Conserve energy to reduce your bill..yeah right

BANZAI_RUNNER

Forgive me if i seem to be anti green , but i feel i must bitch about this particular issue, for the past while now everytime you turn on the tv or radio there is an ad about how you could cut 20 % of your energy bill if you switch off the tv ect as they use 20% of their power usage in standby mode, so finally i manage to convince my family and friends to do this and what happens.......The ESB request a 20% increase in their prices , why, because their profits are down , why because people are being more energy efficient, so their solution is well if they were paying 20% more before they became efficient then to hell with them lets request an increase of 20%, they know people are going to become even more energy efficient , so they are going to milk us for every cent they can get.
I have long since changed all the bulbs to cfl , I have the house insulated to the required standards, all my main appliances are A and AA rated, but my bills are more expensive now then they ever were, so my next step is to purchase a generator , after all the cost of oil has dropped considerably, i'm open to suggestions and opinions

MrJoeSoap

And the solution?

Be even more energy efficient to show the prats what you think of them! Its a win-win situation.

BANZAI_RUNNER

but the more efficient we get , the more their profits drop, therefore the more they charge us to make up the difference, the only people winning are the shareholders
I have looked into wind turbines and have contacted my local authority "Clare County Council" and all i'm getting is the run around , no one can tell me if i need planning permission to erect them , it seems that no one want to make the decision and are hoping i will go away

Thrill

People are recycling now more than they ever where and yet the price of rubbish disposal has gone through the roof, and i suspect another increase this year. I would like to know is how much the recycle companies make out of the stuff they get off of us for free? Going green has become a costly business.

BANZAI_RUNNER

this country is going to hell on a recycling bandwagon, we have a government who "talk" about green issues , and tell us all what we should be doing , but in reality just try to do anything and everyone else is ripping you off, rubbish collection , we do all the work seperating everything into the correct bin and then get robbed by the companies collecting it , we become energy efficient and we get robbed by the supplier , then we hear that Ethanol is the wave of the future for transport, and this is a pet gripe of mine , we had sugar beet factories which could have easily produced Ethanol with a little retrofitting , but what does our government do ....they close them down , then sell them to companies which demolish them
And as for the farce regarding the oil and gas reserves off the west coast, our government gives up any rights to them back in the 80's , so we have a huge natural resource off our coast , which
1. we have no rights to
2. we also gave up our rights to purchase the product at 50% of the market value
3. we gave 100% tax breaks to the companies who bring it ashore
I suppose the upside to this is at least we dont have the US as our best friend protecting our oil and gas supplies.....

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote:

The ESB request a 20% increase in their prices , why, because their profits are down , why because people are being more energy efficient,

i think you might be wrong here. AFAIK they have put up the price because of world fuel prices, labour costs and infrastructure costs.
nothing to do with you turning off your TV at night. Sorry.

BANZAI_RUNNER

i

think you might be wrong here. AFAIK they have put up the price because of world fuel prices, labour costs and infrastructure costs.
nothing to do with you turning off your TV at night. Sorry.

Actually you are wrong, because the energy regulator has said publically that the reason for the the increase is because of their profit margin . The regulator uses a formula in working out the increases which allows for energy costs, profit margins etc
now as regards the cost of oil , that has fallen by about 17% in the recent months, so the ESB cant justify their increase on that , as for their labour costs there was a story carried in one or the papers regarding them hiring foreign nationals and NOT paying them the BASIC wage , so i guess labour costs are not the problem, so now lets look at infrastructure they used that excuse to cover earlier price increases, so whats left ....lets see .....profits or rather lack of profits, i know we all like to think that there are all kinds of reasons for energy price increases but lets face it the bottom line is MONEY and anyone in business who says otherwise is bullsh1tting. So lets all be green , lets be greener than ever as our bank accounts turn RED with the unjustified price increases
p.s. just remember the gas price increases on 1st October, they citied high fuel cost on the international market i.e price of oil , cost of purchasing gas from international markets, as i said earlier oil had dropped by about 17% , and international gas prices had fallen , so when asked to reconsider/postpone the increase, they replied NO

stipey

I have looked into wind turbines and have contacted my local authority "Clare County Council" and all i'm getting is the run around , no one can tell me if i need planning permission to erect them , it seems that no one want to make the decision and are hoping i will go away

Its easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission - go for it.

BANZAI_RUNNER

Its easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission - go for it

thats all well and good until they serve you with enforcement proceedings to take it down , and if that happens you will probably not get planning permission if you apply at a later date, trust me i have had to deal with them

silverharp

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote:

i

p.s. just remember the gas price increases on 1st October, they citied high fuel cost on the international market i.e price of oil , cost of purchasing gas from international markets, as i said earlier oil had dropped by about 17% , and international gas prices had fallen , so when asked to reconsider/postpone the increase, they replied NO

I think your analysis is too simplistic. All energy companies hedge forward so they rarely pay the spot price. The ESB is grossly inefficient but saving energy on an individual basis does not encouage them to up prices.

BANZAI_RUNNER

I think your analysis is too simplistic. All energy companies hedge forward so they rarely pay the spot price. The ESB is grossly inefficient but saving energy on an individual basis does not encouage them to up prices.

That may well be the case , but having checked this site www.advfn.com oil prices are staying low for the near future i.e Dec and Jan , but they are still looking for their increase

ardara1

Sceptissism, skep, sceptisis - you've spotted the bull****! We should start a political movement!

Riding a bicycle leaves room for the 4x4 - thats all -

I changed all my bulbs to EE bulbs and and sat back contented - the Bas---- next door's boasting that he's puting 20000 bulbs on his house this Christmas!

The only way to cut carbon is by rationing - but then you're really goin to hurt the voters! - Sticking damned windmills on your roof and putting polluting GSHP in you lawn looks good for the environment - thats'll satisfy them.

Wear vests, turn down the heating, buy local food, walk - thats a start

Because the bull is there it doesn't mean to stop trying - the likes of Fingal CoCo asking for 30% input from renewables it going to prove a fiasco when the technologies all fail eventually - it'll damage the cause - but hey - it looks good!

Kelter

i hate to burst your bubble, but the more energy we use the less profitable the esb is. that is a fact. They are obliged to provide us with elec, no matter what. The more demand there is, the more they have to use less economic power stations.

The barrel of oil went up from the mid 20s in 2004. Price hike, not really, I would say we are being ever more subsidised from the price hikes we would have seen due to the esb's exceptionally conservative practice of buying fuel 5 years in advance.

By the way, I don't work for, or have ever worked for the esb, I just work in the energy business.

Gurgle

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote:

if you switch off the tv ect as they use 20% of their power usage in standby mode

I'm afraid this is pure fantasy.
The wording iirc was that electronic appliances can use up to 20% in standby mode. The only appliance where this is true is the PC, and standby mode for a PC is not the same as standby mode for anything else - its still turned on, with most parts running.

TV/Radio/Video/DVD uses between 1% and 10% of its running power when in standby mode, and that running power is nothing compared to e.g. washing machine, tumble dryer, immersion heater, vacuum cleaner, oven, electric shower etc.

I think the idea of pulling the plugs out when not in use comes down to pointless feel-good busy work.

Kelter

gurgle, I'm sorry but I must hole heartedly disagree. You are right that most standby appliances use a small amount of energy per hour when they are on standby, I've measure my own tv to be a little under 3%, but if you also factor in the amount of time it is likely to be switched on versus on standby then you get a very different result


My TV is switched on for about 3hrs per day.
If it were on standby for 21 hours per day

3hr*100units = 300
21hr*3units = 63


63/300 = 21% of energy was used while on standby


now I know some of you are thinking that you use your tv for more than 3 hours a day.. but if you take into account days that you do not use it at all... then you will see that that is not an unreasonable figure.

Clare gunner

, then we hear that Ethanol is the wave of the future for transport, and this is a pet gripe of mine , we had sugar beet factories which could have easily produced Ethanol with a little retrofitting , but what does our government do ....they close them down , then sell them to companies which demolish

them

I thought about that too,and thought it was wrong.Until you put a thought of the second law of thermodymanics into place .There is no point in putting more energy into a procedure /product/scheme,if your net result is less gain /energy than what you put in. In other words,how much does itcost to retrofit the sugar plant,transport the beet from all over using fossil fuel,POWER the plant with fossil fuel to produce a eco friendly product,but with less power in your engine than normal fossil fuel,and then distribute this inferior product to a nationwide distributor?? You are putting more in than you are getting out.By rights ,we have to think small,rather than big here.It is estimated to equal one nuke power plant[agghhh evil !!!] we would need a field of windmills the size of Dublin:eek: :eek: .
BUT,if say you were living in a small community and you were to calculate the amount of power needed for the fammilies and for excess demand,and you had a good windy hill or a good stream,you could set up an eco friendly community power supply.That is the way I see alt power going,small and individual.Ditto for alcholol/bio diesel production,no point in moving tons of beet hundreds of miles,to gain a product that requires double the amount to get it back to your farm to do the work of replanting your beet crop.Would be better if three farms clubbed together,agreed to grow one crop of beet,bought a small distilling plant,used the product locally to power their equipment,and sold the surplus to the surrounding markets.

BTW your windmill height can be on a 3 m pole with single blade,no pp required.Doesnt specify wether it is roof or ground mounted.This came from the Irish Govt appx two weeks ago.Was in the Indo.

Gurgle

Kelter wrote:

My TV is switched on for about 3hrs per day.
If it were on standby for 21 hours per day

3hr*100units = 300
21hr*3units = 63

63/300 = 21% of energy was used while on standby

Ah yes, good point.

Gurgle

Clare gunner wrote:

transport the beet from all over using fossil fuel,POWER the plant with fossil fuel to produce a eco friendly product

Presumably, as the plant is making fossil fuel it would use its own product rather than the fossil fuel which is carried by tankers from the middle east.

Clare gunner wrote:

It is estimated to equal one nuke power plant[agghhh evil !!!] we would need a field of windmills the size of Dublin:eek: :eek:

But while a wind-farm takes up a large area, it doesn't really occupy that area, only the air above it. The actual footprint of each generator is very small compared to the clearance needed between them. The ground beneath the wind-vanes can easily be used for agriculture/industry.

Clare gunner wrote:

Would be better if three farms clubbed together,agreed to grow one crop of beet,bought a small distilling plant,used the product locally to power their equipment,and sold the surplus to the surrounding markets.

Economy of scale.

silverharp

Clare gunner wrote:

them

I thought about that too,and thought it was wrong.Until you put a thought of the second law of thermodymanics into place .There is no point in putting more energy into a procedure /product/scheme,if your net result is less gain /energy than what you put in.

That depends, for instance using wind power to pump water up a hill to use as Hydro power might not look effecient on paper, however once you've used the "cheap oil" to build all the capital equipment, then you have a useable backup power system depite the fact it may look like financial madness.

bonkey

silverharp wrote:

That depends, for instance using wind power to pump water up a hill to use as Hydro power might not look effecient on paper, however once you've used the "cheap oil" to build all the capital equipment, then you have a useable backup power system depite the fact it may look like financial madness.

Its nothing to do with cheap oil.

Its to do with the cost of reducing generation capacity / "wasting" free generation (in the case of hydro) when there is a shortage of demand (at night), weighed against the cost of alternate rapid-availabilty surge-covering generation capacity to cover what Turlough Hill covers.

Going back to the OP...

The notion that prices are increasing because demand is too low is farcical. Ireland needs more generation capacity than it currently has to meet current demand.

For several years now, ESB has been using "portable" gas turbines to meet the winter shortfall. (There were political reasons why they didn't build new stations instead).

Reduction in demand is a godsend to ESB, not a problem.

At the end fo the day though, if you think reducing your usage is counter-productive, then you go right ahead and do nothing. You're not going to stop prices rising, but if it makes you feel better to be paying the new (higher) rate on your old (higher) consumption, giving you a lose-lose scenario, you go right ahead.

Just don't complain that you're using 20% more electricity and getting hit by the pay increase as well. Its what will happen, but apparently its what you want.

Incidentally - your complaint is suggesting you believe that prices go up when supply exceeds demand. Do you think they come down when demand exceeds supply as well?

If so I would suggest you have your market economics theory reversed.

silverharp

bonkey wrote:

Its nothing to do with cheap oil.

Its to do with the cost of reducing generation capacity / "wasting" free generation (in the case of hydro) when there is a shortage of demand (at night), weighed against the cost of alternate rapid-availabilty surge-covering generation capacity to cover what Turlough Hill covers.

In the context of energy in v energy out it does, a wind based system as an example with some kind of storage solution may not provide a positive return of energy if one considers the energy required to build it however it may still be worth doing while you have a cheap energy source.
Another example is tar sands oil in Canada where trapped gas is used to extract the oil, the energy return can be negetive but the "useless gas" is used to help produce the oil. it doesn't make sense from the 2nd law of thermo. but it still happens.

BANZAI_RUNNER

So I finally get an answer from Clare County Council regarding planning permission for a wind turbine, and guess what?????? I NEED planning permission, eventhough I told them about how there is now legislation to allow them without planning permission, but they said as far as they are concerned i will need to submit an application for planning permission, and if i dont , and go ahead and erect one they will issue enforcement proceedings against me

Clare gunner

Gurgle wrote:

Presumably, as the plant is making fossil fuel it would use its own product rather than the fossil fuel which is carried by tankers from the middle east.

You mean making bio fuel??What I am saying is Bio fuel hasnt got the bang for the buck as fossil fuel has in our current engines.In other words it will proably cost two tankloads of bio fuel to deliver one tankload of biofuel to the gas station.Unless we develop alcohol engines that have the same capability as current fossil fuels,they wont be efficent as current fossil fuels.
This is not a feasible idea for massive centralised production.

But while a wind-farm takes up a large area, it doesn't really occupy that area, only the air above it. The actual footprint of each generator is very small compared to the clearance needed between them. The ground beneath the wind-vanes can easily be used for agriculture/industry.

And the insurance risk of allowing Farmer Brown to harvest his crops under a giant bird slicer??Or working in a factory under a 120ft whirling blade?If it was feasible the Germans would have allowed it.Land is more expensive than over here.I could see alot of trouble on that one.Also Wind turbines are generally put up on hills where no one would generally conduct industry or farm.So that would mean wind farms on every hill,mountain and bank off the coast of Ireland,to power Dublin.How much nimbyism will that cause.Rather different if local communities put up their own wind plant in an area they all agreed on by local consensus and are directly benefitting from it's product.Be it wind ,hydro,or bio fuel.

Clare gunner

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote:

So I finally get an answer from Clare County Council regarding planning permission for a wind turbine, and guess what?????? I NEED planning permission, eventhough I told them about how there is now legislation to allow them without planning permission, but they said as far as they are concerned i will need to submit an application for planning permission, and if i dont , and go ahead and erect one they will issue enforcement proceedings against me

Get onto one of your TDs about this and find the info on this.Challange them on this,and ask them to explain how then a 12 metere TV antenna mast in a private house does not need PP and why does a 3metre wind turbine? Clare council are totally anal anyway to deal with.They BS on about protecting the enviroment of Clare,and eco this and eco that.But when the rubber meets the road they havent a clue,or go the ostrich mode.Stick head in sand and hope it will go away,or brown paper envelope it to put a 100 hideous holiday homes on beautiful scenic areas like Kilkee,so "Dub 4 man" can spend a week out of 51 weeks in de 100 grand holier home.:mad:

BANZAI_RUNNER

i'll be phoning the dept of environment toady to get clarification on this issue , and i'm requesting it in writing , because apparently clare county council can over rule the government whenever they feel like it , then its off to the planning office and see what they have to say

Get onto one of your TDs about this and find the info on this.Challange them on this,

TDs in Clare are about as useful as a chocolate fireguard,

Gurgle

Clare gunner wrote:

it will proably cost two tankloads of bio fuel to deliver one tankload of biofuel.

You're making that up.
-edit-
Ah, here we go:

A prominent USDA/DOE study shows for every unit of fossil fuel used to make biodiesel, 3.2 units of energy are gained in energy output. That's a 320% increase and includes soybean planting, harvesting, fuel production and transportation.

link

Clare gunner wrote:

And the insurance risk of allowing Farmer Brown to harvest his crops under a giant bird slicer??Or working in a factory under a 120ft whirling blade?If it was feasible the Germans would have allowed it.

I spent a few minutes googling wind farms in Germany, and I can't find anything that says whether the land beneath is used for agriculture or left bare.
In this picture at least, the green stuff at the bottom looks like grass that has had animals grazing on it.

Have you a link to any site that says otherwise?

Clare gunner

Gurgle wrote:

You're making that up.
-edit-
Ah, here we go:

link

Righhtttt.From the people who are really big into bio diesel.Which is very true.But I was talking about producing ALCOHOL,and using the one decrepit sugar plant in Ireland.Bio diesel is compleatly different.Can we decide which fuel we will discuss???I am not anti any alt fuel or power source.Just pointing out the practicalities and the problems.Biggest one being the economic problem and it's production method,and a total fallacy to belive we can build a huge refinery that will have bio fuel coming out of it like petrol or diesel does at the moment,unless we are going to make some very drastic changes to our infrastructure,farming methods,lifestyles and society in general.

I spent a few minutes googling wind farms in Germany, and I can't find anything that says whether the land beneath is used for agriculture or left bare.
In this picture at least, the green stuff at the bottom looks like grass that has had animals grazing on it.

That pic happens to be up in North Germany ASFIK,along the Costal regions.Yeah cattle graze there,but you dont exactly see a bunch of houses there do you?It is a windswept area,not a huge pouplation either.Ergo many windfarms.

Have you a link to any site that says otherwise

]

No:( just common sense,and a realistic outlook that it is folly to be building BIG in alt energy programmes.And having a few years experiance in alt fuel /energy production living with it on a home grown self suffiency level long before it was Hip and green here in Ireland .You???

ardara1

OK - you've talked us into it - Ireland goes green and starts producing home grown fuel -

It's cheaper in the Phillipines and S America where they've cut down acres of rainforest to produce it - Buring the indigenous forests have produced a very substanial percentasge of the CO2 we've seen over the past 10 years already.

Do we stop it from being imported - NO WE CAN'T - it's a business, trade cant be hindered.

Ration CO2 useage.

Oldtree

Originally Posted by BANZAI_RUNNER
So I finally get an answer from Clare County Council regarding planning permission for a wind turbine, and guess what?????? I NEED planning permission, eventhough I told them about how there is now legislation to allow them without planning permission, but they said as far as they are concerned i will need to submit an application for planning permission, and if i dont , and go ahead and erect one they will issue enforcement proceedings against me
i'll be phoning the dept of environment toady to get clarification on this issue , and i'm requesting it in writing , because apparently clare county council can over rule the government whenever they feel like it , then its off to the planning office and see what they have to say

You seem to have two options:
1. put up the turbine in the confident knowledge of the legislation, and let CCC serve you with a enforcement notice. Ignore this and when they contact their solicitors they will be brought up to date.
2. Apply for planning, let them refuse you and take it to an bord plenala, again allowing CCC to be brought up to date.

CCC cannot overrule legislation when making a decision, the exception being ignoring of enforcement legislation(such as with Mayo CC)
:mad:

2 stroke

i'll be phoning the dept of environment today to get clarification on this issue , and i'm requesting it in writing
Banzai and everybody else, if you want a writen reply from a gov dept write to them, they have to reply in writing.
Much as we would like, a turbine on a 3 meter pole gives a lousy reception on your tv, and is not exempt from planning no matter how much the people that sell turbines lie. As far as I can see, all that exists in law regarding exemption from planning is a consultation document proposing exemptions.

Clare gunner

It's cheaper in the Phillipines and S America where they've cut down acres of rainforest to produce it - Buring the indigenous forests have produced a very substanial percentasge of the CO2 we've seen over the past 10 years already

.

Produce what exactly?Brazil uses sugar cane to produce alcofuel.the rainforest erosion is due to them needing grazing land for beef cattle and development,as well as simple useage of a natural resource,that is not being replenished.
There goes the mighty rainforest of Roscommon then!:rolleyes:

Do we stop it from being imported - NO WE CAN'T - it's a business, trade cant be hindered.

Agreed,but we can make ourselves less dependant on it,it wont ever be in our lifetimes ,[I think] a viable alt to mass produced,artificially price fixed,crude oil.

Capt'n Midnight

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote:

now as regards the cost of oil , that has fallen by about 17% in the recent months, so the ESB cant justify their increase on that ,

Don't the ESB buy oil YEARS in advance to cushion for rising prices. And the general trend in oil is upwards even if it's falling back from a spike.

Windfarms are usually on tops of mountains rather than arable land, especially here. But they farm in Schipol Airport in Holland, and windmills don't burst in flames. Thankfully they have phased out the usage of depleted uranium as counterweights in new aircraft. It it's a problem you could feather the blades while farming.

Clare gunner

ASFIK,no.They have no storage facilities for years supplies.
DU BTW isnt dangerous until it becomes powerded or dust.
Been over to Schipol a good few times and never seen any crops growing on the airfield.But they do farm up around it,glass houses mostly.

ardara1

Clare gunner wrote:

.

Produce what exactly?Brazil uses sugar cane to produce alcofuel.the rainforest erosion is due to them needing grazing land for beef cattle and development,as well as simple useage of a natural resource,that is not being replenished.
There goes the mighty rainforest of Roscommon then!:rolleyes:


Clare - the most cost effective plant based alternative to fuel is from Palm oil.
It will be the cheapest on the market.
3 years ago the phillipines had a black-out caused by de-forestation land clearance to produce palm oil. Brazil have committed them selves to the majority of their fuel comming form the same source.

It will end up in roscommon because the poor bas----s don;t get paid enought to produce it and Bertie won;t prevent it form being imported - we don't have enough land any to produce our own needs - even if we could prevent imports

And another thing smart a-- - global warming is GLOBAL roascommon will be pretty much ok whilst thePhillipines and Bangladesh drown - open you agenda a bit.

Capt'n Midnight

Clare gunner wrote:

ASFIK,no.They have no storage facilities for years supplies.

options, buying in advance
- ryanair and aer lingus do it too

DU BTW isnt dangerous until it becomes powerded or dust.

or someone flies a 747 into a block of flats after IIRC being told by air traffic control to go another way (ie. over less populate areas) http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/uranium_skies.htm

Been over to Schipol a good few times and never seen any crops growing on the airfield.But they do farm up around it,glass houses mostly.

It was on TV a very long time ago.

Clare gunner

Clare - the most cost effective plant based alternative to fuel is from Palm oil.
It will be the cheapest on the market.
3 years ago the phillipines had a black-out caused by de-forestation land clearance to produce palm oil. Brazil have committed them selves to the majority of their fuel comming form the same source.

It will end up in roscommon because the poor bas----s don;t get paid enought to produce it and Bertie won;t prevent it form being imported - we don't have enough land any to produce our own needs - even if we could prevent imports

And another thing smart a-- - global warming is GLOBAL roascommon will be pretty much ok whilst thePhillipines and Bangladesh drown - open you agenda a bit.[/QUOTE]

Go away and get a sense of humour for yourself first off.You obviously dont recognise it in the great rainforest of Roscommon comment.[BTW it is spelt Roscommon] The rest of your post makes no sense,to me.So you dont want to import palm oil because that will lead to deforestation and the Phillipines and Bangladesh drown ???WTF???

Clare gunner

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

options, buying in advance
- ryanair and aer lingus do it too



or someone flies a 747 into a block of flats after IIRC being told by air traffic control to go another way (ie. over less populate areas) http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/uranium_skies.htm

And how and where exactly do they store these vast reserves????Not in Ireland and the cost to store your fuel in somones elses refinery or storage tanks is prohibitive.Granted airfields have "tank farms" but that only holds appx 2months worth at any given time.In Shannon it is topped off every six weeks by Russian tankers.PLUS remember fuel be it petrol or eespecially Jet fuel has a very short "shelf life" of months rather than years.Any type of contaminent[usually water] in Jet fuel renders it absolutely useless.So who is going to run that type of risk??

Second point crashing 747s in Holland.QED DU in crash,gets mangled,burnt,or powdered.Ergo Dangerous. Not to mind whatever weird cargo El Al was carrying.

Must have been on the TV a good while ago,proably long pre 911 was over there in June,no arable crops in the airfield perimiter.Think I would recognise wheat or corn or stuff like that.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

Trading Months: Crude Oil Futures trade 30 consecutive months plus long-dated futures initially listed 36, 48, 60, 72, and 84 months prior to delivery

Clare gunner

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

Yes,very intresting...And???? I dont see what you are getting at???
Bit of a difference between the price of crude and the finished product.
IE the price you and I pay for petrol,diesel,or Aer Lingus or Ryanair pay for JP1 ,[albeit they buy it in tonnage rather than litres].Still has to be refined,taxed, and stored,taxed,transported,taxed and stored,[and used quickly as well in the case of JP1].And TAXED to the hilt by our govt?
So add those costs and problems and you will find a hello of a difference of price of crude and the finished product at the pump.
Btw intresting to see how much it is dropping in price,coming into the winter months in the USA.Which is actually a peak time for oil useage.
Wouldn't it be the other way round if there is such an oil shortage or other calamities that are supposed to end civilisation???IE the price should be steadily climbing consistently,not peaking in Summer and dropping in Winter?

BANZAI_RUNNER

if i remember right , they buy their fuel 3 to 6 months in advance,but i'm sure it can be found out under the freedom of info act, after all they are a semi state body

Del2005

Clare gunner wrote:

Btw intresting to see how much it is dropping in price,coming into the winter months in the USA.Which is actually a peak time for oil useage.
Wouldn't it be the other way round if there is such an oil shortage or other calamities that are supposed to end civilisation???IE the price should be steadily climbing consistently,not peaking in Summer and dropping in Winter?

Unfortunately thats not the case. Peak oil usage in the US is in the summer for their driving season. Also they have to produce more electricty in summer to run all their air con units. Which was why the West coast had the brown outs in the summer due to high power usage and not on the East coast in winter, leaving aside the Enron dodgy dealing. Also most of the high oil costs where hype over the wars in the middle east and also supply problems in Nigera.

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=237734&area=/wheels_deals/wheels_news/

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/07/news/international/oil/

Clare gunner

Well, isnt THAT an answer from OPEC???The world has enough oil!!![cnn article link]
But ,then explain this;if the peak season is Summer in the US,what happens in Winter when everyone on the East coast powers up their electrical heaters,oilfired furnaces,etc etc.This will happen in everywhere in CONUS from Maine to the western slopes of the Rockies.They do get some evil Winters over there.So the demand should rise accordingly with the Winter and Summer seasons.???