Vendor asking for money 3 months after closing

zefer

Hi there,

I bought an apartment in the summer and closed on August 14th. I received a letter in the post yesterday from my solicitor requesting €380 in property management fees. The letter stating that the vendor had paid up till the end of the year and is looking for the above amount back because they sold up before this.

My take is tough, the sale has closed and I shouldnt give anything back.
Anyone have any ideas where I stand legally??

Thanks

Gurgle

zefer wrote:

My take is tough, the sale has closed and I shouldnt give anything back.
Anyone have any ideas where I stand legally??

Does the contract of sale includes the property management fee being paid up until the end of the year?

If not then tough, you have to pay it.

Paulw

Your own solicitor should know best as to what your legal stand is. I guess it's a case of tough - you have to pay. Your management fees are not a once off, they are recurring. So, a close of sale doesn't mean you don't have to pay any more management fees.

seamus

Gurgle wrote:

Does the contract of sale includes the property management fee being paid up until the end of the year?

If not then tough, you have to pay it.

Agreed. You should have checked it out before closing and included the management fees as part of the sale. If you didn't, then pay them.

zefer

Paulw wrote:

Your own solicitor should know best as to what your legal stand is. I guess it's a case of tough - you have to pay. Your management fees are not a once off, they are recurring. So, a close of sale doesn't mean you don't have to pay any more management fees.

I am well aware it is a standing fee but it has been paid up unitl the end of the year so I dont think I should give her money back...
I think the vendor should have got it included in the contract that I was to pay her this money..

Just My View

Stop the lights.

You don't owe him a refund, if one is due it should come from the property mangement company, not you.

They in turn should bill you for the portion of the year that you will be in the property and then bill you as normal in subsequent years.

Or did I miss something real obvious here like he originally paid his property management fees to you?

kmick

This is one of these situations where you cant lose. There are two scenarios
1) Your solicitor missed something in the contract about you paying management fees for the rest of the year. In this case the solicitor bears the brunt as it is his mistake.
2) In anyone else i.e. the vendor, the vendors solictior forgot to include this on the contract - then tough.

Either way do not pay. Instruct your solicitor to ignore this request for money if it is not his fault.

PS - you should have expected to get charged for management fees - it is a standard practise.

zefer

Just My View wrote:

Stop the lights.

You don't owe him a refund, if one is due it should come from the property mangement company, not you.

They in turn should bill you for the portion of the year that you will be in the property and then bill you as normal in subsequent years.
QUOTE]


This is exactly what I thought. I have already told my solicitors secretary this and will tell him the same if he rings me back!
Thanks all

sarahhurray

yes you do. We had to refund the guy we bought our apartment from, it's only fair. Our solicitor was great on the detail and it came as no surprise.

iguana

Just My View wrote:

Stop the lights.

You don't owe him a refund, if one is due it should come from the property mangement company, not you.

They in turn should bill you for the portion of the year that you will be in the property and then bill you as normal in subsequent years.

zefer wrote:

This is exactly what I thought. I have already told my solicitors secretary this and will tell him the same if he rings me back!
Thanks all

You do realise that this means you will still have to pay the €380. You will just cause hassle all around. It seems to me you are being bad-minded.

daiixi

You should have refunded the proportion of the management fee paid from the day the sale completed. It was unfortunately missed by the vendor's solicitor. You owe the vendor this money and if he/she took you to small claims court (or any equivalent) the vendor would win and you would have to pay the money. Just pay it up and stop wasting the time of two sets of solicitors and their secretaries who have much better things to spend their time on.

antoinolachtnai

Well, three months is a long time to wait before coming back to you.

An alternative view is that the vendor is the one who is wasting time rather than the purchaser. No one is going to court over 380 euros in these circumstances. I don't see how the OP is wasting anybody's time by protecting his own interests. This case is definitely arguable. Generally speaking, property is sold lock, stock and barrel. That said, hard ball isn't for everybody, or for every occasion, but there is a place for it.

hmmm

I agree with Antoin, I fail to see why this should be your problem. If it wasn't in the contract, your solicitor should tell the vendor to take a jump.

zefer

daiixi wrote:

You should have refunded the proportion of the management fee paid from the day the sale completed. It was unfortunately missed by the vendor's solicitor. You owe the vendor this money and if he/she took you to small claims court (or any equivalent) the vendor would win and you would have to pay the money. Just pay it up and stop wasting the time of two sets of solicitors and their secretaries who have much better things to spend their time on.

How am I wasting anybody's time?? If they wanted the money, they should have not closed the sale until it was paid. 3 months later and now they decide they want it, I dont think so.. I think they are being unfair. Think they are just trying their luck. I have no issue with paying the money to the management company but I should have nothing to do with the vendor after the sale closed.

zefer

He says, she says...

zefer wrote:

If they wanted the money, they should have not closed the sale until it was paid. 3 months later and now they decide they want it, I dont think so.

You could not be more wrong.

I'd say simply read condition 27(b) of the standard law society contracts for sale which says that all outgoings shall be apportioned on a day to day basis up to the apportionment date (being in effect the closing date) and shall be the responsibility of the Vendor before then and the Purchaser afterwards. Furthermore, did you honestly think you were getting some freebie till the end of the year, or that somehow your property was exempt from service charges? Did your Solicitor really have to explain this to you? Why didn't you just read the contracts entirely for yourself if you couldn't have guessed there was a charge and now try and blame your Solicitor for not pointing out the very obvious. Should he have told you the colours on the wall and what way the sun comes through the windows in the morning?

Pay the thing.

zefer

Deleted User wrote:

He says, she says...



You could not be more wrong.

I'd say simply read condition 27(b) of the standard law society contracts for sale which says that all outgoings shall be apportioned on a day to day basis up to the apportionment date (being in effect the closing date) and shall be the responsibility of the Vendor before then and the Purchaser afterwards. Furthermore, did you honestly think you were getting some freebie till the end of the year, or that somehow your property was exempt from service charges? Did your Solicitor really have to explain this to you? Why didn't you just read the contracts entirely for yourself if you couldn't have guessed there was a charge and now try and blame your Solicitor for not pointing out the very obvious. Should he have told you the colours on the wall and what way the sun comes through the windows in the morning?

Pay the thing.

Dont be such a condescending tool. If you read the thread, you will see I have no problem paying the management company but dont see why I should have any dealings with the vendor especially now 3 months after closing. If you go to many viewings of apartments, they are plenty that specify that the mgmt fee is paid until end of year, i.e. as part of the sale

zefer

zefer wrote:

Dont be such a condescending tool.

You can keep the personal stuff off the board. After all, thems the rules. PM me the abuse in future. I was merely telling you the law and what was in the contract that you signed, but seem to be blissfully unaware of. If it's bad news, take it up with the Law Society's Conveyancing Committee, don't blame me.

zefer wrote:

dont see why I should have any dealings with the vendor especially now 3 months after closing.

Because you contracted to pay the money, not to pay the money only if demanded within a certain period.

zefer wrote:

If you go to many viewings of apartments, they are plenty that specify that the mgmt fee is paid until end of year, i.e. as part of the sale

So you were very aware that it was an issue that was relevant in purchases. Further reason not to blame your own Solicitor, unless you specifically raised it with him and he gave you incorrect advice.

zefer

Deleted User wrote:

You can keep the personal stuff off the board. After all, thems the rules. PM me the abuse in future. I was merely telling you the law and what was in the contract that you signed, but seem to be blissfully unaware of. If it's bad news, take it up with the Law Society's Conveyancing Committee, don't blame me.

I am not blaming you. All I asked for was advice, not smart arsed answers. Plus, I hardly think that constitutes "personal stuff", must be very soft skinned if you consider that to be abusive.

zefer

zefer wrote:

I am not blaming you. All I asked for was advice, not smart arsed answers. Plus, I hardly think that constitutes "personal stuff", must be very soft skinned if you consider that to be abusive.

The topic here is not you and me, or whether 'condescending tool' is abusive to the 'soft (sic) skinned'* poster, or even your opinion on Solicitors, it is whether you have to pay the money or not. Imho, you do. You signed the contracts and it is a standard condition in contracts. I would also suggest that posts stating that your Solicitor may be at fault are wide of the mark when you concede that this was an issue of which you were aware. Caveat Emptor also applies, one cannot ignore a patent issue and use that to pin the blame elsewhere afterwards - though I appreciate that it was suggested to you rather than you coming up with it.

* presume you meant 'thin skinned'.

zefer

Deleted User wrote:

The topic here is not you and me, or whether 'condescending tool' is abusive to the 'soft (sic) skinned'* poster, or even your opinion on Solicitors, it is whether you have to pay the money or not. Imho, you do. You signed the contracts and it is a standard condition in contracts. I would also suggest that posts stating that your Solicitor may be at fault are wide of the mark when you concede that this was an issue of which you were aware. Caveat Emptor also applies, one cannot ignore a patent issue and use that to pin the blame elsewhere afterwards - though I appreciate that it was suggested to you rather than you coming up with it.

* presume you meant 'thin skinned'.

Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion but not once in my posts above have I said that my solicitor is at fault...

bullrunner

did your contract give a breakdown of the purchase price? ie x for cost of aprt ,380 for mgmt fees paid,..?? if not then I think it could be reasonable to assume that the cost of mgmt fees prepaid is included in the purchase price..and you should not have to pay up.

If there was a breakdown you should check and see what it is included...the mgmt fees may not be included in which case you may well have to pay.

-but this is my view..not a legal one...personally i think that if the vendor wanted the money they should have looked for it at the point of sale..not 3 mths later. Sounds to me like they paid it ..forgot about it and only recently got a letter/email from the mgmt company asking for next years fees and then remembered that they paid a full year for last year!

antoinolachtnai

The clause you quote above only mentions a procedure for apportionment, it doesn't mention a procedure for settlement. If this is all there is, then the purchaser could suggest that the vendor settle the matter with the management company.

There is a lot of theory kicking around here. In practice, I don't see how the vendor can really settle the situation. Even if he went to court (which he won't) he might not win. I would say that caveat vendor applies here moreso than caveat emptor.

And everybody should just calm down. It's just a couple of hundred euros.

zefer

antoinolachtnai wrote:

And everybody should just calm down. It's just a couple of hundred euros.

You want to pay it so? Solve all the disagreements!!

antoinolachtnai

Well you can forward me the bill if you like ...

daiixi

zefer wrote:

How am I wasting anybody's time?? If they wanted the money, they should have not closed the sale until it was paid. 3 months later and now they decide they want it, I dont think so.. I think they are being unfair. Think they are just trying their luck. I have no issue with paying the money to the management company but I should have nothing to do with the vendor after the sale closed.

Sorry mate but I used to be a conveyancing secretary. Sometimes managing agents refund the money directly to the vendor and the vendor could quite possibly have been told that they would have been but now the managing agents may be telling the vendor to be refunded through you. In that case you would be billed for your share of the management fee. However sometimes things just get missed. Either way by refusing to pay the money you are now causing your solicitor and his/her secretary to do more work which they are not getting paid for and that's a waste of their time. If you have no issue paying the money then just pay it.

Sleepy

daiixi wrote:

Either way by refusing to pay the money you are now causing your solicitor and his/her secretary to do more work which they are not getting paid for and that's a waste of their time.

TBH, that's a good enough reason to hold things up imho.

homeOwner

daiixi wrote:

Either way by refusing to pay the money you are now causing your solicitor and his/her secretary to do more work which they are not getting paid for and that's a waste of their time. If you have no issue paying the money then just pay it.

Surely it was the job of the vendor's solicitor to make sure that this money was accounted for in the sale. He was already paid for his work.


Why should the Op have to rectify the problem for everyone, he owes his money to the management company not the vendor. And until such time as the management company bill him for the money, I dont see that he should pay it. There are too many people getting away with not doing their jobs properly when it comes to the buying and selling of houses. It is an extremely frustrating and expensive process and makes a fortune for solicitors. If I messed up like that in my job there would be repercussions for me financially (no bonus, no pay rise, etc...) - maybe the solicitor will be more careful for his next client.

jimmycrackcorm

homeOwner wrote:

Surely it was the job of the vendor's solicitor to make sure that this money was accounted for in the sale. He was already paid for his work.


Why should the Op have to rectify the problem for everyone, he owes his money to the management company not the vendor. And until such time as the management company bill him for the money, I dont see that he should pay it. There are too many people getting away with not doing their jobs properly when it comes to the buying and selling of houses. It is an extremely frustrating and expensive process and makes a fortune for solicitors. If I messed up like that in my job there would be repercussions for me financially (no bonus, no pay rise, etc...) - maybe the solicitor will be more careful for his next client.

I'd agree with this. The vendor paid the money to the management company and that is who they should look to get it back from. Really though you need to check the sale documentation for any relevant terms and conditions.

dame

If you buy a car that's taxed for another few months you wouldn't be paying that money back to the vendor would you? If it was me I'd say it was the vendor's own tough luck. They can argue to get their money back from the management company if they like but not from you months down the line.