Here's one for yiz

Brayruit

This hand has been bothering me for a few weeks... I basically can't decide if I played it really badly or just quite badly... Would like one or two opinions.

€400 buy-in live tournament.

About 25 players left from orginal 90. My stack is about 24k... a bit below the average. BB has maybe 2k more.

Very lively table, good fun, lots of chat. I have been picked out (and somewhat picked on) as a rock which is fairly accurate. Most players have been at the table for while and have a reasonable handle on who is playing how...

Anyway blinds are at 500/1000 with a 100 ante. Table is 9 handed so the starting pot is 2400. I haven't been in a hand for about 2 rounds. On the hand in question, I am 2 off the button. It's folded around to me and I look down at K9c. Pretty mediocre, but I reckon I'll have a stab this time and throw in 3k (I tend to vary my raises pretty randomly between 2x and 5x and am fairly confident that the size of the raise does not add any information).

Fold, fold, SB folds and the BB puts another 2k into the 5400 pot to call.

Flop comes 668 rainbow, no clubs.

BB bets 3k into the 7400 pot.

I should add that the BB is a known top player.

...... ?

BigCityBanker

Without a read you have noting to call with and imo the only option is to instafold. Others may differ but I couldnt even contemplate a call. Some may advocate a push. Me - I fold.

Tipperarymike

given that you say the bb is a known top player , therefore he is much more likely to have pegged as a rock , if thats how your image is at that time. I agree with lord that he is most likely trying to take it away from you there esp given that the flop is somewhat raggy and it makes it very tough for you to call with either a six or an over board and as Big said it doesnt really matter what you peg him for in return as you know you got jack all yourself. Has to be an insta fold for me too

Brayruit

Tipperarymike wrote:

with either a six or an over board

Do you mean "without a six or an overpair"?

Anyways.... I was pretty sure he was clued in that I am a tight player and it was quite likely that he was trying to push me off... so I thought there was a high prob that he had not much... 2 overcards seemed most likely to me...

Wouldn't that mean that a raise to about 8k would be a decent play?

Tipperarymike

yeah good point thats what i meant alright. That mistype sums up my poker most days, mean to do one thing, but end up doing the other which is invariably the wrong thing. As big said you aint beating an awful lot at this point, plus these situations can quickly turn into a , he figured, you figured and he refigured and you end up risking your tourney life with K 9, not ideal really. With your image and the amount in the starting pots at this point, I would nearly advocate cutting your losses and using your image to pick up that loss in another pot. Though I imagine more aggressive players with be up for repotting it

BigCityBanker

What did you think of his bet of 3k?

A) He put you on AK / AQ and reckoned you couldnt call a bet that you missed the flop?
He wants a caller and its a small enogh bet for you to call.
C) He thinks you will see 3k as a week bet spurring you to push when in fast he has a 6 and wants exactly this action.

If it were me I would ask myself if I needed to be involved in the hand from here on? I would quickly answer NO and fold. If he shows a bluff so be it - he had Irish position on ya!!

Brayruit

BigCityBanker wrote:

What did you think of his bet of 3k?

A) He put you on AK / AQ and reckoned you couldnt call a bet that you missed the flop?
He wants a caller and its a small enogh bet for you to call.
C) He thinks you will see 3k as a week bet spurring you to push when in fast he has a 6 and wants exactly this action.

If it were me I would ask myself if I needed to be involved in the hand from here on? I would quickly answer NO and fold. If he shows a bluff so be it - he had Irish position on ya!!

I thought (A)

Hectorjelly

who was the player
how good is he
what type of player is he
have you ever seen him minreraise out of the blinds before
has anyone being doing it at the table (minreraising)
do you think you looked nervous when you raised
how had he been playing previously


I think that your flat call preflop really limits your range, he can be pretty sure you dont have a great hand. So pushing now looks like a bluff, i really doubt he is folding JJ or similar here, maybe even calling with AK/AQ. I prefer a push preflop, or just fold this flop.

Lex

I read it that the BB flat called?? Am I right that the BB puts "another" 2k into the 5k pot should be read as a call?

Brayruit

Hectorjelly wrote:

who was the player
how good is he
what type of player is he
have you ever seen him minreraise out of the blinds before
has anyone being doing it at the table (minreraising)
do you think you looked nervous when you raised
how had he been playing previously


I think that your flat call preflop really limits your range, he can be pretty sure you dont have a great hand. So pushing now looks like a bluff, i really doubt he is folding JJ or similar here, maybe even calling with AK/AQ. I prefer a push preflop, or just fold this flop.

The player was Damo Kavanagh
He is excellent

The rest of the questions seem to have the action back to front... I open raised, he called in the BB. Then he bet out after the flop...

Please post again along the same lines... I am interested in your line of questioning.

Thanks.

Brayruit

Lex wrote:

I read it that the BB flat called?? Am I right that the BB puts "another" 2k into the 5k pot should be read as a call?

Yes. Thanks... will edit to make clearer.

Ollieboy

Brayruit wrote:

The player was Damo Kavanagh
He is excellent

The rest of the questions seem to have the action back to front... I open raised, he called in the BB. Then he bet out after the flop...

Please post again along the same lines... I am interested in your line of questioning.

Thanks.

Damo was playing very well that night, I'm guessing this is the Lenister Cup, he was playing aggressive that night on the flop and betting anything that move, he outdrawn me 3 times that night. So a push in the flop would have been a bad move and he has you down as a rock, once he called your raise he had you beat unless you hit the flop. Damo would also play a big hand this way, anything from JJ upwards.

Hectorjelly

Brayruit wrote:

The player was Damo Kavanagh
He is excellent

The rest of the questions seem to have the action back to front... I open raised, he called in the BB. Then he bet out after the flop...

Please post again along the same lines... I am interested in your line of questioning.

Thanks.

Oh sorry, I managed to compeletely misread the action. In that case I think you should raise him. Unless during the hand you have signalled weakness somehow (with body language) then you can win the hand a number of ways.
a) he may well be bluffing, thinking he can push you off AK/AQ. He might not believe you, but he needs something to call you with
b) he might have a marginal hand that will probably fold to a raise. Also your K is almost certainly good so you have some outs. Your tight image means I think this is quite likely.

If a very aggressive player posted this hand then my advice would be different. His image would be totally different, and so you have to interpret a good players actions differently. Against you I really think its unlikely graham has a hand here, he knows you are tight and will expect you to fold if you missed. That flop clearly is unlikely to have hit you. So he would be much better off check raising with a real hand; unless he is playing very cautiously with a hand like JJ, and if so the only reason to lead is either to induce a raise and call (very unlikely against you) or so he can fold to a reraise.

So all in all providing you can raise and make it look strong, I think you should raise. He will be trapping you from time to time with KK but I think raising is better. I wouldnt push, it looks fishy. Make it 15k to go or something similar.

I have three provisios though
a) if you think you may look like a donk who has gone a bit mad with AK then just fold.
b) if people have been making FAR too much of your tight image, I would just fold as it would be obvious you are aware of your imahe and may be making a play
c) as I said before its important you are able to resist not looking weak.

Hectorjelly

Ollieboy wrote:

Damo was playing very well that night, I'm guessing this is the Lenister Cup, he was playing aggressive that night on the flop and betting anything that move, he outdrawn me 3 times that night. So a push in the flop would have been a bad move and he has you down as a rock, once he called your raise he had you beat unless you hit the flop. Damo would also play a big hand this way, anything from JJ upwards.

If he was playing well, and playing aggressively, its far more likely he has no hand here; or a small pair.

Brayruit

Hectorjelly wrote:

Oh sorry, I managed to compeletely misread the action. In that case I think you should raise him. Unless during the hand you have signalled weakness somehow (with body language) then you can win the hand a number of ways.
a) he may well be bluffing, thinking he can push you off AK/AQ. He might not believe you, but he needs something to call you with
b) he might have a marginal hand that will probably fold to a raise. Also your K is almost certainly good so you have some outs. Your tight image means I think this is quite likely.

If a very aggressive player posted this hand then my advice would be different. His image would be totally different, and so you have to interpret a good players actions differently. Against you I really think its unlikely graham has a hand here, he knows you are tight and will expect you to fold if you missed. That flop clearly is unlikely to have hit you. So he would be much better off check raising with a real hand; unless he is playing very cautiously with a hand like JJ, and if so the only reason to lead is either to induce a raise and call (very unlikely against you) or so he can fold to a reraise.

So all in all providing you can raise and make it look strong, I think you should raise. He will be trapping you from time to time with KK but I think raising is better. I wouldnt push, it looks fishy. Make it 15k to go or something similar.

I have three provisios though
a) if you think you may look like a donk who has gone a bit mad with AK then just fold.
b) if people have been making FAR too much of your tight image, I would just fold as it would be obvious you are aware of your imahe and may be making a play
c) as I said before its important you are able to resist not looking weak.

I think that that is an excellent summary, thanks.

What I actually did was push BUT...
a) is possible
b) I think is actually spot on... being called a rock over and over just went to my head
c) good point

Damo instacalled with 55. That actually left me with lots of outs (3Ks, 39s, 38s) so I was about a 60-40 dog... cudda been worse... but so what I missed.

Damo said he put me on 2 overcards which was of course correct... and went on to win the whole thing (Leinster Open).

Brayruit

Thanks for replies....

I suppose I wanted some reassurance that it wasn't the worst push in history and maybe got it... although now I think that the ranking of courses of action were actually:
1=) Fold
1=) Raise to about 8k
3) Push
4) Call

HJ's comment that I was taking too obvious advantage of my image is v. interesting - on reflection that might be the biggest mistake.

I think that Damo's call was good with 55 though.... I sincerely do not think that he had a tell on me, but was prepared to back his read that I just had 2 overs and gamble with the 60/40 edge (he may have forgotten that the 8s were v. likely to be outs for me).

Ollieboy

Hectorjelly wrote:

If he was playing well, and playing aggressively, its far more likely he has no hand here; or a small pair.

I agree Darragh and I think your right and its a profitable play to re-raise, but it takes a lot of balls to make that move.

Damo was playing a little reckless that night from 1/2 way onwards, so he would have called with a widerange of hands here, like 55.....


A push is a very brave play and I'm guessing a profitable play in this position, but I would rather fold and wait for a better chance.

ollyk1

I think you have a tell.

Brayruit

ollyk1 wrote:

I think you have a tell.

lol... I think you would know... but surely you would have told me!

califano

Brayruit wrote:

but surely you would have told me!

Pah!. Read nicnicnic's signature. Thats ollyk1 that is!.

Hectorjelly

Ollieboy wrote:

I agree Darragh and I think your right and its a profitable play to re-raise, but it takes a lot of balls to make that move.

Damo was playing a little reckless that night from 1/2 way onwards, so he would have called with a widerange of hands here, like 55.....


A push is a very brave play and I'm guessing a profitable play in this position, but I would rather fold and wait for a better chance.

well if hes going to call with 55 then you may of been right!

cardshark202

Surely if hes a good player he doesn't min-re-raise preflop?

phantom_lord

cardshark202 wrote:

Surely if hes a good player he doesn't min-re-raise preflop?

He didn't, he just called.

cardshark202

phantom_lord wrote:

He didn't, he just called.

read it again plz

phantom_lord

Brayruit wrote:

Anyway blinds are at 500/1000


I reckon I'll have a stab this time and throw in 3k....



....and the BB puts another 2k into the 5400 pot to call....

Where's the min-reraise?

cardshark202

phantom_lord wrote:

Where's the min-reraise?

oops

willis

I like the push

Btw, is a call ever any good here...lets see how fruity the villain gets on the turn? Its a smallish bet and we can peel 1 off and assess the turn

Flushdraw

Damo loves to play flops. He'll call a lot of small raises with marginal hands because he's so confident he can outplay his opponent post-flop. He would have called here with any 2 cards, 6x8x is as likely as any other 2 cards, and he leads out at the flop the majority of the time.

If youre going to take a stab at Damo's BB, you have you have to make it a decent raise so youre not giving him value to call. The amount of times he leads into a raiser in tournaments, makes this play extremely profitable for him.

Most of the time, he will check raise here with a big hand, but he fished for information with his small bet and your allin looked like you missed and you were trying to buy the pot. Raise to about 12k and Damo would probably fold this hand.

Ollieboy

willis wrote:

I like the push

Btw, is a call ever any good here...lets see how fruity the villain gets on the turn? Its a smallish bet and we can peel 1 off and assess the turn

A call would have slowed him down in this hand and he might have allowed you to take it away from him on the turn with a bet, but in general it would be a poor play to flat call a bet with nothing.

In this hand, his rock image played back at him, he would have got paid if he was holding a big pair.

Rnger

Flushdraw wrote:

Most of the time, he will check raise here with a big hand, but he fished for information with his small bet and your allin looked like you missed and you were trying to buy the pot. Raise to about 12k and Damo would probably fold this hand.

your only left with 8k after such a bet, so going all-in has pretty much the same effect. Will you fold if he pushes for your last 8k? probably not so just push now

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ollyk1

Brayruit wrote:

lol... I think you would know... but surely you would have told me!

All kidding aside I think the push may have been a tell, also you may have been wearing some frustration on your face with the "rock talk" and the not playing a hand in two orbits. I've seen you get a little tilty in these spots before and push to get yourself out of trouble and its a little bit obvious. (I'm going soft). It's a big call by him so you have to ask yourself some questions I feel.

If you had TT+ here would you push on a 668 board? (Well if he's going to call you with 55 maybe you would. lol) I think you should raise to 10k.

How did you play the last big pair you got at this table? Did it get shown down??

Edit: Just to clarify my thoughts on the above

You have to ask yourself why are you raising this guy if hes going to play flops with you and make big calls for most of his chips and is playing wild or loose? Was there nobody playing a little tighter or did you not pick up on what Ollieboy had picked up on?

His flop bet looks weak to me like he's asking a question and in the words of a certain Bohs fan "I like to give them an answer". Did he make the call instantly or did he give you a staredown and make the call? If he took his time and made a big calculated call I think you need to reflect on this hand a little more because you are leaking info somehow (whether its the bet sizes or the body language or both). If he made a tilty "I think he has AK and I'm going to gamble call" well thems the breaks and it was hard luck and a little bit of bad timing on your behalf.

This is a move which should work in the right spot and is a very necessary move to have in the armoury, as you know, (I don't like the push here personally as its not consistent with what I'd do with a big hand or a crap hand) so if the preflop aggression and raising the info bet on the flop hasn't worked in this spot (i.e. where the opponent has a weak and very foldable holding) its for one of two reasons imho;

1. Your timing is bad and you pulled the move aginst a normally good but perhaps semi tilting player.
2. You have a tell.

What do you think?

Brayruit

ollyk1 wrote:

All kidding aside I think the push may have been a tell, also you may have been wearing some frustration on your face with the "rock talk" and the not playing a hand in two orbits. I've seen you get a little tilty in these spots before and push to get yourself out of trouble and its a little bit obvious. (I'm going soft). It's a big call by him so you have to ask yourself some questions I feel.

If you had TT+ here would you push on a 668 board? (Well if he's going to call you with 55 maybe you would. lol) I think you should raise to 10k.

How did you play the last big pair you got at this table? Did it get shown down??

I don't know that the push was a tell as such... if he's going to make a good analysis, so be it.

The rock talk did not frustrate me, really... I don't mind being seen as a rock as my bets tend to get some respect... in theory it should allow me to steal a bit later in the day and if anything I do not do that enough.

As for not playing a hand for 2 orbits... I can (and do) live with that as long as my stack is in reasonable shape. I was not frustrated by that either.

The point about me going a bit tilty when I get involved at all is fair comment.
"Pushing to get out of trouble" is often where I meet my maker in these tournaments.

I'm glad you think that it was a big call by Damo. At the time I credited him with a big call, but when I thought about it later I began to think that I had actually given him an easy call and that I had made a really bad play.

Re-reading some of the comments above a case has been made for almost every play: fold, call (and bet the turn), big raise, push. My conclusion is that the right decision here was much more to do with table image of both players and assessments of each others' play.

And now a whinge: the best pair I had had in about 6 hours of play had been a pair of eights (which I folded to a raise and re-raise) so the question of the last time I had a big pair does not arise :mad:

PS what was the comment about nicnicnic's signature? I can't find it.

Flushdraw

Rnger wrote:

your only left with 8k after such a bet, so going all-in has pretty much the same effect. Will you fold if he pushes for your last 8k? probably not so just push now

Thats not the point i'm making...A push by Bay here, after playing so tight, would look like a bet with AK or similar whereas a 12K bet IMO looks like a bet with a bigger pair rather than just a steal attempt. I think think Damo folds here to a reraise but makes a good read and calls the allin.

Rnger : I dont fold here to a push by Damo, you have to call but theres a far better chance of getting him to fold with a strong reraise