Open Limping on the button !!!

Ste05

2+2's Raptor's latest SnG theory

I thought I'd post this here to see what people thought. I'm in 2 minds about it myself, although I don't play tourney's very much, when I do, I sometimes make a similar kind of play myself every now and again,

By open limping as a way to steal blinds. What I do is against the right BB, and players to act after me, I'll open limp (the very odd time - maybe once in 2 or 3 orbits, just as a change from my usual blind steal raise move) and then bet the minimum on the flop and usually it'll take the blinds for what is effectively a min-raise. (around the same sort of time raptor's talking about in his post, but I don't confine it to the button).

Along with a chance to win the blinds for a minimum amount, I also do this to mix up my game and for the right table it'll sometimes make them think I play my big hands like a monkey and they're slightly more likely to pay off my big hands when I have them and (heaven forbid :eek:) don't open limp with them!!

Anyway, thought I'd just post it up here and see what people's thoughts are on it.

Rnger

I like this move, has to be used sparingly though. The only time I ever use it is in the later stages of sng's when I've gone from TAG to LAG. If you see a player raising from the CO/Button at least once a round, and then open limps, it looks a bit fishy! On one occasion i was shown top-pair-weak-kicker after my minibet on the flop. I imagine most players wont be this savvy

I prefer to appear solid so i can continue stealing in the later stages, but if you get caught a few times youll have people playing back at you, this is when this play works best as standard rather than standard stealing pf

bohsman

I do it a fair bit but would bet 2xbb on the flop

Hectorjelly

no

Ste05

bohsman wrote:

I do it a fair bit but would bet 2xbb on the flop

Ye I do this if the SB calls too, but if it's only the BB, I'll make it 1 BB.

ianmc38

Not a fan of this move at all. Giving the blinds a free flop with 2 bad cards is extremely bad IMO.

Da GOAT

ianmc38 wrote:

Not a fan of this move at all. Giving the blinds a free flop with 2 bad cards is extremely bad IMO.

i dont use it but its fine in an MTT against opp's who are paying attention. nice way to mix it up but use sparingly or they will cop on.

in a sng turbo (which i play mainly) i just steal.

cardshark202

Hectorjelly wrote:

no

.

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

no

could you elaborate?

I know a player (whom I rate very highly) who reckons this is more effective than the standard 3XBB Button steal on occasion (when avg stack is about 25BBs). His theory (same as Ste05) is it only costs you 2.5BBs whereas a button steal can sometimes cost you 7 or 8 BBs when it goes wrong to a check raise. I have had a lengthy debate with him about this subject. Another point he makes is, the SB or BB will only hit the flop hard enough to defend 1 in 3 or 4 times.

Hectorjelly

all you do by limping is give the blinds a free chance to flop something good.

People often come up with highly contrived situations and arguments for limping, but I have never bought any of them. Most of the time the guys in the blinds will have hands that will not be able to stand a raise.

Any time I join a game, be it a tournament or a cash game, I know I can beat if people are regularly limping in late position. Its just a flawed strategy.

ocallagh

cheers, I suppose it depends on your opponents too. I think against very tight players limp stealing could be an effective and cheap way to take a pot, and also mix up your play at the same time, but against a standard opponent raising on the button is probabl more profitable in the long run.

might give it a go in the SE tonight !

fuzzbox

you are not just stealing, you are raising the pot up in position.

Playing bigger pots in position is +EV.

If the blinds call you light, then all the better.

Hectorjelly

ocallagh wrote:

cheers, I suppose it depends on your opponents too. I think against very tight players limp stealing could be an effective and cheap way to take a pot, and also mix up your play at the same time, but against a standard opponent raising on the button is probabl more profitable in the long run.

might give it a go in the SE tonight !

if they are very tight they will fold to your raise anyway

MrPillowTalk

I do something sort of similar in tournaments at certain stages. When the blinds get big and the average stack is about 20bb or under I like to min raise utg or limp, the conditions have to be right the table has to be reasonably tight and the BB and button need to be non maniac players.

I find that often what happens is that at this point in a tourney noone wants to be calling raises so they either reraise heavy or go away, a lot of the time the BB will flat call and another 2.5bb on the flop usually gets rid of them.

It is generally a cheaper way and depending on the table more effective way of stealing blinds, everyone expects the button raise, and are prepared to come over the top.

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

if they are very tight they will fold to your raise anyway

ok, so we can agree they will fold all the times they don't have a hand, but when they do, limp stealing is cheaper so harringotn points for limp stealing... however there is a downside: you give them an opportunity to flop a big hand... but what are the chances of that? I'm guessing 5/1 off the top of my head, ie: TP good kicker+

meh I give up, if I was bothered I'm sure I could prove something mathematically here! Might be an interesting one to work on tomorrow, but it's getting late now.

fuzzbox wrote:

you are not just stealing, you are raising the pot up in position.

Playing bigger pots in position is +EV.

That is only partially true. Lets say we all have 1BB left, position is no longer an advantage. 2BBs doesn't help either, even with 10BBs the only advantage you have is pre-flop. You need at least 20 to 30BBs before you can properly take advantage of your position on the flop/turn, and that's pushing it. So, when in a tournament and you have an average stack of 20BBs I think cheap methods of stealing can work quite well.

I'm not saying it's better than raising in position - I'd say they are both +EV, but it's good to mix up your game.

bohsman

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I do something sort of similar in tournaments at certain stages. When the blinds get big and the average stack is about 20bb or under I like to min raise utg or limp, the conditions have to be right the table has to be reasonably tight and the BB and button need to be non maniac players.

I find that often what happens is that at this point in a tourney noone wants to be calling raises so they either reraise heavy or go away, a lot of the time the BB will flat call and another 2.5bb on the flop usually gets rid of them.

It is generally a cheaper way and depending on the table more effective way of stealing blinds, everyone expects the button raise, and are prepared to come over the top.

People (me at least) have caught onto this, if utg is a serial minraiser when Im on the button I will call 80% of their raises.