remote car starters......asswipes !

galwaytt

...I mean, it's not as if we're in Singapore, or Atlanta, with 100+ deg and 100% RH, so we don't need to remote start the cars............so why are people doing it? And how ? ( I mean, with out the safety interlocks, that is....)

Reason is, my brother had his car wrecked by an asswipe with a Civic yesterday over this...............

Civic owner remote starts his car............but it's in gear, and shoots across a car park and into l.h. rear door of his car. Eur 1300 in damage, and the Civic is 3" shorter too......

Idiot. Imagine if it'd been Tesco car park, and woman/kids/trolley the thing hit?

Just a thought.....if you've got one of these things, and your car is manual..........plug it OUT !

JohnCleary

I have one of these in my car, except I have a switch attached to the gearstick so if she's not in neutral the relay won't make contact

Sorry about your brothers car but LOL @ the Civic

mukki

that class, might look into getting that in my car, it'd be great on a frosty morning

thanks galwaytt

JohnCleary

They're great. I love mine, only really use it in the winter though.

IMO theyre good for your engine. Start your car 3-4 min before you get into it, the oil will have had a chance to warm up a bit, also heats up the car so youre not freezing getting into the damn thing Oh and if you leave your heater setting to windscreen, it'll defrost your windscreen for you!

techguy

where would one buy one of these?? Would make a great x-mas pressi but I have the feeling they would be way too much..would the be complicated to install??

fletch

JohnCleary wrote:

IMO theyre good for your engine.

I would disagree...an engine heats up quicker when your driving therefor when it's idling it heats up slower and is more prone to damage

Drax

Sounds like a load of bollox to me. Another item to add to the lazy bástards wish list. :rolleyes:

AMurphy

galwaytt wrote:

........
Reason is, my brother had his car wrecked by an asswipe with a Civic yesterday over this..............

Just a thought.....if you've got one of these things, and your car is manual..........plug it OUT !

No Neutral safety switch, and/or park brake switch, what do you expect?. sorry, but it is avoidable.

maidhc

Humm...

My 1968 Ford 4000 tractor has a safety switch to prevent it being started in gear.

I always idle my car for a minute or so every morning, but no longer. It is uncooperative when cold anyway so I drive it very lightly until it warms up.

AMurphy

so has my 89 truck. Simple affairs and very useful, EXCEPT when you need to started motor to move a vehicle out of hte way.

Archeron

galwaytt wrote:

Reason is, my brother had his car wrecked by an asswipe with a Civic yesterday over this...............

Civic owner remote starts his car............but it's in gear, and shoots across a car park and into l.h. rear door of his car. Eur 1300 in damage, and the Civic is 3" shorter too......

Wow. I never even heard of these. Has anyone seen Stephen Kings "Christine"??

ToxicPaddy

I heard of these a long time ago. A mate used to work for an auto factors and had all of these gadgets installed on his car and parked it outside using it as a demo model.

By his own admission, he only used it on cold mornings to heat the car up before he got into it and it was only an expensive toy with no real usefulness.

Tox

galwaytt

...btw, as mentioned about cold mornings....in Germany it's illegal to warm the car up for a period, before driving off.............emissions etc.

'sfunny, you're not allowed wash your car on the street, either..........

whatever the merits about having them - an incompetent installation with no safety features not only raises the spectre of the types of accident my brother had, or potentially could have - with people involved - it'd be interesting to see if your ins co would cover it, seeing as your car is no longer homologated................

Gerry

Owners manual for my car says not to let it idle to warm up, to drive away as soon as its started, even in freezing cold weather. This makes sense, as it will get it up to temp quicker. Just drive gently for the first bit, don't rev it too much, don't boost, but for gods sake, don't labour it either, as thats even worse . ( That shaking and rattling is actually bearings rattling, even worse with cold oil ). Really pisses me off that most Irish drivers are afraid to rev their car, but will happily try to drive at 15mph in 4th gear up a hill, through pure ignorance.

5500

Must have been a cheap ass piece of kit fitted,ebay is full of them for next to nothing.There normally fitted with handbrake switch ie if the handbrake is pulled the starter wont engage.

Ive the option of adding one onto my clifford but i wouldnt.It means installing a transponder(the top of a chipped key) in the car to fool the ecu into thinking the keys in the ignition so it will unmobilise.

Grand on cars with no immobilisors from factory but your effectivly removing a layer of security by adding one if you have an immobilisor from factory

JohnCleary

eireal wrote:

Must have been a cheap ass piece of kit fitted,ebay is full of them for next to nothing.There normally fitted with handbrake switch ie if the handbrake is pulled the starter wont engage.

Ive the option of adding one onto my clifford but i wouldnt.It means installing a transponder(the top of a chipped key) in the car to fool the ecu into thinking the keys in the ignition so it will unmobilise.

Grand on cars with no immobilisors from factory but your effectivly removing a layer of security by adding one if you have an immobilisor from factory

My one has an immoboliser with it, mind you it's not one of the sh1tty eBay ones

Owen

fletch wrote:

I would disagree...an engine heats up quicker when your driving therefor when it's idling it heats up slower and is more prone to damage

It's better to let an engine idle after startup. Oil sinks to the sump overnight, if you drive it straight away, the oil pump has little or no time to scavenge oil from the sump and lift it to the cams. No lubrication = scoring of the cams/premature wear of engine components.*

On this subject, I came across a company making a heating element for the engine itself that plumbs in through the frost plug blank on most cylinder blocks. You set it to a certain time, and it heats the engine without running it. Of course, the obvious answer to all of this is if your car has the option, buy a Winter Pack (Heated Seats, Windscreen, Mirrors, Washer Jets) - those options aren't expensive anymore.

*this is for most engines, and may not be applicable to yours.

sk8board

remote starters are pretty much standard on all new cars in Dubai these days. When its 40deg in the early morning, and heading towards 50deg throughout the day, its great to have the car lovely and cool while your having your cornflakes
sometimes the door handles are so hot you'd wonder why they didn't melt.

franksm

ned78 wrote:

On this subject, I came across a company making a heating element for the engine itself that plumbs in through the frost plug blank on most cylinder blocks. You set it to a certain time, and it heats the engine without running it.

Do yo have a URL for that ? The Scandinavians fit them to their cars so that they're all toasty before the own sets off in the morning. Bit like a kettle element that sits in the engine block heating the coolant like you say. Apart from making sure the water is hot enough for the heater it's also healthier for the engine. No more cold starts as such.

Owen

http://www.defa.com

MercMad

All of thoise kits come with a safety circuit. Some wally obviously fitted it !!

Glad nobody was hurt !!

Seth Brundle

Presumably this was not OEM and also not declared to their insurance company!

ned78 wrote:

It's better to let an engine idle after startup. Oil sinks to the sump overnight, if you drive it straight away, the oil pump has little or no time to scavenge oil from the sump and lift it to the cams. No lubrication = scoring of the cams/premature wear of engine components.*

source?

mike65

When starting a cold engine its best to move off straight away keeping revs to below about 2500 rpm until a couple of mins has passed. This is of course utterly alien behaviour for some!

Mike.

MarkR

I would not use a remote car start system to wipe my bottom.

It's not the gears fault, it's the owner and probably the installer.

JohnCleary

MarkR wrote:

I would not use a remote car start system to wipe my bottom.

It's not the gears fault, it's the owner and probably the installer.

Of course you wouldn't, you'd use toilet paper ya spanner

louie

I have to say they are very good for your engine in cold morning.
I also love mine cause I warm the car up before bringing the kids to school.
The way the system work is like this (not all models, only the one that we use):

If the car is automatic - this is very safe as the car has to be in neutral or parking. Also the handbrake has to be up.

If the car is manual - The owner has to engage the remote start future as follows:
the car has to be driven for least 5 min. with the handbrake down and doors closed.
when you get at the destination, first you need to pull the handbrake up, then release clutch slowly to make sure the car is not in gear, then turn ignition off and remove the keys. At this stage the alarm will keep the engine running.
Open the door, get out of the car and close it. When the door is closed the alarm shut down the engine. At this stage the remote start is engaged and you can activate it by remote.
If by any chance you forgot something in the car and get back to it later, by turning the alarm off and open the door, the remote start will automatically be turned-off for security reasons, just in case by mistake you engaged the gears.

Owen

kbannon wrote:

source?

You're kidding right? This is basic mechanics. A wet sump based engine will prematurely wear cam driven components if oil doesn't get up to them in time. It's also what we do in the Airport where I fly, let the oil get up from the sump to the cams before doing the power checks and flying.

galwaytt

ned78 wrote:

You're kidding right? This is basic mechanics. A wet sump based engine will prematurely wear cam driven components if oil doesn't get up to them in time. It's also what we do in the Airport where I fly, let the oil get up from the sump to the cams before doing the power checks and flying.

You mean it WAS basic mechanics, back when engines were slower reving, with bigger clearances, and lower performance. Oh, and carbs.

Modern engines do not need to be warmed before use. Moderate use until suitable temp, yes, but not warmed up. Left idling, it's probably running a bit rich, which, you could argue, is causing premature wear, and you're certainly wasting fuel.......and emmissions are higher too.

If engines are not retaining oil in the galleries from previous running, then it's immediately obvious - ticking tappets/timing chains - the usual. And modern oils are inherently designed to be multi-temp, to endure the hard wipe-off on cold components on start up. If your oil system takes time to prime it's either old, or faulty.

Owen

galwaytt wrote:

Modern engines do not need to be warmed before use. Moderate use until suitable temp, yes, but not warmed up.

I work for a Motor Dealer, and a high tech based one at that. And I work on my own engines too. I've experience of Carb based, and EFI based engines. As someone mechanically inclined, and with a mechanical background, I would say it's good practise for all engines to be warmed up. Yes an engine can drive straight off, but it's better overall to let it run, even for 30 seconds. No one claimed at any stage that a car couldn't be driven straight off, it's just those with Mechanical Sympathy prefer to leave the car alone for the first 30 seconds (It normally takes me this long to turn the radio on and decide which station to listen to anyway) ... it's not a long length of time.

For example, if you drive straight off in an R50 MINI Cooper, you run the risk of damaging the Power Steering, as the mechanical based Steering Pump hasn't had the chance to get the hydraulic fluid flowing for the first 3 seconds.

galwaytt wrote:

Left idling, it's probably running a bit rich, which, you could argue, is causing premature wear, and you're certainly wasting fuel.......and emmissions are higher too.

You make mention of engines storing oil in the Galleries ... some do, but what happens if your engine is one of the ones that lets the oil drain to the sump so you can get a correct dipstick reading? Refer to my first post then that says that my argument refers to a lot of engines, but not all.

Most 'modern engines' as you call them, have lambda sensors to automatically remap based on the lamda sensors, and other factors such as humidity, rpm, barometric pressure to ensure running rich doesn't happen. The only engine that should run rich is a carb based engine, and a badly tuned one at that - perhaps a really crappy fuel injected one too! Wasting fuel? Isn't that what driving is all about

ninty9er

Don't most new cars require the clutch to be depressed, I know the new Focus and Yaris NG require it to be done anyway, have heard the Laguna requires it be done too. This would really render an auto starters useless

mukki

what are you all on about engine damage, sure your shiny new car will be a cube in 10 years, long before engine wear will be a problem, i'd just want it so that the inside of the car will be warm for me and the windows de-misted and de-frosted

Owen

ninty9er wrote:

Don't most new cars require the clutch to be depressed, I know the new Focus and Yaris NG require it to be done anyway, have heard the Laguna requires it be done too. This would really render an auto starters useless

Very well spotted. In fact the newer BMW's and MINIs now require the same thing. And they also require the key to be present in the vehicle (Immobiliser circuit is present in the key). So technically, you'll need a method of bypassing the switch in the Clutch Master Cylinder, key present, and the ignition also bypassed. Sounds like warranty null and void - but I'm guessing the majority of these fleabay installation kits are installed on cars out of warranty/without immobilisers & alarms.

JohnCleary

ned78 wrote:

Very well spotted. In fact the newer BMW's and MINIs now require the same thing. And they also require the key to be present in the vehicle (Immobiliser circuit is present in the key). So technically, you'll need a method of bypassing the switch in the Clutch Master Cylinder, key present, and the ignition also bypassed. Sounds like warranty null and void - but I'm guessing the majority of these fleabay installation kits are installed on cars out of warranty/without immobilisers & alarms.

I'd hardly compare a Clifford system with a fleabay kit... but yes, you're not gonna have a system like this installed on a top notch BMW etc...

Personally I wouldn't pay someone to install this kit for me, I only did as a little project for myself, kept me busy for a few hours and it scares the cr4p out of some people in car parks

Fratton Fred

JohnCleary wrote:

Personally I wouldn't pay someone to install this kit for me, I only did as a little project for myself, kept me busy for a few hours and it scares the cr4p out of some people in car parks

especially when it flies accross the car park and into someone elses car??

I would guess that 90% of these are fitted to civics with big boy exhausts and black windows, you know, the ones you have to drive whilst sitting at 45% :rolleyes:

MercMad

Whilst were are all being pedantic here................surely it would be more comfortable to sit at 45 degrees !!

DublinDilbert

You can pick up such systems in canada from about €80 upwards...

The problem with fitting these to most modern cars is that you need to by-pass the imobiliser to get them to work....

I did hear of a couple being killed by one while they were sleeping! their car was in their garage, and some how it started up, and the exhaust was pumped around the house by the forced air heating system, and they died.

( On a slightly more positive note, i have one of these systems brand new in a box at home if anyone wants it )

maidhc

mukki wrote:

what are you all on about engine damage, sure your shiny new car will be a cube in 10 years, long before engine wear will be a problem, i'd just want it so that the inside of the car will be warm for me and the windows de-misted and de-frosted

Very true.

If you have a turbocharged engine (even a modern one) you really should let it idle for 60 seconds or so. Turbos blowing before your car being in a cube is not unheard of.

Gerry

ned78 wrote:

I work for a Motor Dealer, and a high tech based one at that. And I work on my own engines too. I've experience of Carb based, and EFI based engines. As someone mechanically inclined, and with a mechanical background, I would say it's good practise for all engines to be warmed up. Yes an engine can drive straight off, but it's better overall to let it run, even for 30 seconds. No one claimed at any stage that a car couldn't be driven straight off, it's just those with Mechanical Sympathy prefer to leave the car alone for the first 30 seconds (It normally takes me this long to turn the radio on and decide which station to listen to anyway) ... it's not a long length of time.

For example, if you drive straight off in an R50 MINI Cooper, you run the risk of damaging the Power Steering, as the mechanical based Steering Pump hasn't had the chance to get the hydraulic fluid flowing for the first 3 seconds.



You make mention of engines storing oil in the Galleries ... some do, but what happens if your engine is one of the ones that lets the oil drain to the sump so you can get a correct dipstick reading? Refer to my first post then that says that my argument refers to a lot of engines, but not all.

Most 'modern engines' as you call them, have lambda sensors to automatically remap based on the lamda sensors, and other factors such as humidity, rpm, barometric pressure to ensure running rich doesn't happen. The only engine that should run rich is a carb based engine, and a badly tuned one at that - perhaps a really crappy fuel injected one too! Wasting fuel? Isn't that what driving is all about

ned, your argument makes a fair amount of sense, but.. Go back and read my post. The owners manual for my car states to drive away, why should I take your advice over that of the people who designed and manufactured the car, and bothered writing that in the book ( perhaps to correct a common misconception ?). I wonder what owners manuals for other cars say.
I wasn't suggesting to drive away instantly. I would let the car idle for a few seconds at least. After that if you do not have full oil pressure, and full oil supply to the cams, your oil pump is gone, pickup tube is blocked, or your engine is worn. I have plenty of mechanical sympathy, perhaps too much. My car uses hydraulic tappets, one or two of them might tick for a second if the car has not been started in a few days and they pump down. Of course I'll wait for them to stop ticking before driving away.
Bear in mind that we are only talking about driving away, and I mentioned in my post about driving gently until the engine is warm. Bear in mind as well that sitting around idling takes a long time to warm up the oil in your car. My car is turbocharged, and I wouldn't use any boost until the coolant is up to temp, so that there is some change of the oil being up to temp ( yes, need to fit an oil temp guage ).

Owen

Gerry wrote:

ned, your argument makes a fair amount of sense, but.. Go back and read my post. The owners manual for my car states to drive away, why should I take your advice over that of the people who designed and manufactured the car, and bothered writing that in the book

You shouldn't. That's why in my first post, and I referred to it in my second, I stated that my scenario is for MOST cars not ALL Cars.

My new car for '07 is a twin scroll turbo (I note yours is Turbo too), and is coming with what's called a Cockpit package - this includes 2 temp guages for oil and water, an oil pressure guage and a turbo pressure guage. I will not be driving off my driveway in the morning until I see the oil temp rise just a little. It's what I do when I fly, and it'll be what I do when I drive too.

galwaytt

Ned, thinking about it, modern EFI cars will control the fueling to an extent that idling is neglibly different from warm, but I still feel the oil system facts remain......if the car were a dry-sump engine, and you had this effect, you could safely say that the scavenge system/valving is worn, as it's 'wet sumping' when not running, and pressure is definately required. A wet sump engine, otoh, should not (very) noticeably drain down over normal non-running periods (e.g. whilst at work, overnight).

BTW - update.
Noddy in the Civic decided he didn't like the quote from the body shop - including the shop HE recommended, and got all thick and personal with the brother over it, and wouldn't pay for it. So, we took his details from his insurance disc on the window, called 'our' insurer, and their assessor will be out tomorrow. We're also telling 'our' insurer that the Civic is modified, and we'll see how he likes his renewal next year............should have stepped up, and paid up - now it'll all just end in tears...............

mukki

maidhc wrote:

Very true.

If you have a turbocharged engine (even a modern one) you really should let it idle for 60 seconds or so. Turbos blowing before your car being in a cube is not unheard of.

i read something about that before but was it "idling for 60 before turning the engine off"

maidhc wrote:

Humm...



My 1968 Ford 4000 tractor has a safety switch to prevent it being started in gear.



I always idle my car for a minute or so every morning, but no longer. It is uncooperative when cold anyway so I drive it very lightly until it warms up.

ah yes the auld my tractor is better then your car, reminds me of primary school

ps difference is my david brown was better!