Wing Chun anti grappling techniques

Dermot Nolan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NDPxGwJgBI&mode=related&search=

I seen this on a thread on subfighter.com. Any thoughts on this approach to grappling on the streets?

yomchi

Dermot Nolan wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NDPxGwJgBI&mode=related&search=

I seen this on a thread on subfighter.com. Any thoughts on this approach to grappling on the streets?

Nice clip.
Although the training seems a little 'co-operative'. Working drills with compliant partners willing to roll and not put up any form of resistance. Its like pahase one of combative drilling. Does the resistance increase as the drills are learned? in other word are they properly pressure tested?

Dyr

two questions

1) what makes this wing chun/tsun/etc?

2) if you wind up being taken down like in the clips, is it really anti takedown?

john kavanagh

well i think everybody knows my point on 'training methods' so i'll leave that but if i may comment from a technical point of view...

the first technique looks like one 'borrowed' from BJJ however he is overlooking the most important part and thats bracing the far knee with your arm. this is to stop your opponent simply stepping forward to stop themselves rolling. if they did this technique with resistance they'd find that out themselves quickly. i teach this to day 1 beginners as part of our 12 week into course. i call it the 'ballyfermot headlock'

here it is demonstrated perfectly by Cesar Gracie

youtube

the defence against the 'rugby style' tackle would not work against a committed attacker as they have your hips - no committed attacker will 'shoot' in like that, grab your hips then freeze as you work your defence. watch any mma event to see this - or better yet any 'GJJ in Action' fights to see this type of defence fail again and again (and thats against guy who didn't have that great a shot!)
the correct responce is of course the 'sprawl'
here's a low level bjj white belt match which shows one guy sprawling on his opponent (at 45sec), getting the underhooks to get his own takedown.

didn't watch anymore after this.

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

the first technique looks like one 'borrowed' from BJJ however he is overlooking the most important part and thats bracing the far knee with your arm. this is to stop your opponent simply stepping forward to stop themselves rolling. if they did this technique with resistance they'd find that out themselves quickly. i teach this to day 1 beginners as part of our 12 week into course. i call it the 'ballyfermot headlock'

here it is demonstrated perfectly by Cesar Gracie

youtube

.

Looks good...only thing assuming this is for SD, Cesar is going to the ground in his escape... thats fine if its one on one....but in the street we can very rarely assume that.

Only problem with that, if Cesar is volunteering to go to the ground so quick in SD/Street....he might find some by standers (maybe attackers mates) decide to all jump in and put the "Ballyfermot Boots" into his skull. Then he is up the creek without a paddle.

Alot of fights in Ireland, happen around booze and pub/club venues, and its not unknow for uninvolved bystanders hyped up on drink, to throw the boots in to on the ground. I seen it first had quite a few times. 2 guys fighting, goes to ground, and someone else jumps in and starts booting.

I saw a massive enhlish guy, out of his head on something, attack a small little back guy outside Buskers in Temple bar one night for no reason. He was more or less killed the poor little black guy G n P style, when a bunch of hardlads from Tyrone jumped in about 6 of them and booted the english guy to an inch of his life. nasty nasty scene. but thats the sort of ****e that is happening out our streets (and that incident was years ago).

Roper

I think that the video is a prime example of ego really. Instead of trying to get an answer by saying "hey, I'll ask an expert",the Master/Sifu/Sensei says "Hey wait a minute, I'M an expert", and goes off and comes up with their own solutions. I've actually seen it first hand and trained some "takedown defence" that even I with my scaldy wrestling could take down now!

It might not seem like a bad idea, but when you think about it, its really stupid. Imagine a soccer club deciding they wanted to have a rugby team, and not getting a rugby coach in to teach them how to tackle. Same applies here, why would a stand-up based art not get a Judo/BJJ/Wrestling/Sambo coach if they wanted to do more ground or clinch.

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

Looks good...only thing assuming this is for SD, Cesar is going to the ground in his escape... thats fine if its one on one....but in the street we can very rarely assume that.

well i didn't intend to open up the whole street v sport can of worms, was just correcting a mistake on that particular technique....


however i can use this technique to escape the headlock then be back on my feet silva-stomping his head quicker than you can say 'multiple attackers with armed monkeys' this would be a case of "situation dictating tactics"

The Bored One

Roper wrote:

I think that the video is a prime example of ego really. Instead of trying to get an answer by saying "hey, I'll ask an expert",the Master/Sifu/Sensei says "Hey wait a minute, I'M an expert", and goes off and comes up with their own solutions. I've actually seen it first hand and trained some "takedown defence" that even I with my scaldy wrestling could take down now!

It might not seem like a bad idea, but when you think about it, its really stupid. Imagine a soccer club deciding they wanted to have a rugby team, and not getting a rugby coach in to teach them how to tackle. Same applies here, why would a stand-up based art not get a Judo/BJJ/Wrestling/Sambo coach if they wanted to do more ground or clinch.

I figure its mostly a marketing thing. By putting it together themselves, and giving it the label "anti-grappling" they can pat themleves on the back about their skills which are better than actually grappling the opponent, and never have to actually test it against someone who knows what they're doing.
They they all go home for tea and muffins.
A fairly good example of the "better than grappling" mentality can be seen in the comments that were left on the video.
They get to avoid the real work, and get to be elitist at the same time. Sells better than getting someone from a different style to kick their asses till they learn.

Millionaire

Roper wrote:

Same applies here, why would a stand-up based art not get a Judo/BJJ/Wrestling/Sambo coach if they wanted to do more ground or clinch.

Because the Grandmaster is God, and we must believe and obey at all times.
Bow to photos on the dojo wall of long dead oriental people, and bow to flags of foreign countrys with more reverence than we'd treat our own flag!

And all that Bollox!!!!

Plus Granmaster might miss out on a few grading fees, if we got an outside coach in! LOL!

john kavanagh

you're not suggesting its down to Ego and Money are you Gerry!! :eek:

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

however i can use this technique to escape the headlock then be back on my feet silva-stomping his head quicker than you can say 'multiple attackers with armed monkeys' this would be a case of "situation dictating tactics"

Ok!

and stick your fingers in his eyes, twist his ball bag, and bite him, before ya do the rest! alls fair in love and war!

Theres biting monkeys over here...could be a lethal weapon! not to mention Cobras... one bite and your dead in 5 mins!

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

you're not suggesting its down to Ego and Money are you Gerry!! :eek:

LOL! in MA never!!!!

I mean those 10th Dans...did really earn them Master grades ya know!!!!

I am confused...who graded General Choi from 1st dan to 9th!!!!

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

and stick your fingers in his eyes, twist his ball bag, and bite him, before ya do the rest!

well if thats your thing. personally its not for me but i have demo'd this (on resisting partners!) and can escape and get back to my feet without the whole 'mutilating my opponent' gig in a flash. if i was to get involved with the whole 'bite, eyeball, groin' thing i think it would actually slow down the process but each to their own

yomchi

I am confused...who graded General Choi from 1st dan to 9th!!!!

He graded himself believe it or not. Is it not common practice to appoint yourself grand master when you form your own style!!

John Pellegrini springs to mind :rolleyes:

Tim_Murphy

If you have your own style you have to be a 9th Dan, it stands to reason. If you are going on the notion that you founded your own style then its not like you can get anyone else to grade you.

dlofnep

Amazing how all these arts have grappling mysteriously in their arsenal when it was never addressed until 1993-now.

The Bored One

dlofnep wrote:

Amazing how all these arts have grappling mysteriously in their arsenal when it was never addressed until 1993-now.

What I think is classic is the number of people now claiming that there are ground-fighting applications hidden within the movements of kata. So much to give out about, so little time.

Dyr

dlofnep wrote:

Amazing how all these arts have grappling mysteriously in their arsenal when it was never addressed until 1993-now.

yeah ye gotta hate all those kenpo and tkd etc heads who jumped on the ould grappling bandwagon post 1993 ...

hmmm

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

That is a good question asked by Dermot and one which I feel is very relevant and all the replies so far have been pretty good.

I have not got time to respond now but will get back later with the Wing Tsun view and my own (which is not 'always' the same:) ).

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

Tempted as I am to give a comprehensive view (essay) on my thoughts, I will do everyone a favour and keep it short as I can tend to ramble on and go off on a tangient.

One of two things,

The chap in the video is called Victor Gutierrez and he a master level practitioner of Wing Tsun and the National Instructor for Spain and Portugal. Apparently he is also a very nice guy.

Post 1993 grappling bandwagon
Our organisation has been doing this stuff since the late 70's and in 1987 the head of the organisation in the western world wrote in one of his books about how good grapplers are and some possible Wing Tsun solutions against them. This was based on the fact that before he started WT he was a wrestler himself. Our Wing Tsun organisation has also cross trained with the Bulgarian National Wrestling Team who by their own admission stated that Wing Tsun helped them win the European championships a few years ago for the first time in yonks.

Grappling Experts?
Sifu Gutierrez is not claiming to be a "grappling" expert. Look at the Gracies, they will teach grappling against a kicker. They do not need to be expert kickers as they are practising BJJ against kickers. It is exactly the same for Sifu Gutierrez. He is demonstrating WT against grappling.

Clinch Work
This is an essential part of Wing Tsun. We have not borrowed/stolen it from anyone. While it can be benefical to cross train with other people as I do, we do not need to go to anyone to learn it.

Self-Defence and not a sport
For better or worse Wing Tsun is not a sport. I have recently become aware that in the UFC you are not allowed to strike your opponents spine. (Thanks 47martial man:D ) This is something that we would do in a self-defence situation if the opportunity arose. However how can you train for this? Yes, you can maybe do it gently but can you really pressure test it against a fully committed grappler. This only one example but highlights my point.

I know that in BJJ there is the argument that it is better to practise an art that can be 100% pressure tested rather than do one that can't be tested 100%. I don't necessarily agree with this. I feel it is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater but hey, thats only my opinion.

Wing Tsun Anti Grappling
The idea behind this is that if someone is trying to get a hold of you in a self-defence situation, if you have a spare limb (fist, elbow, knee, leg) then you should strike them. A bit like "Ground and Pound" without the ground.

If in Wing Tsun we trained for competitions then we would do more grappling. However the chances of us having to come up against a skilled grappler in "real life" are statiscally small. So we work on other aspects. Defence against kicks, punches, clinch, body language as well as possibilies against multiple attackers, weapons.

If we have to fight against a BJJ guy then is it a good idea to do BJJ. He is an expert who has put in thousands of hours. I could never hope to defeat him using a bit of BJJ as he will always be more advanced than him. It is better to use what I am good at.

Quote Victor Gutierrez
"Put yourself in situations like those described above with increasing difficulty. If you do not train these techniques, they do not work. So clear, so simple."

Paraphrase Paul Kelly: Muay Thai trainer
You cannot be good at everything. Better to work on what you are naturally good at. I will never be an expert at grappling but thats fine, I don't really have the interest. However by training in a "little" Muay Thai, I recognise that it has improved my Wing Tsun and in January I aim to do some BJJ which I feel will do the same. Apart from improving my Wing Tsun I might begin to fall in love with the art itself as I am beginning to do with the Muay Thai. Don't tell anyone.

Quote Bas Rutten
Submission by Position Seems like one of the really good things about grappling/BJJ is that it shows you how to move on the ground. Once you know how to move then you can strike or submit. For me names like WT, MT or BJJ become meaningless.

My own experience
I was in a situation where I was fighting three guys while on the ground, one of whom was grappling me. I did not try and grapple him back and concentrated on hitting the fvcker as hard as I could. Only when my shoulder became dislocated due to a kick by one of the other guys was he able to break free and the three of them ran off. My Wing Tsun Anti-Grappling worked fine that night, much better I feel than grappling would have.

Thanks for staying with me this long guys.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

john kavanagh

Michael O Leary wrote:

Our Wing Tsun organisation has also cross trained with the Bulgarian National Wrestling Team who by their own admission stated that Wing Tsun helped them win the European championships a few years ago for the first time in yonks

are you serious?

Bulgaria's list of olympic champions - look at the number in wrestling

european wrestling champions

to attribute any of this to them working out with some wing tsun guys is naive at best and incredibly disrespectful at worst. you should go down to hecules and work some clinch with Zhifco from Bulgaria, might open your eyes.

oh and where is this admission? no doubt its part of their national squad training now?

Michael O Leary wrote:

Grappling Experts?
Sifu Gutierrez is not claiming to be a "grappling" expert. Look at the Gracies, they will teach grappling against a kicker. They do not need to be expert kickers as they are practising BJJ against kickers. It is exactly the same for Sifu Gutierrez. He is demonstrating WT against grappling

well its not the same thing. there's plenty of footage of them making their grappling work against competent kickers with FULL resistance. this is another cheoreographed demo of WT being used against other (compliant) WT guys pretending to be grapplers. very different.

Michael O Leary wrote:

Self-Defence and not a sport
For better or worse Wing Tsun is not a sport. I have recently become aware that in the UFC you are not allowed to strike your opponents spine.

early UFC's allowed this and you can see this tactic been used - get a hold of UFC 1-3 and see for yourself. didn't make a bit of difference.

Michael O Leary wrote:

Seems like one of the really good things about grappling/BJJ is that it shows you how to move on the ground. Once you know how to move then you can strike or submit. For me names like WT, MT or BJJ become meaningless.

agree 100% - its only training methods that matter

Clive

Okay, I've watched the original video and read this thread.

In my opinion, the vid should have been subtitled: "when nerds attack"! (Harsh I know)

For "anti-grapplers", they seemed to be taken down constantly - at one point the instructor pulled guard and even pulled side control! Also, for someone who's "ukes" were completely compliant he seemed to need to hit them very hard to make his techniques work.

For the STREET, my question is always, " could you do that against a 19 stone rugby player who wanted to push your face in outside Reynards?". I didn't really see many people on that video who made me think thet could do that.

If someone came to the next submission grappling tournament, they'd see many better ideas of how not to get taken down!

Michael O Leary

Regarding Wing Tsun and the Bulgarian Wrestling Team this is what I have read from a Wing Tsun book called Blitz Defence.

The head of our Wing Tsun organisation, Keith Kernspecht is a visiting Professor for sporting sciences at the "National Sport Academy" in Sofia, one of the world's largest and most successful sports universities.

In this capacity he trains the coaches of the Bulgarian national and Olympic wrestling teams in techniques derived from WT, and according to the Bulgarian team managers (Jivko Vangelow, Prof. Margaritov, Georgi Markov)these significantly contributed to the fact that for the first time in 26 years, the Bulgarians were again able to win the European wrestling championship in 1999.

For more details go to www.wingtsun.com and type Bulgaria into the search facility. Maybe its untrue. If anyone finds anything to the contrary please feel free to come back to me.

Regards all,

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

Dyr

Just on a tangent seems as somebody mentioned bulgarian wrestlers. I saw a clip of a testimony from some ould lad who was a bulgarian national coach that some fella called prof lord kernspecht(sp) had modified wing chun so it could defeat wrestling. The only problem was that the clip of said national coach attacking the dude was pantomime quality

FiannaGym.com

It is a simple as...

Very good wrestlers train with other very good wreslters. And do they train hard? Heck yes! None the less, these wrestlers do get taken down.

So if training with the best takedown/sprawl experts, day in day out, doesn't always stop a take down how can anything else? If you want to defend take downs and you don't train wrestling your kidding yourself.

Lets look at it from another angle.

If your not as strong, powerful or agile as CroCops massive heavy weight frame (and who is?) with his K-1 level striking why do you think you could defend a takedown without training wrestling? He couldn't why could you?


Peace

john kavanagh

Michael O Leary wrote:

Regarding Wing Tsun and the Bulgarian Wrestling Team this is what I have read from a Wing Tsun book

i should've guessed

judomick

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.
Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

I read these in a book too!

Michael O Leary

Michael O Leary wrote:

Regarding Wing Tsun and the Bulgarian Wrestling Team this is what I have read from a Wing Tsun book called Blitz Defence.

The head of our Wing Tsun organisation, Keith Kernspecht is a visiting Professor for sporting sciences at the "National Sport Academy" in Sofia, one of the world's largest and most successful sports universities.

In this capacity he trains the coaches of the Bulgarian national and Olympic wrestling teams in techniques derived from WT, and according to the Bulgarian team managers (Jivko Vangelow, Prof. Margaritov, Georgi Markov)these significantly contributed to the fact that for the first time in 26 years, the Bulgarians were again able to win the European wrestling championship in 1999.

For more details go to www.wingtsun.com and type Bulgaria into the search facility. Maybe its untrue. If anyone finds anything to the contrary please feel free to come back to me.

Regards all,

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

If this is upsetting anyone and they can't/won' t/don't want to believe it then go and do a bit of research, come back to me with evidence to the contary. The European Wing Tsun Organisation tends to not publish things like the above that are easily refutable especially in this age of lawsuits.

But maybe I am just naive/being disrespectful.

Or maybe we are back to calling each other names. (sigh):(

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

FiannaGym.com

I'll ask Zhivko when I see him either tonight or next week.

Peace

Dyr

http://media.putfile.com/wt

Above is the WT dude overcoming a bulgarian national coach..ehhmm ...judge for yourselves

I remember on a forum a few years back people confirming that the wrestler fella was a national coach and even had an entry on wiki AFAIR

john kavanagh

Bambi wrote:

I remember on a forum a few years back people confirming that the wrestler fella was a national coach and even had an entry on wiki AFAIR

to anybody with even a small bit of wrestling experience its clear this is another cheorographed routine.

i'm not doubting this may very well be a wrestling coach. there are ways to persuade someone to say something they don't really believe, especially when they come from one of the poorest countries but thats another thing

i've done coaching courses with Zhifco up to a 'level 2' standard plus i've trained with him on and off for a number of years and he's never mentioned WC training for wrestling. i've seen plenty of WC training and as a sports coach i can not see how any of it would transfer to the wrestling mat

Michael O Leary

john kavanagh wrote:

there are ways to persuade someone to say something they don't really believe, especially when they come from one of the poorest countries

Yep, its a conspiricy.:rolleyes:

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

FiannaGym.com

No it couldn't be Michael, as we know from expereince, martial arts is chock full of moral upright, ethically sound people.

Yeah Wing Chun came from a blind nun and Frank Dux really did fight in Kumite.

Peace

john kavanagh

the counter used by The Lord there would be completely legal in MMA - funny how not one of them will jump in the ring and show it on a resisting oppponent??