Crazy Poker Story

RasTa

Imagine this happening in the Fitz or SE
*from fullcontact poker forums
http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forum/index.php?showtopic=80174&st=0




I just left a $2-$5 no limit cash game at Caesar's in Las Vegas. What just happened to me sounds like something out of a movie. A player who had over $2,000 in front of him went all in and I called with $1,255 in front of me. Then the player declared that he hadn't gone all in, took his money, and left. Now to the details.

This player had said earlier that his name is J.R. My name is Matt. We were in the poker room at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas, at table 9 in the middle of the room. I was in the 2 seat, and J.R. was in the 6 seat. FYI Caesar's has all of their cash games going 9 handed now.

J.R. had been playing erratically, and had gone all in for over $1,000 several times on the flop with $100 or less in the pot. One time about 25 minutes before this final hand happened, he went all in for $1,015 when there was about $100 in the pot. The flop was ten high with two hearts. Finally the player in seat 3 called him, with a bigger stack. J.R. had T7 for a pair of tens with 7 kicker, which held up. The other times he went all in like this, no one called him.

So the hand. I get JJ in the BB, seat 2. J.R. raises it to $20 in seat 6. The button on seat 9 calls, I call, as does a limper in seat 4 or 5. The flop comes Jxx, I think J42 or J45. I check, hoping that J.R. will do the all in move once again. Everyone checks around. The turn brings another small card. I wish I had the exact cards, but I don't remember for sure. I bet 40, the next player folds, and J.R. asks me how many bills I have. $100 bills play on the table in this game, and I had 4 of them behind my stack of chips. I had $655 in red & smaller chips, two black chips, and the four $100 bills. I answered him that I had 4 bills. He then said 'I'll put him all in.' I was so glad to hear this that I acted out of turn, something I normally never do. But I had forgotten the 9 seat was still in the hand, I couldn't see his cards. I said 'I call'. Then the dealer said the action was over here (at the 9 seat), at which point J.R. mucked his hand. The 9 seat then folded as well, and I said 'he said he was all in' and the dealer and several players agreed. J.R. started going on about how he hadn't said that, but the dealer and players at the table backed me up.

J.R. then started gathering his money and putting it in his pockets. The floor came over and asked what happened, and J.R. tried to make his case. The table held true, and he became agitated. The floor man put in a call to security. Then J.R. finished putting his money away, and turned to leave. I went around to pursue him, and then the floor man said 'don't, we'll take care of it' and I asked him 'you are going to take care of this?' and he said yes. He had already made a ruling that the all in was valid and that I was owed the money, before J.R. tried to leave.

So the floor man and a couple other poker room employees pursued him. I put my faith in them as they asked, and stayed at the table. About 10 minutes later, they returned with J.R., escorted by 4-5 security guards. The debate ensued again over whether he had been all in. J.R. asked the table if they had heard him go all in, he said 'anyone who heard me go all in raise your hand' and 4-5 people at the table raised their hands. It was also clarified that he had more money on the table than I did, and that I had $1,255 when he went all in. He refused to pay.

J.R. leaves again, with security letting him walk, but surrounding him. I ask what is going on, and they tell me they will take care of it. A few minutes later, I am told that J.R. has been taken to a holding area.

The casino manager shows up and tells me they would do what they could. He said that they could not force him to take money out of his pocket to pay me. I asked if Caesar's would stand good for the wager and collect from him, and he said they would not. He said that Caesar's only deals cards and rents space to players, and that they are not responsible for making sure that bets are paid. He said the only way I would get paid is if the other player voluntarily gives up the money.

Caesar's then asks everyone at the table to make a written statement. I and several of the players agreed, and wrote out statements saying what they saw happen, and provided contact information.

Then a gaming control agent arrives. He is a state of Nevada police officer, in the gaming control board enforcement division. He reviews the written statements of the players, including mine. Then he calls me over, and tells me that he has enough evidence and he wants to charge J.R. with felony robbery. I asked about getting my money, and he said that even if J.R. gets scared and gives it up tonight, that they would keep it as evidence, and I would get it back waaaaaay later at the end of the court case, months later. He said he wants to charge J.R. regardless of what he agrees to at this point, so that players do not try to do this in the future. If J.R. were allowed to leave just by offering to pay up, then he would have had nothing to lose by trying to walk away. I see this police officer's point, and I agree with it. The downside of that is that I am out $1,255. Who knows if I'll ever get it back through restitution. The only way I'll see the money now is from a check cut by the court, after J.R. pays restitution. And of course, that's only if he's found guilty in court, or does a plea bargain.

I asked the manager again about getting my money. I told him, how can you just let a player walk away with his money when he loses? I guarantee if that bet had been at a blackjack table, the casino would have made sure that money was collected. He said they weren't responsible for making sure I was paid, and that they wouldn't pay me, and the only way I was getting paid was to get the money from the other player.

How can a poker room be like this? I would never even consider not paying a bet. So if an opponent doesn't share those values, he can just decide not to pay? He's being charged with robbery, but what if he gets off through some technicality? Caesar's is just going to let the guy go all in, declare that the bet is valid, my call is valid, then let the guy take his money off the table and leave? I think they should stand good for the bet, and collect it from him. Several players in the room expressed their dismay, one guy even said he would never come back. Who knows about that, but is it worth $1,255 for their reputation to be tarnished? I don't know how other rooms would deal with this, but I think especially since this is not a lot of money to a casino, that they would pay me the money, the amount they themselves verified was the wager, and collect it from the offender.

Does anyone have any advice as to what I can do?

Do I have any options?

Would any poker room act like this? If not, where is a better place to go?

Sorry this was so long, and thanks for reading. I'm sure I left some things out and was a little convoluted. If anyone has questions or advice, please let me know!

This is Nevada Gaming Control Board case # 2006-8854-LV.

Thanks,
Matt

cardshark202

That is sick

Mellor

so what did he have anyway??
unlucky that he tried to get away with this. would of been a nice pot for you.

Hawk Eye

This is horrible but how can you claim the money if the river wasn't dealt, this could be a blessing in disguise cause he hits a gutshot on the end alot here.

ArmaniJeanss

HolyFcuk, my flabber is gasted.

I hope CaesarsP do the decent thing.
I would suggest that you should post this on the 'legal discussion' board on 2+2, see what they say there.

hotspur

Interesting story, I sympathise but agree with the casino that they cannot just take money out of the guy's pockets if he is unwilling to agree. The same thing *would* probably happen if he grabbed money back from the blackjack table, it would probably be held by law enforcement until the trial was over.

Really you just have to wait until the case but even at that it could be argued that it was never your money as you didn't actually win it, but in Nevada they are well used to gaming cases so it will probably be pointed out that leaving the table forfeits his hand and a right to the pot. So you should get it after the trial.

I hope it works out for you in the end, I'd say sit tight, in the end it'll be worth it for the story.

RoundTower

RasTa wrote:

Imagine this happening in the Fitz or SE

well it wouldn't happen in the Fitz.

Goodluck2me

RoundTower wrote:

well it wouldn't happen in the Fitz.

they dont have a 2$-5$ game sure...

Goodluck2me

it ridiculous how they let you play with 100$ bills, you may aswell give a dealer $20 an hour and play in a bar. also did the guy not have some casino chips in his stack or was all of his dollars?

RoundTower

Mellor/Armani/hotspur/goodluck,

I don't think this actually happened to OP.

Doc Farrell

If you are still there tell them that you want to press charges if you dont get the money in the next two hours.
Tell them you are a journalist and will be writing an article on it on every site you know, including Cardplayer. They can set a precedent anyway they choose.

What they choose is out of your hands but they're about to get 1000 dollars worth of the worst pr if they don't get it right.

this is an interesting story, you should write about it on cardplayer however it turns out. play it cool as theres nothing you can do, but don't give them more than 24 hours to pay up. After that you won't get it.

RasTa

Yeah it didnt happen me btw, i'll edit the post but the link at the top.

Doc Farrell

ah u son a diddly!

i thought u were stuck in the middle of it!

man i feel like a schmuck!

hotspur

RoundTower wrote:

Mellor/Armani/hotspur/goodluck,
I don't think this actually happened to OP.

*Quick look back at the post*

Man we're dumb

Doc Farrell

or possibly, in the case of one poster, drunk!

(i still stand by my post though )

Rb

Read this on FCP earlier in the week. Absolutely sick what happened him, not much he can do but wait and hope he gets the cash back I suppose. Did the right thing letting the casino security deal with it though.

ArmaniJeanss

RoundTower wrote:

Mellor/Armani/hotspur/goodluck,

I don't think this actually happened to OP.

Damn, good spot RoundTower. Though my comments still stand if this exact same thing ever happens to the original poster.

P.S. I plead the whole 'Doc Farrell drunkeness excuse' for not spotting the link.

Mr. Flibble

Hawk Eye wrote:

This is horrible but how can you claim the money if the river wasn't dealt, this could be a blessing in disguise cause he hits a gutshot on the end alot here.

He mucked his cards.

I don't see why the money would be kept from Matt if JR decides to pay up but still gets prosecuted. I don't know the US law, but if JR offers Matt the cash I don't see how some 3rd party can claim it for some court case.

cardshark202

I could have sworn i played with JR in caesers during the summer.

JP Poker

If a player folds his hand then his hand is dead. matt wins the hand

careca

The big mistake here is JR saying "I'll put you all in". No-one can do that only Matt

And its interesting that JP (did Matt get his letters mixed up) Poker now has a sudden interest in the case. mmmmm.

El Stuntman

<awaits 'who shot JR?' developments....>

phantom_lord

wasn't this on 2+2 a good while ago? Pretty sick anyway.

PiperT

cardshark202 wrote:

I could have sworn i played with JR in caesers during the summer.

Who Shot JR ?


LOL El Stuntman, just read your post.

kebabfest

I would have followed him outside and battered him !!

Ste05

Very annoying I'd say, but legally I'd think that JR wouldn't have to pay in Ireland. All contracts for gambling are not enforcable in Irish courts, (and most common law jurisdictions - of which the US is not one) it's one of the reasons that people's reputation in gambling circles are so important. It's also why you'll see that no bookie will accept a bet in the form of cheque or Credit card as payment. (at least until the payment has cleared) (All you'd have to do is, put the bet on, if it loses, cancel the cheque and the bookie has no comeback, other than to make sure noone ever takes a bet off you in the future).

This particular situation would probably be viewed as an oral contract between the 2 players, all properly formed, etc. however, not enforcable by the courts. Now whether the guy could actually get out of the room is another thing, but certainly something to look out for, in situations like this the letter of the law would nearly always be circumvented by real life realities, but just thought it was worth letting people know this little snippet of info.

Mr. Flibble

Ste05 wrote:

Very annoying I'd say, but legally I'd think that JR wouldn't have to pay in Ireland. All contracts for gambling are not enforcable in Irish courts, (and most common law jurisdictions - of which the US is not one) it's one of the reasons that people's reputation in gambling circles are so important. It's also why you'll see that no bookie will accept a bet in the form of cheque or Credit card as payment. (at least until the payment has cleared) (All you'd have to do is, put the bet on, if it loses, cancel the cheque and the bookie has no comeback, other than to make sure noone ever takes a bet off you in the future).

Is there any chance buying lottery tickets is considered gambling? One could make a serious amount of money with a syndicate and a few bad cheques.

Sangre

No, they'd be covered by s32 of the National Lottery Act 1986 as an exception to the Gaming and Lottery Acts 1956-1986.

Mr. Flibble

That kills the party alright.