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That really sucks

  • 21-11-2006 8:51am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭


    Live 200 MTT hand.

    Final table of 9, playing for about 20 mins. I have 52k, average 63k. Blinds 1500/3000. I'm shortest, if not 2nd shortest stack at the table, with no one having any significant chip lead.

    I make 10k utg with KK. Folded around to villian on BB who calls. The villian is the only one at the table who I have not played at another table. He seems a little loose/passive but aggressive in position.

    Flop Q88 (rainbow). He checks, I bet 11k. He calls.
    Turn 7. He checks, I check.
    River J. He pushes.
    And I...?


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Kamaldihnio


    Call and get knocked out to, trips a str8 or a house. Unlucky. Should have folded.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭Silver-Tiger


    Call and see him turn over QJ sooooooooooooooted!!

    Do u really think hes pushin the river with the 8?
    910 should not be left in there after the 11k on the flop
    I can be more passive with a big pair than a lot of players but i do not fold my KK here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭bops


    ...get back in your car and drive the long journey back to limerick!!

    should have folded lol

    (i'm only home now - easy money!!)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    Tough enough with no reads, but I doubt KK is ahead here, the way the hand has played out. Let it go; I know you'll be down to 10BBs, but you're not dead yet.

    Edit: You should give the villains stack size as well, it's important to know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    I think you should have just gone all in on the turn. The pot is big enough and I doubt he has an 8 unless it's quads. If you're beat on the river the only hand I think that beats you is JJ which I suspect is what happened, hense the post on boards. :) I think he has AQ/KQ here too often for you to fold.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭StraddleFor6


    I think a player like this pushes the flop with KQ/AQ. He calls with an 8 hoping to check raise/call all in, on the turn. But he also calls with 77-JJ hoping for a cheap showdown.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    Alright Lyonsie, based on the description of him as loose passive, I think I'm leaning towards a fold. His line looks quite like 8x. Could be A8, 89s, T8s etc.

    The only hands we're really beating here are AQ/AJ/QJ/Smaller Pairs bluffing because of your check on the turn. Tough spot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    bet the turn


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    I agree with El Stunty,
    why did you check the turn?
    I think it is a pretty plain move on his part that if you check the turn he should push t he river as the check in position on the turn shows weekness imo.

    He very well might of had qj for the two pair.

    I'm betting the turn everytime here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    Surely the hands you beat are show-down hands for him? AQ, KQ, etc? He doesn't gain a lot by pushing, except that you fold either aces or kings, but he couldn't even be sure you'd be good enough to do that. And would he really call the flop bet with <77, and then push the river on that board? I think you're screwed here.

    But again, it's very hard to analyse with no info on opponent.

    I think I might play this harder preflop (a slightly bigger raise), and push most flops.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    betting the turn and the river wouild be atrocious


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    This thread is weird. He made it 10k, which is more than 3bb, and has 40k behind. Why should he raise more? Why would he push 40k into a pot with 20kin it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    been played well to the river, but i think its a fold. players like this are value pushing here with 8x JJ QQ


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    After your opponent check calls the flop you surrender it HJ?

    What do you think he has? There are only three combinations that have you beat on that flop imo. AA, QQ for the set or 88 for quads. Would he not reraise from BB if he had AA?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    shoutman wrote:
    After your opponent check calls the flop you surrender it HJ?

    What do you think he has? There are only three combinations that have you beat on that flop imo. AA, QQ for the set or 88 for quads. Would he not reraise from BB if he had AA?

    read that he is loose, 8x is in his range


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    shoutman wrote:
    After your opponent check calls the flop you surrender it HJ?

    checking does not mean giveing up on the pot


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    He said a little loose, but I think he would have to be extremely loose to have 8x in his range here...I rarely see even very loose players playing 8x(be it a suited connector or otherwise) oop to a utg raise. I could be wrong but that is how I read it.

    And yes you are right checking does not mean giving up the pot but I think that it leaves it open for opponent to take you off the hand a lot easier then might otherwise have done.

    Why do you think betting the turn is a bad play HJ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    This thread is weird. He made it 10k, which is more than 3bb, and has 40k behind. Why should he raise more? Why would he push 40k into a pot with 20kin it?

    Hmm, when you put it like that... maybe to pick up 25K-30K at low risk? Something I've been thinking about lately (and brought up in a different thread) is, is it better to close down tournament hands as quickly as possible at lower risk, or try to get the most value out of a hand? Although I generally try to follow the second approach.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    shoutman wrote:
    After your opponent check calls the flop you surrender it HJ?

    What do you think he has? There are only three combinations that have you beat on that flop imo. AA, QQ for the set or 88 for quads. Would he not reraise from BB if he had AA?

    He is loose preflop. Therefore, suited connectors, suited one gappers, A8 type hands are all well within his range.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,679 ✭✭✭Daithio


    Alright Eoghan, I think you played it well. The only thing I would have done differently is bet a bit more on the flop. I think the check on the turn is the correct play. There aren't many draws on the board that he could be calling with on the flop, so it's not like you're giving him any free cards to fill a hand, unless he called you with an insider which is very unlikely. If you bet he'll fold hands that you're ahead of which he might call with on the river, and also if he has diddley squat you're giving him a chance to bet it on the river. I don't think you should be afraid of the 8 at all, if he has it fair play to him, but with your stack and your hand I really don't think you can fold here.

    One thing I don't understand though, why does it suck if you won the pot?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    OP said he seemed a little loose, I would regard someone as extremely loose if he was playing those hands to an utg range oop at this stage of a tourney.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    Hmm, when you put it like that... maybe to pick up 25K-30K at low risk? Something I've been thinking about lately (and brought up in a different thread) is, is it better to close down tournament hands as quickly as possible at lower risk, or try to get the most value out of a hand? Although I generally try to follow the second approach.

    Why is there more risk involved in betting say 10-15k on the flop?

    Betting 40k into the 20k pot means he calls us with all 8x hands and QQ. It also gives him a much harder call with AQ, KQ, JJ etc. I dont think he lays down any better hands by us shoving here nor does he call with many worse.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    Daithio wrote:
    One thing I don't understand though, why does it suck if you won the pot?


    LOL :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,679 ✭✭✭Daithio


    shoutman wrote:
    LOL :rolleyes:

    Lol. I saw 'Silver Tiger's reply and thought it was the OP, just saw the big 'S' I guess. Still think it was played fine, if it was a call on the end that is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    ianmc38 wrote:
    Why is there more risk involved in betting say 10-15k on the flop?

    Betting 40k into the 20k pot means he calls us with all 8x hands and QQ. It also gives him a much harder call with AQ, KQ, JJ etc. I dont think he lays down any better hands by us shoving here nor does he call with many worse.

    Meh, I occasionally throw out a post without really thinking about what I'm saying (maybe more than just occasionally). I shall now bow out of this thread with my tail between my legs...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    Hmm, when you put it like that... maybe to pick up 25K-30K at low risk? Something I've been thinking about lately (and brought up in a different thread) is, is it better to close down tournament hands as quickly as possible at lower risk, or try to get the most value out of a hand? Although I generally try to follow the second approach.

    Pushing all in on a flop of 88j with KK for more than twice the pot is not low risk, its just stupid


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭sikes


    shoutman wrote:
    OP said he seemed a little loose, I would regard someone as extremely loose if he was playing those hands to an utg range oop at this stage of a tourney.

    if you discount an 8 from his range then the call is easy. 8x is in the players range here as per the OP post.

    someones opinion of loose/very loose varies from person to person and can also change dependent on how the table is playing. all we need to know is that he is loose. what degree of looseness cant really be relayed from one person to another as each persons scale is different. this is covered well in physcology of poker, i think its called.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭cardshark202


    Its been played well up to this point. River is an easy call imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    Its been played well up to this point. River is an easy call imo.

    I am really struggling to see why so many think checking the turn is a good idea? do we really have him on 8x or QQ???

    (but then I am quite sleep-deprived today)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    I am really struggling to see why so many think checking the turn is a good idea? do we really have him on 8x or QQ???

    (but then I am quite sleep-deprived today)

    We dont know what hand he has. Fuzzbox described it well once, something to do with quantom physics. He doesnt have a hand yet, but the more pressure we put on the hand the more likely he is to turn up at the end with a hand that beats us.

    To put it simply, we dont have a good hand any more. Any 8 beats us. There are no draws and we already have 2 pair, so there is no need to worry about being drawn out on. We are either way ahead or way behind. Betting just makes it easier for a villain to dump hands we beat, stop him bluffing, and do his work for him if he has an 8.

    If the board was 22Q it would be different as its very unlikey he would have a 2.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭cardshark202


    I am really struggling to see why so many think checking the turn is a good idea? do we really have him on 8x or QQ???

    (but then I am quite sleep-deprived today)

    We are either way ahead or way behind here, checking the turn is harmless and it might induce him to value shove worse hands on the river or bluff


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,337 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    I am really struggling to see why so many think checking the turn is a good idea? do we really have him on 8x or QQ???

    (but then I am quite sleep-deprived today)

    I am kind of with you here El S
    I think Hands like AQ maybe KQ JJ TT are very much in his range here and a bet on the turn will get called by most if not all of these and AQ will rarely push that river in fact will check it down a large % of the time

    Hence
    I am not sure the analagy that no hands worse than us call on that turn is true

    Of course if we believe he will lay down AQ KQ QJ QT JJ TT or that his range for a flop call includes a lot more hands behind these then of course HJ is right


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    HJ and Reggie, hear what you say but I am allergic to giving free cards

    say he has AQ (plausible, no?) and rivers an A or a Q, our check on the turn kills us


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    HJ and Reggie, hear what you say but I am allergic to giving free cards

    say he has AQ (plausible, no?) and rivers an A or a Q, our check on the turn kills us

    Pot control and deception are often more important than protecting your hand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭MrPillowTalk


    HJ and Reggie, hear what you say but I am allergic to giving free cards

    say he has AQ (plausible, no?) and rivers an A or a Q, our check on the turn kills us

    Your thinking is flawed, if he has AQ he will call on the turn anyway so if an ace or queen hit the river the only thing youve done is lose more chips than you had to.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    Your thinking is flawed, if he has AQ he will call on the turn anyway so if an ace or queen hit the river the only thing youve done is lose more chips than you had to.

    and if it doesn't (likely probability), then I win more chips by inflating the pot size on the turn

    my brain ain't working too well though today so I may just concede this one....bandana boy, help me out here!!

    HJ, how was Afghanistan?

    (changes subject neatly)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    Pakistan was great! i wrote a lengthy report about it on blog if you are interested.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    Bandana Boy the analogy I used was not on the turn, but was in reply to an earlier comment about shoving 40k into the 20k pot on the flop.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,433 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    LuckyLloyd wrote:
    I agree with the philosophy of being miles ahead or behind in such a situation - put forth by Reggie and HJ. The check might get a further bet out of him or lose us the least. I think that the idea of "no free cards" is sometimes overused.

    surely if he is bad enough to check-call the flop bet, then he will do the same to a turn bet?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭nicnicnic


    bops wrote:
    ...get back in your car and drive the long journey back to limerick!!

    should have folded lol

    (i'm only home now - easy money!!)

    bops you finished 19th of the 32 runners ffs easy money:rolleyes:


    straddle, very unlucky but i felt you were fcuked when he checked the turn


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,337 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    I would not be betting the turn to protect my hand (Sorry El S)
    But to maximise my winnings
    Again this is all villain dependent
    if we feel there is a strong chance Villain will Call the flop with nothing and push with nothing on river then Check Call is the way to go no doubt about it

    I just feel that often villain has a hand with some showdown value after the flop call and he has this more often than a hand that beat's us or a hand of air

    So with that in mind I am trying to pull chips out of him when he has AQ KQ etc because he is unlikely to bet the river with these hands

    at no point do i think we should push here but value bet 1/3ish of pot


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    I would not be betting the turn to protect my hand (Sorry El S)
    But to maximise my winnings
    Again this is all villain dependent
    if we feel there is a strong chance Villain will Call the flop with nothing and push with nothing on river then Check Call is the way to go no doubt about it

    I just feel that often villain has a hand with some showdown value after the flop call and he has this more often than a hand that beat's us or a hand of air

    So with that in mind I am trying to pull chips out of him when he has AQ KQ etc because he is unlikely to bet the river with these hands

    at no point do i think we should push here but value bet 1/3ish of pot

    that's pretty much what I as trying to say (but much more eloquent and with better spelling thanks BB!)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭bops


    nicnicnic wrote:
    bops you finished 19th of the 32 runners ffs easy money:rolleyes:

    lol bubbleboy - at least i left with 750 in my pocket - tourneys are for sissys!!

    PS i think i was 17th ;) people like to suckout my chips and piss them away to you - what can i do??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    HJ, just read the "Pakistan" blog, nice post - sounds interesting

    (although we all know you were actually in Tora Bora trying to scoop that $25m jackpot for Osama's head)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    (although we all know you were actually in Tora Bora trying to scoop that $25m jackpot for Osama's head)

    LOL I dare say that would be the end of HJ's bankroll management....

    I too read the blog great read and am waiting for the next installment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭kakak1


    bops wrote:
    lol bubbleboy - at least i left with 750 in my pocket - tourneys are for sissys!!

    PS i think i was 17th ;) people like to suckout my chips and piss them away to you - what can i do??


    not bad for you bops, from a starting stack of 1750 :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭StraddleFor6


    Checking te turn is what to do. Calling the all in on the river is what not to do...which I did, and he proudly showed 89.


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