Bad player Playing to High ????

aidankk

The following hand came up when i chanced my arm at 2-4 NL on stars


The villian and one other player had been re-raising to much from what i could see, altough i was not a the table that long...

Im not sure i tought i picked up a chip tell, i just felt that i was ahead, and perhaps the guy had a higher flush draw..

I limped in on SB, he mage it 4bb, i called thinking if i hit anything ill reraise the cont bet..


Anyway
PokerStars Game #7060476109: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/11/17 - 11:37:37 (ET)
Table 'Eunomia IV' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Villian ($446 in chips)
Seat 2: '''' ($428.60 in chips)
Seat 3: '''' ($394 in chips)
Seat 4: ''''' ($876.35 in chips)
Seat 5: '' ($438 in chips)
Seat 6: aidankk ($506 in chips)
aidankk: posts small blind $2
tapatapa: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aidankk [7c 8c]

aidankk: calls $2
villian: raises $12 to $16
aidankk: calls $12
*** FLOP *** [Kc 2c 8h]
aidankk: bets $24
villian: raises $45 to $69
aidankk: calls $45
*** TURN *** [Kc 2c 8h] [5h]
aidankk: checks
villian: bets $129
aidankk: calls $129
*** RIVER *** [Kc 2c 8h 5h] [Ks]
aidankk: checks
villian: bets $155
aidankk: calls $155
*** SHOW DOWN ***
villian: shows [4h Td] (a pair of Kings)
aidankk: shows [7c 8c] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
aidankk collected $735 from pot



A lot of bad play from me, but i was just working on feel, i tought i was ahead on flop, and stayed in from there.. I had an idea he may try to outplay me as i had folded to a good few cont bets up to then..

Im bracing myself for the comments.... Is there anybody else that would call the turn and river , and not be a complete Donkey...

MrPillowTalk

You should be prepared to get it all in on the flop so when he raises you I would be reraising heavy.

I dont like your line from then on, I would have folded to the turn bet but would never have flat called the flop as you basically say to him "I have a flush draw play accordingly" which he did but you found just enough to call him down. I think if you play passive like this against good players you will be killed.

aidankk

MrPillowTalk wrote:

You should be prepared to get it all in on the flop so when he raises you I would be reraising heavy.

I dont like your line from then on, I would have folded to the turn bet but would never have flat called the flop as you basically say to him "I have a flush draw play accordingly" which he did but you found just enough to call him down. I think if you play passive like this against good players you will be killed.

I dont normally play passive, but this time i just felt he would try to take me off the hand.. I was prepared to let him try to take me off my flush draw, then the 2nd king hit it just felt he didnt have one.. Once i called the turn i have to call the river as the river bet is not big enough....

Obviously your right about playing too passive against reasonable players, but here i played the hand a lot differant than i normally would ( i would normally ship it on the flop, but then i suppose the pot would be smaller..)

I have been adding the cont bet reraise (with nothing) to my game lately and it works well, i might just try something like this if i feel i may have a weak image at the table.. ( probably better if the pot is not that big tough...), as there always seems to be one guy prepared to bluff off chips at the mid levels..

MrPillowTalk

aidankk wrote:

I dont normally play passive, but this time i just felt he would try to take me off the hand.. I was prepared to let him try to take me off my flush draw, then the 2nd king hit it just felt he didnt have one.. Once i called the turn i have to call the river as the river bet is not big enough....

..

Who cares if he tries to take you off it, then you just get all in? if he has a King your not in bad shape and might even get him to fold a bad king, if he has 99 - QQ he will fold, if he has a better flush draw he will either fold or youll be ahead when it goes in, if he has an 8 he will fold, if he has a monster like a set then your not in terrible shape. Flat calling the flop raise is a terrible play.

Flat calling the turn is nearly as bad.

Once the second King arrives your right it helps your hand, but you have a guy who has bet like he has a king the whole way through the hand then when the second king arrives he makes the milk bet that any good player would make here, so Im not sure about your logic.

You say he bets too small to get a fold out of you, personally Id rather be calling an overbet on the river than a 1/3rd pot milking bet. Personally I think he played the pot well as your play stinks of a busted draw.

aidankk

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Who cares if he tries to take you off it, then you just get all in? if he has a King your not in bad shape and might even get him to fold a bad king, if he has 99 - QQ he will fold, if he has a better flush draw he will either fold or youll be ahead when it goes in, if he has an 8 he will fold, if he has a monster like a set then your not in terrible shape. Flat calling the flop raise is a terrible play.

Flat calling the turn is nearly as bad.

Once the second King arrives your right it helps your hand, but you have a guy who has bet like he has a king the whole way through the hand then when the second king arrives he makes the milk bet that any good player would make here, so Im not sure about your logic.

You say he bets too small to get a fold out of you, personally Id rather be calling an overbet on the river than a 1/3rd pot milking bet. Personally I think he played the pot well as your play stinks of a busted draw.

yep your right all round, tried something differant and got lucky, probably a symtom of playing too high for my roll, at 1-2 or .5-1 i ship it after the flop re-raise every time...

Just had and tought that blind on blind i was ahead in the hand LOL

Not sure about him being a good player tough, as he tilted away another buy-in very soon after.. possibly just over agg player..

fuzzbox

I agree with Pillow - you played bad.

MrPillowTalk

aidankk wrote:

yep your right all round, tried something differant and got lucky, probably a symtom of playing too high for my roll, at 1-2 or .5-1 i ship it after the flop re-raise every time...

Just had and tought that blind on blind i was ahead in the hand LOL

Not sure about him being a good player tough, as he tilted away another buy-in very soon after.. possibly just over agg player..

Im not saying he is good, most arent, but your play just limits your ways to win the hand by flat calling, even if you think your ahead which is quite feasible you really dont want to give another card here.

Its hard but when your playing higher then your roll then you should either 1) play the same game you usually do (if its a winning game) or alternatively 2) you can play defensively which reduces both your variance and usually, but not allways, your profitability. Playing defensive means playing tighter than usual which means speculative hands like suited connectors really have to drop from your range, and if you do play them then and you get the flop you did before you have to immediately decide either you have one stab and go away to a raise or you are prepared to get it in on a coinflip if needs be. Calling off your money is rarely a good option.

Not trying to be harsh, and believe me I often play stinker hands as well.

Lafortezza

fuzzbox wrote:

I agree with Pillow - you played bad.

lol, nice contribution. :rolleyes:

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

lol, nice contribution. :rolleyes:

Would you prefer me to just say the same things as the right honourable Mr. Pillow ?

MrPillowTalk

fuzzbox wrote:

Would you prefer me to just say the same things as the right honourable Mr. Pillow ?

lol the right honourable I must be getting old I used to be the despicable.

El Stuntman

MrPillowTalk wrote:

lol the right honourable I must be getting old I used to be the despicable.

only this guy ever called you that

Hectorjelly

I think you played it very well and probably the best line to take against a very aggressive player. He probably isnt folding much that you beat on the flop to a three bet, and your flop lead is going to induce a raise and subsequent bluffs from a lot of hands that destroy. Just dont get to the river and fold whatever you do. This would be a very bad line to take with just a flush draw, and too risky without the flush draw.

The only thing I would say is that in normal circumstances this would be very bad, and players who play like this tend to be donkeys. But for this hand it was actually expert play.

aidankk

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think you played it very well and probably the best line to take against a very aggressive player. He probably isnt folding much that you beat on the flop to a three bet, and your flop lead is going to induce a raise and subsequent bluffs from a lot of hands that destroy. Just dont get to the river and fold whatever you do. This would be a very bad line to take with just a flush draw, and too risky without the flush draw.

The only thing I would say is that in normal circumstances this would be very bad, and players who play like this tend to be donkeys. But for this hand it was actually expert play.

I tough myself it was a risky play, but i just had a feel that he would try to take me off the hand, as i had probably folded to too many cont bets, and the like earlier, i may have had a weak image, which is not my normal image at a table...

Goodluck2me

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think you played it very well and probably the best line to take against a very aggressive player. He probably isnt folding much that you beat on the flop to a three bet, and your flop lead is going to induce a raise and subsequent bluffs from a lot of hands that destroy. Just dont get to the river and fold whatever you do. This would be a very bad line to take with just a flush draw, and too risky without the flush draw.

The only thing I would say is that in normal circumstances this would be very bad, and players who play like this tend to be donkeys. But for this hand it was actually expert play.

you have the odd habit of a sarcastic post, but this time mine iss broken. i actually agree with what you are sayign here i thought he took a good line here. he let an aggressive player bluff 3 times into him without having to committ his whole stack. the cards that came though were perfect for you as neither should have brought him ahead of you with the exception of 55. the 5 meant you should still be ahead, and the king meant that if you were ahead you still are if not then so be it. again i would qualify this by saying that normally this isnt the best lien but here it was pretty good imo.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think you played it very well and probably the best line to take against a very aggressive player. He probably isnt folding much that you beat on the flop to a three bet, and your flop lead is going to induce a raise and subsequent bluffs from a lot of hands that destroy. Just dont get to the river and fold whatever you do. This would be a very bad line to take with just a flush draw, and too risky without the flush draw.

The only thing I would say is that in normal circumstances this would be very bad, and players who play like this tend to be donkeys. But for this hand it was actually expert play.

have to disagree with this and agree with pillow.
i dont think the line here is expert at all .
the only reason i can think of why you are suggesting this that the opponent is aggro and we are letting him bluff at it.
the problem with this is our hand is weak and needs protection.
villain could have got a T or anything on the turn or river to win the hand .
i would agree if hero had a higher pair and a flush draw ie pair of quins or kings and flush drae becuase then there would not be that many over cards to be scared of but not with a pair of sevens.
best play here is to shove on the flop and the reason is your happy whether he calls or folds.