[article] Underground in Ballymun not an option - RPA

Navan Junction

Irish Times, 20th Nov 2006

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) is to meet public representatives from Ballymun tomorrow in a bid to find a solution to local concerns about Dublin's Metro North. Tim O'Brienreports.

Local politicians and representatives of Ballymun Regeneration, who have already met the RPA on one occasion, want the metro to run underground.

But while the RPA agreed to consider its options following the last meeting, a spokesman insisted going underground "is not being considered".

The Irish Times understands that cost is a critical factor in the agency's deliberations.

However, Labour TD for the area Róisín Shortall said no other option was suitable for the community or for the success of the line, and she believed it would become an election issue if the RPA did not accede to local wishes.

The three options for the route through the north Dublin suburb include an overground "on stilts" option; running the train line up the median of Ballymun Road and Main Street; or running it in a trench along the median.

But locals point to the presence of three junctions on Ballymun's Main Street at which they claim a high-speed train could not be expected to stop and queue at traffic lights. They also believe the line would represent a permanent barrier down the middle of Main Street, a feature which it is claimed would negate much of the refurbishment in the area.

Locals are also strongly opposed to the elevated option, claiming that such a design has led to anti-social behaviour underneath similar rail-lines in other cities.

They say there is also an issue with the route passing houses at first-floor level, as passengers would have a direct line of sight into private homes.

The third option to put the line in a trench is also less than desirable, according to Ms Shortall, who said it it would be a potential hazard.

If agreement cannot be reached at tomorrow's meeting, locals have pledged to make it an election issue.

But the RPA told The Irish Timeslast night it was satisfied that it was proceeding with the plans as they were proposed in the public consultation.

The agency said it was prepared to look at all the options and "work through the difficulties", but it repeated that putting the metro underground at Ballymun "is not being considered".

D'Peoples Voice

Navan Junction wrote:

The three options for the route through the north Dublin suburb include an overground "on stilts" option; running the train line up the median of Ballymun Road and Main Street; or running it in a trench along the median.

If memory serves me correctly, the DCC stated that when they were regenerating the main street of Ballymun, they were building a wide central median to allow for the Luas to be installed in the central median from collins ave to M50 junction, akin to the Luas along the R110 between Bluebell and Red Cow Roundabout.

daymobrew

Navan Junction wrote:

They say there is also an issue with the route passing houses at first-floor level, as passengers would have a direct line of sight into private homes.

Surely this 'direct line of sight' is possible from double decker buses. Are these to be rerouted? :rolleyes:

mackerski

You've all missed the great news of the upgrade of the system specs. According to the article we'll be getting a high speed train instead of the big trams we all expected.

Dermot

Capt'n Midnight

mackerski wrote:

You've all missed the great news of the upgrade of the system specs. According to the article we'll be getting a high speed train instead of the big trams we all expected.

Dermot

not just high speed, it will be an express, with fewer stops too.

Slice

I think to have an elevated Metro would be really detrimental to the urban environment - take a look at this:


It's quite possibly the least attractive option available anywhere and should be the last resort. The Ballymun residents are right to object to it, it would have a negative effect on the Ballymun regeneration. I'm not necessarily in favour of underground for Ballymun but the other option; to have level crossings over local roads would also be to repeat the same mistakes made with DART. If it was Luas they were building it'd be fine but it’s supposed to be Metro. Why bother with costly underground stations into the heart of the city when you're going to get Luas-style travel experiences when you hit the suburbs?? It seems short sighted that this is becoming an issue, the whole thing should have been planned in such a way as to totally avoid this from the get-go.

Of course when they were planning the regeneration of Ballymun it was anticipated that Luas would be constructed to serve the area - nearly a decade later and nothing has been delivered so far because of Government indicision.

A Dub in Glasgo

This was the subject of my objection to the RPA during the public consultation period. It will be a travesty if the RPA go with the stilts option.

With the headway proposed for the metro, level crossings are not the solution.

jjbrien

Elavated metros are not so bad. If anybody has seen the Bart in San Franciso it is a very nice train and did not do any harm to any area where it was elivated. I think what we are going to get in Dublin is something simular to the Bart even looking at the trains it seem very simular.

strassenwolf

A couple of questions for the experts on the board.

Is it intended that there will be two tunnel boring machines used for the metro project? i.e. one for the underground section between the city and DCU and one for the section through the airport. Can it be taken that the tunnel boring machines will be turned around and sent back in the opposite direction, as they were for the port tunnel, so that each tunnelled stretch actually comprises two tunnels? (I think that it is usually the case that, for safety reasons, it is not normal to have "opposing" tracks running side by side in the one tunnel)

If the entire route were to be tunnelled between the city centre and the Airport, including through Ballymun, it might only be necessary to have one tunnel boring machine. Obviously this would be more expensive, as there'd be a lot more tunnelling to do, but at least there would be savings on the machines. I believe it took almost two years to even build the boring machines that were used on the port tunnel, so they're clearly expensive pieces of equipment. There might also be savings in terms of the time taken to put two machines into the ground, turn two machines around, etc.

As the actual cost of the metro is still unclear, it may be difficult to say what percentage might be added on to the cost of the project by tunnelling the whole way to the airport, cut-and-cover through Ballymun, etc.

Zoney

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

If memory serves me correctly, the DCC stated that when they were regenerating the main street of Ballymun, they were building a wide central median to allow for the Luas to be installed in the central median from collins ave to M50 junction, akin to the Luas along the R110 between Bluebell and Red Cow Roundabout.

Surely this would as easily allow cut-and-cover (i.e. cover the trench they talk about as one option). I doubt they are likely to shy away from cut-and-cover even across road junctions (and besides, with careful arrangement even that shouldn't bog traffic down too much during construction).

I really don't understand them talking about a trench. Sure people would be lobbing stuff down at the train night and day! We've enough bother even just with bridges over motorways! And the Westlink in Belfast isn't exactly the height of safety (concrete blocks being lobbed down and all that).

Underground really seems like the sane option.

Winters

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This was the subject of my objection to the RPA during the public consultation period. It will be a travesty if the RPA go with the stilts option.

But you live in Glasgow dont you?

strassenwolf wrote:

A couple of questions for the experts on the board.

Is it intended that there will be two tunnel boring machines used for the metro project? i.e. one for the underground section between the city and DCU and one for the section through the airport. Can it be taken that the tunnel boring machines will be turned around and sent back in the opposite direction, as they were for the port tunnel, so that each tunnelled stretch actually comprises two tunnels? .

The RPA intend using two TBMs for the city centre tunnel section. Both setting off simultaneously from Albert College Park and being dismantled and extracted from the city centre - Still issues to be worked out there regarding location.

Currently it is envisaged to use one TBM from metro park to north of Dublin airport with a turnaround and relaunch like the DPT - Note direction could change.

In light of timeframe and the overall construction costs the actual cost of an extra TBM of this particular diameter is not too significant.

A Dub in Glasgo

Winters wrote:

But you live in Glasgow?

Correct

Navan Junction

If you look at how the Luas is elevated at Dundrum, it looks quite well..

I'm not saying it is an ideal option, but it could be done quite well..

Who would have thought the bridge at Dundrum would be such a land-mark?

Could the the line be brough back down to grade from the stilts at the actual metro stops (like the dip at Beechwood on the Luas Green line)?

Winters

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Correct

Im not intending on being rude but why did you make an objection rather than a submission when you dont live along the route?

bazzer06

I think we should look at the metro in Rennes in France for inspiration - it combines at grade, underground and elevated track very sucessfully and at points they have what would be an option for the cut and over method in Ballymun, with trains running in shallow tunnels, often with windows allowing light in at the top.

Some info is available on www.urbanrail.net

A Dub in Glasgo

Winters wrote:

Im not intending on being rude but why did you make an objection rather than a submission when you dont live along the route?

Although I have left Ballymun, I have a brother and his family, a sister and her family, a sister in law and her family and a brother in law and his family still living in Ballymun. They asked me to co-ordinate their responses during the public consultation phase (must be because I have been working in railway engineering for 13 years).

Winters

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Although I have left Ballymun, I have a brother and his family, a sister and her family, a sister in law and her family and a brother in law and his family still living in Ballymun. They asked me to co-ordinate their responses during the public consultation phase (must be because I have been working in railway engineering for 13 years).

Fair play.

Capt'n Midnight

We've had elevated rail lines in Dublin since the 1830's or there abouts. So I can't see what all the fuss is about.

There was a bit about un-social elements congregating under the lines, but it won't create those elements and some classical music should shift them.

dowlingm

for the understilt antisocial behaviour - develop the space underneath. See the Westway in London. Just don't wait for crap to start before doing so as they did.
http://www.westway.org/about_us/history/#a

strassenwolf

Winters wrote:

The RPA intend using two TBMs for the city centre tunnel section. Both setting off simultaneously from Albert College Park and being dismantled and extracted from the city centre - Still issues to be worked out there regarding location.

Currently it is envisaged to use one TBM from metro park to north of Dublin airport with a turnaround and relaunch like the DPT - Note direction could change.

In light of timeframe and the overall construction costs the actual cost of an extra TBM of this particular diameter is not too significant.

Thanks for that.

It had been suggested that the machines might be left in the ground in the city, which could be handy if the metro is ever extended south. If they are to be dismantled and extracted, it sounds like there are no plans in train to do that, or at least not anytime soon.

Winters

Tunnelling involves a lot of ancillary works at the launch pit. I would imagine the city centre would not act as a launch pit for any of the lines and that any further underground lines into the city centre would be lauched from outside and removed in the same way.

My only qualm with Metro North as it is is that the city centre tunnel should be completed in full and not stop at St. Stephen's Green.