Free public transportation proposed

Tabnabs

Here's a radical idea that European capitals are now seriously assessing in an attempt to control ever-worsening traffic in capital cities.

In Denmark
http://www.cphpost.dk/get/99119.html

and Norway
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1541723.ece

Chris_533976

Heh, if that was proposed here I wouldnt be able to find a font size large enough to post STRIKE in

OTK

Removing fares would speed up bus journeys. When journeys trake less time you can carry more people with the same number of vehicles/staff.

You could achieve the same result by using on-street ticket machines but DB are not interested or are incapable or can't organise the finance.

RuggieBear

i like the idea of free public transport.

Anyone have any estimates on what it would actually cost?

Victor

The risk is that anything free gets abused.

RuggieBear wrote:

Anyone have any estimates on what it would actually cost?

Existing costs, less cash handling costs, plus cost of extra services.

RuggieBear

Victor wrote:

Existing costs, less cash handling costs, plus cost of extra services.

which are? Coz i'm bloody clueless. 100million, 500million., 2 billion???:)

John R

RuggieBear wrote:

i like the idea of free public transport.

Anyone have any estimates on what it would actually cost?

Based on the 2005 figures, including the current state PSO payments it would be over €1 billion a year for the three CIE companies to provide the current level of service.

2005
Irish rail: Revenue: €222m, PSO: €97m (and €183m Infrastructure grant) Total:€483m
Bus Eireann: Revenue: €241m PSO: €25m Total: €263m
Dublin Bus: Revenue €181m PSO: €26m Total: €245m

RuggieBear

Thanks.

Billion a year... that's only going to go up.


A lot of benefit to society tho.

OTK

2005 DB revenue:
€181m from fares etc
€65m from govt grant

So €181m would do it.

RuggieBear

i don't see the bones of 200m a year for a free bus service in Dublin to be that bad a price

John R

RuggieBear wrote:

i don't see the bones of 200m a year for a free bus service in Dublin to be that bad a price

The figures would be very different if there was free travel though.

I would guess that to provide a decent bus service for the city and surrounds would cost around 500m a year. That would be with fares. Really I doubt anyone could guess at the effects on useage that free travel would have.

TBH it doesn't matter how much public money is thrown into operating costs because without much better traffic control and bus priority there would still be large numbers of bus routes with awful journey times.

Tabnabs

I think the idea would be to provide free travel at peak traffic hours only and limit it to Dublin county. So DB, most Darts and the Luas would be free and not IE or BE. In Belgium they have increased existing and introduced new road tolls which probably go a long way to covering the cost. A traffic congestion charge into Dublin city at peak hours would similarly offset most of the costs I would imagine.

Enigma365

So €181m would do it.

If buses were free, ridership would grow massively and extra services would be required, meaning it would be a lot more than 181m.

As for other public transport, a big problem with Darts and the Luas at the moment is lack of capacity at peak hours, so free transport then is a bad idea. Off-peak free luas and Dart could perhaps work though.

Incidently, in L.A. they introduced a $3(€2.50) all-day pass a few years back to boost public transport use. The pass covers you for travel on all subways,trams and busses all day long.

Blush_01

Dyflin wrote:

I think the idea would be to provide free travel at peak traffic hours only and limit it to Dublin county. So DB, most Darts and the Luas would be free and not IE or BE. In Belgium they have increased existing and introduced new road tolls which probably go a long way to covering the cost. A traffic congestion charge into Dublin city at peak hours would similarly offset most of the costs I would imagine.

To be honest, that leaves the majority of the country in a position where they're still stuck in traffic and paying extra for it, while the intra-Dublin commuter set go free. I don't see it as fair.

John R

Blush_01 wrote:

To be honest, that leaves the majority of the country in a position where they're still stuck in traffic and paying extra for it, while the intra-Dublin commuter set go free. I don't see it as fair.

Indeed, grossly unfair to give free travel only to a select group.

Free at certain times only would be insane. I can just imagine the arguements it would cause at 9.30 am as the staff close the gates and demand payment at train stations and bus drivers chasing passengers who get on and walk by. It was bad enough trying to get pensioners to pay up in peak time before.

jjbrien

I can see it working is Oslo becasue they have a conjestion charge to enter the urban city area which would pay for thier free public trasit. If Dublin was to bringthis in we could also bring in a conjestion charge to pay for the sceme.

bk

If you were even to double the €181 million to €350 million per year to cover increased usage for DB it would be still fairly cheap when you consider that the government spends in the region of €54 Billion per year as it is on everything.

Specially if you could cover the cost with congestion charging/tolling.

Maybe a good intermediate step would be a single rate (say €1) for all trips.

I also would see no problem with free travel being only in Dublin, yes people outside Dublin would whine a lot (I say this as a Corkonian living in Dublin) but what they so easily forget, everything is far more expensive in Dublin then outside Dublin and this would barely make up for the difference.

Also it is worth remembering that old age pensioners, some people with disabilities and long term unemployed already get free travel on all public services. So it isn't that revolutionary.

Victor

bk wrote:

...and long term unemployed already get free travel on all public services.

O rly?

bk

Victor wrote:

O rly?

You are right, just checked oasis.gov.ie and I can only find mention of free travel for OAPs and certain disabilities.

However the point still stands as OAPs make up a significant percentage of the population.

El Stuntman

this thread's title is somewhat misleading as thee is no such thing as 'free' public transport, it still has to be paid for

I'd prefer to see car owners taxed to the gills and yearly public transport ticket holders given a tax credit equal to 50% of the cost of the ticket

fantasy stuff however as politicians would never have the balls to implement

CiaranC

To be honest, if the current infrastructure was made free tomorrow I still wouldnt use it.

Tabnabs

El Stuntman wrote:

I'd prefer to see car owners taxed to the gills and yearly public transport ticket holders given a tax credit equal to 50% of the cost of the ticket

I think that's a pretty foolish statement TBH. Car owners are already massively taxed and still people need to get to work.

I spent many long years waiting in the cold and wet for an overcrowded bus to turn up and to have to stand for the hour long journey home. Public transport policies are implemented by unimaginative pen pushers. Take a look at the occupancy rates of the LUAS, DART and DB at peak hours.

In a word, public transport within Dublin SUCKS!

I lived in Cork for a few years and their traffic is a mild inconvenience compared to Dublin. So Dublin is really the only area which requires this idea currently.

El Stuntman

Dyflin wrote:

I think that's a pretty foolish statement TBH. Car owners are already massively taxed and still people need to get to work. .

not when you consider the cost of carbon credits

a friend of mine lives in Brussels and gets a tax credit for being a cyclist - progressive stuff!!

Victor

Dyflin wrote:

I think that's a pretty foolish statement TBH. Car owners are already massively taxed and still people need to get to work.

Not taxed enough.

Take a look at the occupancy rates of the LUAS, DART and DB at peak hours. In a word, public transport within Dublin SUCKS!

If it sucks, why do so many people use it?

rubadub

Yes, tax the motorists with tolls on the same routes, this is more fair to people outside dublin and people who do not use any transport at all. Is it london where they charge you to enter the city during the day?
People are moaning about being taxed too much, which shows it is a good incentive to avoid it. Once all these SISA accounts are cashed in there will be a huge amount of new cars on the road, the 2nd hand market will also drop out so many people who could not afford cars will be getting them.

I would not like to be in a car seeing people on a bus travelling past me, knowing that I paid for them. The bus service is bad, but partly due to people refusing to use and and being in the cars, delaying the bus, catch 22. I think it is terrible when people refuse to let buses pull out in traffic, the same person will let the odd car out, while giving a bus way is the equivalent of letting 100 cars pull out in front of you.

Dublin bus need to reduce the cost of prepaid tickets more, to the point where it would be totally foolish not to have one ready.

It should not be free only at certain times, on car free days they do the opposite, free on off peak times, as an incentive to fill the buses more on the off peak times. Maybe they should charge a bit more on peak times at the moment. I often see buses flying by bustops full of people.

Hal1

RuggieBear wrote:

i don't see the bones of 200m a year for a free bus service in Dublin to be that bad a price

Thats a small price to pay compared with the amount they spend each year on roadworks and the new motorway schemes set to contine until 2012 or something ridiculous like that. :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

Hal1 wrote:

Thats a small price to pay compared with the amount they spend each year on roadworks and the new motorway schemes set to contine until 2012 or something ridiculous like that. :rolleyes:

Didn't someone say that M50 congestion alone costs a billion a year ?

Boston

Victor wrote:

Not taxed enough.
If it sucks, why do so many people use it?

No choice. I wouldn't like to depend on dublin public transport, least of all the Luas. One of the cannons of taxation is that it should be fair, Car owner's shouldn't be tax anymore then is fair, nor should people be forced onto an allready over crowded public transport system.

You say, why do they use it if it sucks, well why do people pay what they are paying for cars, and sit in traffic the way they do, if it didn't suck.


As for Free public transport, this would lead to existing services being cut and underfunded, thus be of no real benefit to the majority. It's not the cost of public transport that puts people off (well maybe on some services) , it's the need for a reliable comfortable service.