So what would you do here then???

BigCityBanker

ok €250 MTT - we are down to the last 17. I have c.28-30k and I am about 2/3k above average. Blinds are 1000/2000 (I think) with a running ante of 100 (I think)

I am sitting at a weak table but in a tough position - when I am on the button Flushdraw is SB and Joe O'Neill is BB. The rest - I am not worried about their poker abilites - rather thier lack of.

Im in the BB and i get KJo (no spades). 4 limpers and I check my option.

Flop comes As Qh 10s...

I have flopped the nuts and I am first to act. At this stage I give a little think - I am obviously worried about the flushdraw and specifically worried about the MP limper - he has called silly bets on all sorts of draws and has c.50k in play after getting all in behind and luckboxing his way to his current position.

Anyway - I decide to bet 3.5k (silly kind of bet but I had it in my hand when the flop came down) and push on a non scary turn. Everyone calls... My rationale for my flop play was that I felt MP Limper would call an all in with a flushdraw on the flop but not on the turn. I have sat for a number of hours and dodged some bullets to get here - I feel at this stage I have played very solid and made one big call early for my stack which kept me in play when i was all in all pretty card dead. At this stage I did not want to go out to a donkey call. I also feel I could do with a few more chips - If my plan comes off I am going to be in a more comfortable position than most.

Questions...
1. Should I have raised preflop with KJ?
2. How do you like my flop play?
3. In general how do you like my train of thought in this hand?

comments please.

ty.

(flushdraw and others - no spoilers please)

Hectorjelly

BigCityBanker wrote:

Questions...
1. Should I have raised preflop with KJ?
2. How do you like my flop play?
3. In general how do you like my train of thought in this hand?

1 You could push preflop with the KJ, but it definitely wouldnt be standard. I would be happy to just check and see the flop. If you had less chips pushing would be better

2 Pretty bad. I think you have two options, a nearly pot sized bet, or checking with the intention of raising. Betting out less than 2 blinds into a pot of 6 is bad play, especially with a flush draw there.

3 I think a lot of people get far too caught up in irrelevant issues whilst playing poker, especially tournament poker (myself included). Not wanting to go out on a donkey call is not a strategy that is going to win you any extra money; but it could lose you some. Just play each hand as well as its possible to and you will do well.

Just as an aside, did you read what I wrote in a recent thread about your hand against the Chief?

mdwexford

1. i would have checked

2. i agree with hj, a bet of about 7-8k or check raise, my personal preference being the latter

a 3.5k bet is pointless imo

Jaden

I'd be inclined to bet the pot here. CRAI is good too, but I myself never try to get too clever with hands like this at the sharp end of a MTT.

There's already 8K in the pot, so it might be worth taking down right now if you're worried about the FD. Mind you that's just a little MUTBS.

The 3.5K bet did nothing but leak chips.

ianmc38

1. Raising or checking preflop are both fine. As HJ said, pushing preflop is definitely a viable option. There's 10000 plus antes in there already which are more than 1/3rd of your stack. Noone has shown strength in the hand and you can cripple anyone if they call and lose.

2. The flop bet is horrific. Was it a weak lead hoping to get raised or was it just a mystical number that arrived in your head? I much prefer a strong lead or even a crai as that flop is bound to have hit someone. The table dynamics and general aggression would be the deciding factors for me on the best line to take.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

DeadParrot

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Checking a weak hand like KJ on the big blind is fine. You will have to play it out of position post flop and it is a hand with high reverse implied odds.

But glowing moons and hungry bears - you've flopped the nuts!! CRAI is a decent line. I would prefer a push though as it disguises the strength of your hand and could force the flush draw to fold and an AJ / A10 to come along for the ride. As Ian has said, if you take it down then you have improved your stack by 9,000 - not a bad result.

The bet of 3500 is awful. But I'm sure you realise this.

Wot he said.

Espt the flop bet, was that bet gonna put a flush draw out of the hand? Or were you hoping to get a cheap turn with the nuts/A re-raise you could push on???
Weird play

BigCityBanker

As posted above I didnt really want a lunatic with a flush draw to call an all in on the flop with 2 streets to go. I was I suppose at the time trying to get as many chips as I thought possible by putting out a weak looking bet and then pushing a non spade turn. I kinda felt at the time my push would look as desperation following my bad flop bet and get called by two pair, etc..

I will post more details on the hand later.

BTW first prize was 4.5k, 2nd and 3rd were worth getting also - I was trying to "build for the future" at this point.

Hector - I did read your post re: chief hand. I think it was on a thread about playing a lag and specifically about calling a bet of 30 with 1010 with a KQ on the board. I had asked for the rationale from fuzzbox (who said he would call every time) as I felt I couldnt have brought myself to call that specific bet. I later read back over the OP and realised the lag had bet 30 into a pot of 17 - in which instance id be calling it myself as to overbet the pot would make no sense.

bops

Cool I'm not banned yet!!!

Check the flop everytime

CRAI if needs be

I'd always rather see a blank turn here first - flopping the nuts nearly always gets you in trouble!! (I suffer badly from MUTBS)

Betting 3.5k - this only shows the table that you have an interest in this hand...
...then again maybe (just maybe) this may actually be a good thing and get you to see a cheap turn card. It may stop someone from pushing here with a draw. I know that it's a good thing if someone pushes here with a draw, but i'd rather not commit my tourney life with 2 cards to come

gl (hopefully)

azzeretti

BigCityBanker wrote:

ok €250 MTT - we are down to the last 17. I have c.28-30k and I am about 2/3k above average. Blinds are 1000/2000 (I think) with a running ante of 100 (I think)

I am sitting at a weak table but in a tough position - when I am on the button Flushdraw is SB and Joe O'Neill is BB. The rest - I am not worried about their poker abilites - rather thier lack of.

Im in the BB and i get KJo (no spades). 4 limpers and I check my option.

Flop comes As Qh 10s...

I have flopped the nuts and I am first to act. At this stage I give a little think - I am obviously worried about the flushdraw and specifically worried about the MP limper - he has called silly bets on all sorts of draws and has c.50k in play after getting all in behind and luckboxing his way to his current position.

Anyway - I decide to bet 3.5k (silly kind of bet but I had it in my hand when the flop came down) and push on a non scary turn. Everyone calls... My rationale for my flop play was that I felt MP Limper would call an all in with a flushdraw on the flop but not on the turn. I have sat for a number of hours and dodged some bullets to get here - I feel at this stage I have played very solid and made one big call early for my stack which kept me in play when i was all in all pretty card dead. At this stage I did not want to go out to a donkey call. I also feel I could do with a few more chips - If my plan comes off I am going to be in a more comfortable position than most.

Questions...
1. Should I have raised preflop with KJ?
2. How do you like my flop play?
3. In general how do you like my train of thought in this hand?

comments please.

ty.

(flushdraw and others - no spoilers please)

I find it a little strange to consider raisinig with this hand in this position, creating a pot and out of position. There is an argument for pushing but you never say the chip count of the other 4 limpers. Your flop bet, as already said, is a little weak. You are pretty much enticing a flush draw call here. Because of your position I think check-raising is the best here, but if you are going to bet, lead with a good pot sized bet (maybe even overbet if there are any short stacked players coming after you).

Your thought process is a little weak too. Firstly, you are creating odds for a flush draw, and secondly, a flush draw will have the same chance of hitting from the flop to turn as the turn to river, which doesn't make any difference in this case to the MP limper.

azzeretti

bops wrote:

It may stop someone from pushing here with a draw.

Don't you want someone to push on a draw, in this instance?

BigCityBanker

azzeretti wrote:

a flush draw will have the same chance of hitting from the flop to turn as the turn to river, which doesn't make any difference in this case to the MP limper.

Can you explain further please?

bops

azzeretti wrote:

Don't you want someone to push on a draw, in this instance?

read the next line

El Stuntman

bops the next line is nonsense

you have to be prepared to put your tourney life on the line when you are in front

bops

El Stuntman wrote:

bops the next line is nonsense

you have to be prepared to put your tourney life on the line when you are in front

prepared - yes of course

all i'm trying to say is i'd rather see a blank turn first

The main reason for people going bust in a tourney is from committing too soon

Sense!!!!

bops

I think you're only trying to get me started...

well i'm way too happy today!!!!

Kissey Kissey

El Stuntman

bops wrote:

I think you're only trying to get me started...

well i'm way too happy today!!!!

Kissey Kissey

it was worth a try

you're obv on the happy drugs today

azzeretti

BigCityBanker wrote:

Can you explain further please?

All I was pointing out was that the chance of player X hitting his flush from the Flop to the Turn is almost the same as it would be from the Turn to the River. The fact that you are creating the odds makes it even easier for an player in this situation to call instantly.
If a player is chasing and calls your 3.5K bet, then he is getting the same odds of hitting the river. Depending on the stacks perflop, he may ignore the pot odds and call your push.

'Tis all!

Hitman Actual

BigCityBanker wrote:

Can you explain further please?

It's about 4/1 for the flush to hit on the turn, and then another 4/1 to hit on the river. Giving the combined 2/1 that everyone knows for both cards. So betting 3.5K into an 11K pot means that someone isn't making a terrible mistake by just calling your flop bet.

Iceman78

I think the flop bet is horrible which im sure you knew as you soon as you bet.

Having thought about this for a while, i think you best move here would depend on how you had been playing during the tourney. If you had been playing aggressive and betting draws, a push would be a great move here as it would look like a flush draw or maybe a pair and straight draw.

If you have been playing a bit more conservatively, i think a CRAI is your best move, im sure that someone will bet at this flop but id say they will find it hard to call a push and the pot should be big enough to take down at this stage.

I dont like your take at all bops about not putting your tourney life at risk with 2 cards to come, he has flopped the nuts and wants to get as many chips as possible in now without giving any free cards. There is still a long way to go to get to the decent prizes and you have got to build a stack.

fuzzbox

Jaden wrote:

The 3.5K bet did nothing but leak chips.

I assure you that any bet, when you have the nuts does not leak chips

Flushdraw

Iceman78 wrote:

Having thought about this for a while, i think you best move here would depend on how you had been playing during the tourney.

Unfortuantely for Noel, he had a very tough spot. He had to play pretty tight because if he raised from the button, he had to get through mine and joe's blinds, which we werent giving up too easy plus we were all after the easy blinds so his steals had to go through us (myself and Joe were also chip leaders at the table)

The villian in question was pretty LAG, but not good. Dont think pot odds, outs etc came into much of his play. He seemed to be blinded by his own hand, and couldnt let go of much. I had a feeling Noel flopped the nuts on that hand because of the constapated look on his face when he didnt know how to play it against such a player! Not sure if rounders123 was at the table for this hand aswel

Goodluck2me

the 3.5K bet meant he got 14K extra into the pot on the turn, you didnt tell us what the turn was btw.... if its a non-spade, non-pair then you win a bigger pot than if you CRAI, albeit with higher risk. i dotn think its the best play but its certianly better than Checking and having it checked the whole way around.

BigCityBanker

As Tony was at the table I think he has assessed the situation as I saw it at the time. (btw Rounders was on the other table at this point)

My push or CRAI would have 2 of the other 4 players laying down for sure (Joe & Tony) on the flop. The lag in MP would imo have assumed it was normal play to put his chips across the line on a draw - after all that is how he accumulated them in the first place, I wasnt worried about player in LP - I understand I was ahead and I shouldnt be afraid of getting my chips across the line but I could lay down to a spade turn and still be able to play poker with my remaining chips.

My specific thought process was kinda as follows.

• I have nuts
• I want chips
• I dont want a suckout to a gimp on a flushdraw
• I put in an affordable bet (too affordable maybe) and get more chips in middle
• I push non spade turn and expect to take down pot as whilst MP is lag donkey he unlikely to call c.20k with only the river to come if he is drawing to a flush.

Now as it happens the turn was a non spade J. Ok i wasnt overly impressed as anybody holding a King was sharing the pot with me. I pushed and MP Donkey insta calls. I ask if we are splitting it and he declares not yet... to my horror he has K4 spades and is freerolling to a flush which he duly catches when a spade arives on the river and i go outside to kick the livin fcuk out of my car for not pushing the flop.

Anyway - at that point in time I felt my line of play was correct for the situation. I waited a while to post it here for comments as I was interested on other opinions. If you make a donkey play and get away with it you can suddenly believe that it was a great play. I wasnt all that sure that I wouldnt repeat the way I played the hand again if the opportunity arose so I was looking for the consensus on this.

Finally was there any reason I should not have pushed the turn once the J arrived?

ty.

bops

HI BCB

I cant really see how you could have ever won the hand!!

You push/CRAI the flop - I'd reckon DonkeyBoy would call you - sure he has a gutshot str8 draw and a 4 high FD !!! eee awwwhh!!
You check the turn - He'll probably bet it anyway & you'll have to call for a split - I can't see him checking it down.

Most people (always) disagree with me, put I think checking the flop or a small bet (half pot) are the right plays and wait for a non spade turn before moving - as you played it

It was just ul - it's as simple as that!!

To answer your last question - I'd push the turn - I'd rather push it than have to call a push here - 4/5 times you will win/split the pot

ul again m8