ourselves with an article 7? ISSF's too small to make it economically viable for Irish dealers to cater to. They'd go out of business trying.

tonysopprano

From the DOJ website,

An individual importing a firearm or ammunition from a member state of the European Union:

a. Complete the application form Firearms Import/Export Application Form for Individuals (Microsoft Word – 51KB).
b. Attach to the application a copy of the valid firearms certificate for the firearm or ammunition to be imported.
c. In the case of firearms listed as category B in the EU Directive 91/477/EEC, a copy of a document entitled Article 7, which is issued by a superintendent of An Garda Síochána, must be attached to the application.
d. Forward the above to the Firearms and Explosives Unit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which will return to you a transfer document with which you can legally import the firearm or ammunition.

An individual importing a firearm or ammunition from a country which is not a member of the EU:

You should be in possession of a valid firearms certificate for a specified firearm or quantity of ammunition.
There is no legal requirement to obtain an importation licence from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

chem

EU Directive 91/477/EEC

3.4. Classification; acquisition and possession of firearms

(45) It is important to note that even if Member States are entitled to take more stringent
measures, these measures have to respect the rules of the Treaty, and in particular, the
rules of the internal market. Although Article 30 of the Treaty provides for a possible
derogation with regard to the free movement of goods on the basis of public safety, the
measures in question have to be necessary and proportionate to the objective pursued.

Sparks

An interesting point, but that's not from the EU directive Chem, it's from a report into the implementation of the directive in 2000.

chem

Sparks wrote: »

An interesting point, but that's not from the EU directive Chem, it's from a report into the implementation of the directive in 2000.

Darn:( Still it has to have some weight in EU law? And some kind of monoploly laws have to exist? No?

Sparks

The report wouldn't have weight, but what it mentions is correct. If we can't buy from other EU dealers, only Irish ones, that's pretty much a monopoly by definition. Someone would have to take the case though.

chem

I have a strange feeling that if a case was taken, the government would come up with a firearms registration tax. Like the VRT on cars.

lordarpad

Sparks wrote: »

The report wouldn't have weight, but what it mentions is correct. If we can't buy from other EU dealers, only Irish ones, that's pretty much a monopoly by definition. Someone would have to take the case though.

I am currently making these pioints to the Labour justice committee members

fish slapped

Tony, let me get this right :

I can import a rifle from the states once the paper work is right on their end by the dealer (FFL) on the strenght on a licence for the said gun.


Also I think I would not have to Pay duty if the Rifle was test fired and hence was secondhand or used.

Would this be right??

FS

tonysopprano

I'm no legal eagle, but what is there on the web site says you need article 7/11 from EU country but as long as you have the domestic FAC that acts as your import license from non-EU country.

fish slapped

mmmmh! :)

time to checkout dealers in Canada as they have no homeland security issues

rrpc

fish slapped wrote: »

mmmmh! :)

time to checkout dealers in Canada as they have no homeland security issues

I know a good few people who have bought target pistols in Switzerland. Some of them very close to me indeed

You don't have to go all the way across the Atlantic you know.

Having said that, there's a trend to stop postal services transporting firearms and the Swiss recently decided that only countries that border them will get postal deliveries.

cavan shooter

Has anyone met someone at the port and brought it that way (please I mean ensuring all legal avenues explored). Apply for license here, apply for license in the UK????

or are we still looking at import etc.

Grizzly 45

fish slapped wrote: »

Tony, let me get this right :

I can import a rifle from the states once the paper work is right on their end by the dealer (FFL) on the strenght on a licence for the said gun.


Also I think I would not have to Pay duty if the Rifle was test fired and hence was secondhand or used.

Would this be right??

FS

Pretty much correct.Apart from the duty side,and FFL side.It has to be exported from a FFL dealer that has State Dept clearence to export outisde CONUS.It can take a bit of convincing to prove "used" condition.;).Only other difficulty would be if you are buying a semi rifle or now a tactical/sniper rifle. They now fall under the International Trafficking Arms Regulation? [ITAR].You just sign an end user certificate,that this is for your use only,and you are not going to sell it on to some fellow in a turban,beard and Cammo jacket.Who has on his FAC an address in Tora Bora,Afghanistan.:).
This ITARS is now the reason a lot of folks here are having trouble getting rifle scopes,etc from the USA.Not Homeland Security!!!
ITARS is too easy to fall foul of as a gun dealer,exporter etc,and too ambigious and wide ranging for most companies to take the risk.

fish slapped

Cheers G.

It has 150 rounds through it, is a.308 so it is a secondhand buy :



Price $1100

foxshooter243

fish slapped wrote: »

Cheers G.

It has 150 rounds through it, is a.308 so it is a secondhand buy :



Price $1100

That is one handsome rifle FS;)

fish slapped

Had me watering at the mouth anyway

kakashka

Looks nice for sure FS but bipod position is bit suspect??
And what kinda hand would you need for that grip??
Any idea who makes this stock?

Grizzly 45

[

Any idea who makes this stock?

And what kinda hand would you need for that grip
[/QUOTE]

Big Foot perhaps??:D

kakashka

:D:D...but how did you know he shoots with his feet:D??

kakashka

As for reloading,would it be illegal to pull bullets and refill,sacrifice a round for every 12/15.
Or say you/gun like Lapua brass but cant get a specific bullet you/gun likes??
Swop Lapua bullet with bullet from another manufac.
Banannas?
Would owning reloading equipment be deemed to be illegal also?

It wasn't me!

Equipment wouldn't be illegal (though might cause you some hassle - know of cases where it has) but powder or primers would. Realistically, I wouldn't go poking the bear of justice until we get clarification via the rewritten explosives legislation.

kakashka

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Equipment wouldn't be illegal (though might cause you some hassle - know of cases where it has) but powder or primers would. Realistically, I wouldn't go poking the bear of justice until we get clarification via the rewritten explosives legislation.

Wont be poking/worst thing that could happen right now is for someone getting caught with reloading consumables,i can imagine the hullabulloo!!and would play nicely into the hands of all against.
But i was talking more about swopping components around IWM,would that be deemed illegal??

Grizzly 45

kakashka wrote: »

As for reloading,would it be illegal to pull bullets and refill,sacrifice a round for every 12/15.
Or say you/gun like Lapua brass but cant get a specific bullet you/gun likes??
Swop Lapua bullet with bullet from another manufac.
Banannas?
Would owning reloading equipment be deemed to be illegal also?

No ,you can do this one all right here.:eek:It was had out in a district court decision in Donegal,in the early 90s if I remember right.It was dismissed as not reloading,but customising your ammo.
At the moment it isnt illegal to own the equipment either.Just the powder and primers without the explosive liscenses.

CJhaughey

Well, it can still be done but you need to have a good RFD on the other side, They need to have what is called a single individual export license(SIEL) and the rest of the forms are exactly the same as they are here. There is an EC3 form which is the same as our Article 11 but the problem is that dealers cannot just sell you the gun and you rock up with a airline ticket and disappear off into the western sky, the dealer needs to provide proof of export to the BERR (used to be DTI) to get the firearm off his books.
The BERR/ECO now require all dealers to provide details of a Carrier who will ensure carriage of the gun in question to the end user.
So the only way you can import from the UK now from this side is to have a carrier bring it over. Cost is £170-210, which kind of nullifies the saving to be made.
Visitors permits won't allow the aquisition of firearms in the UK.
I have explored all avenues open to me but am just resigned to paying the Courier £170 now.

Sparks

Bad news for UK imports, that.
Mind you, I'd have more in mind things like egun.de and other places on the continent. But still, if this applies to all the UK (inc. NI) then that's going to be a major pain.

It wasn't me!

Get the UK RFD to courier it to the north, far less paperwork, costs about £45 via TNT. Then deal with the RFD in the north. That's what I'm doing at the moment. Bit complex, but it would be an enormous amount moreso and cost a small fortune to deal direct.

CJhaughey

It seems to be a major PITA.
The Brits when they make a law, follow it to the Nth degree.
I also asked about ammo apparently any expanding ammo is classed as Schedule 5 (prohibited) BUT if you are a stalker and have a schedule 1 license you get an automatic exemption for sched 5 ammo.
So FMJ ammo is OK but hunting ammo is not, very strange.

CJhaughey

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Get the UK RFD to courier it to the north, far less paperwork, costs about £45 via TNT. Then deal with the RFD in the north. That's what I'm doing at the moment. Bit complex, but it would be an enormous amount moreso and cost a small fortune to deal direct.

Thats why I said get a good RFD. My guy will get the EC3 license and deal with all the paperwork and only charge me what the courier costs.
The EC3/Art.11 is a standard EU document to notify firearm movements, here it is a simple matter, over there they have to prove End User etc, maybe it comes down to having an arms industry?

Link to guidance document.
http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file50843.pdf

CJhaughey

Update on my situation, I have the FAC and the Article 11 issued by the Irish authorities, and was waiting for a call from the courier.
Today I got a call from the UK RFD saying that apparently the Article 11 is not good enough and I need another document for importation?
I am at a loss as to what else I need, going by the DOJ website once I have my FAC and Art.11 I need nothing else.
Jebus this is nothing but a PITA and I strongly advise anyone thinking of importing from the UK to think again and buy from the continent.
I will have to give the firearms and explosives crowd a ring tomorrrow and find out what I need to satisfy the crowd of pedantic so and so's in the BERR.
Anyone have any advice as to what else I can do?