A question to the experienced grapplers?

Millionaire

Hi Lads:

I want to ask an question to the lads with strong experience in the grappling arts be it judo, bjj, wreslting etc... its really to help me further my own learning and development in MA.

So it would be great if we can keep this post to the topic, and questions, and throll free!

As some of you know, I am due to being learing grappling (yeah I know, start date keeps getting pushed back, but i ll get to the lessons soon!), and I will be learning from an MMA teacher, who mixes the best of wrestling styles, bjj, and judo.

My main goal is to learn this range for SD reasons.

I am a great believer in the basics and I believe its the basics the work in a real SD situation ( I know I have proven this myself in situations). Geoff Thompson mentioned on his punching series, that he was written 27 books and 26 DVDS on SD, and he can sum it up in one line "Learn to hit fooking hard", his main weapon is punching, and then grappling as a support system. as if it goes to grappling, the guy with skills in this area will win.

Now the question is this, if I wanted to get good BASIC grappling down, is there much to learn or much in it, or how much would do need to learn.

For example in Muay Thai, there is a whole set of One Step Defences, but people rarely learn them (jumping elbow, spinning hook kick, arm locks), as MT is mainly sport focused, and the basics are done for the ring (and rightly so too).

Also I was reading an article in Black Belt mag the other month, about BJJ arm bars, and this was really techincal advanced stuff, as I appeared to me, the seemed more aimed at a grappling contest, the article was aimed at experienced BJJ people, as opposed to street, where all the fancy stuff goes out the window.

Assuming an SD situation went to grappling, and assuming the attacker got no mates who are going to jump in and boot your head like a football when your on the ground.

How much is there to learn, or is there "fancy" stuff that can be left out etc.

Or can grappling be summed up as "hit hard" and simplified into get a good 4 punch boxing skills, and spar and train them hard, and add in a bit of RBSD mindset, and you got a good basic system, as in Geoff Thompsons ideals.

Or another example is say Tae Kwon Do (which I did for a few years) who could learn a front kick to the ball in a TKD class, and train it to perfection, and you would have a nice handy simple dirty trick right there for SD. or down the line you could spend time on all the "fun" stuff , like jumping kicks, spinning kick combos etc, fast triple kicks from one leg, (I did all this too). which can be used in full contact WTF TKD competions (which I competed in) but 99% useless for the street.

If you compare this TKD example to learning grappling.... is there "fancy kicks" in grappling that can be left out?

Also assume in the SD situation, that its highly unlikely you will be getting mugged by a Gracie!

judomick

about a year training 2 to 3 times a week and you would/should beat an average street thug

arybvtcw0eolkf

judomick wrote:

about a year training 2 to 3 times a week and you would/should beat an average street thug

Agreed.

I've also been surprised at how easy the training comes to you in a SD situation 'on the street' too. Although in my experience applying an arm bar on the ground/street isn't a realistic goal, however you'll dominate an attacker for either a good ol' G&P or a rear naked choke.

***My Judo experience is just under four year's, but noticed the above very early on in situations in work/door***

Millionaire

Mairt wrote:

Agreed.
Although in my experience applying an arm bar on the ground/street isn't a realistic goal, however you'll dominate an attacker for either a good ol' G&P or a rear naked choke.

***My Judo experience is just under four year's, but noticed the above very early on in situations in work/door***

This is the sort of thing I was meaning, in my OP. any more expansion on this idea.

see I am going to be taking private 1 -1 training with this guy to up my learning, so I want make sure I am getting the right training.

Millionaire

judomick wrote:

about a year training 2 to 3 times a week and you would/should beat an average street thug

on the grappling only you mean?


I am starting with 1 sessions a week and will work up from there.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Millionaire wrote:

This is the sort of thing I was meaning, in my OP. any more expansion on this idea.

Ok, once while working in a pub in Swords I applied an arm bar, the guy (obviously) didn't tap out, realising this I released it to prevent a very bad injury and an assault charge!.

REalistically I think an armbar on the street is very dangerous for both people fighting. For your opponent because he's at risk of a very serious injury, and you because if you didn't get it on very snappy (pun intended) your opponent is likely going to bite lumps out of your leg.

IMO attacking an elbow on the street is easier, and safer whilst standing. But thats just talking from my own personal experience.

john kavanagh

its kind of a 'how longs a piece of string?' question but VERY generally imo you have to be rolling with a varied group of people 2-3 times per week under the watchful eye of a good, experienced coach for about 6 months to see improvement.

like i say to all beginners i'd recommend you concentrate on technical escapes from bottom (ones based on hip movement, not on upper body strength) - they are the foundation of any good ground grappling game

enjoy the experience

gymrabbit

I think your appraoch is a bit flawed Gerry. I think you'd benefit from particaption rather than trying to take short cuts via dvds etc. Grappling is far far more complex then striking. You may be able to say, I'll just take the big 4/5 submissions and drill them over and over again - Triangle choke from your back, rear naked choke from rear mount, kimura from side control, arm bar from mount. but you'll never become a competent grappler without rolling freestyle as much as possible.

People say grapplers struggle to take the striking game up but I think it's much more difficult for a striker to learn how to grapple effectively.

Millionaire

Thanks for the the info!

Yes, I think it will be a big challenge for me to learn!

As I suspected, it is not going to be as simple as teaching someone basic boxing skills.

Learning NOT to use brute force, will be the biggest challenge for me.

gymrabbit

Mairt wrote:

Ok, once while working in a pub in Swords I applied an arm bar, the guy (obviously) didn't tap out, realising this I released it to prevent a very bad injury and an assault charge!.

REalistically I think an armbar on the street is very dangerous for both people fighting. For your opponent because he's at risk of a very serious injury, and you because if you didn't get it on very snappy (pun intended) your opponent is likely going to bite lumps out of your leg.

IMO attacking an elbow on the street is easier, and safer whilst standing. But thats just talking from my own personal experience.

was this in wrights? I always wonder what I'd do if I got an arm bar on in a street fight. Wait for the guy to stop wriggling due ot the pain and then let go and run or what? I wouldn't break it for sure. Maybe I shouldn't armbar ppl on the street.

gymrabbit

Millionaire wrote:

Thanks for the the info!

Yes, I think it will be a big challenge for me to learn!

As I suspected, it is not going to be as simple as teaching someone basic boxing skills.

Learning NOT to use brute force, will be the biggest challenge for me.

fair play gerry. i think you'll actually progress a lot quicker understanding this. next time you're over in ireland we should organise a special grappling session for you.

buck65

was in Italy last week when a fight broke out on a train. Some drunk fella got onto the next carriage and accused a guy of taking his jacket and boxed him in the jaw they proceeded to stand up holding each other by the shirt collar for about another minute whilst arguing the point. The drunk guy had cuts on both eyes - obviously from an earlier scrap but was a good 6 inches taller - everyone on the carriage either moved carriages or moved seats. Myself and my wife were looking throught the window at this and I was mentally getting ready for a fight - however the cops eventually came and arrested the drunk guy, I didn't get involved because A- The victim had 2 friends who were with him and B- the language ! I wasn't sure what was happening but I decided if things got worse I would intervene.
That got me to thinking what would be the best way of fighting I study Taekwondo and had 2 BJJ lessons (before spraining a thumb and had to pull out!!) I reckoned a punch or snap kick to the groin would be in order in close quarter combat, thus realising TKD isn't so bad!!
Of course it didn't happen so who knows!! Anyway Gerry I just thought I would throw it in.

Millionaire

buck65 wrote:

was in Italy last week when a fight broke out on a train. Some drunk fella got onto the next carriage and accused a guy of taking his jacket and boxed him in the jaw they proceeded to stand up holding each other by the shirt collar for about another minute whilst arguing the point. The drunk guy had cuts on both eyes - obviously from an earlier scrap but was a good 6 inches taller - everyone on the carriage either moved carriages or moved seats. Myself and my wife were looking throught the window at this and I was mentally getting ready for a fight - however the cops eventually came and arrested the drunk guy, I didn't get involved because A- The victim had 2 friends who were with him and B- the language ! I wasn't sure what was happening but I decided if things got worse I would intervene.
That got me to thinking what would be the best way of fighting I study Taekwondo and had 2 BJJ lessons (before spraining a thumb and had to pull out!!) I reckoned a punch or snap kick to the groin would be in order in close quarter combat, thus realising TKD isn't so bad!!
Of course it didn't happen so who knows!! Anyway Gerry I just thought I would throw it in.

I think a good hard shot in the mouth be in a punch or an open handed strike, works wonders very fast!

LukeyJudo22

Millionaire wrote:

Or can grappling be summed up as "hit hard" and simplified into get a good 4 punch boxing skills, and spar and train them hard, and add in a bit of RBSD mindset, and you got a good basic system, as in Geoff Thompsons ideals.

I don't think you can sum grappling up pretty much like that but i think see what your getiing at. I think the most important thing for tachi-waza (standing free practice) in judo is total commitment to the throw.

Whatever the throw is as long as you commit 100% to it you'll get a result, wheter it's throwing your opponent flat on his back or stumbling your opponent to set him up for something else.

so hit hard now becomes throw hard.

As for ne-waza drill the techniques that require technique over and over again and roll roll roll! Good luck!

-Luke

Dermot Nolan

buck65 wrote:

I was mentally getting ready for a fight...... I decided if things got worse I would intervene.

Why were you thinking of getting involved in this fight? It seems crazy to me that you would consider putting yourself in danger like that.

Millionaire

LukeyJudo22 wrote:

I don't think you can sum grappling up pretty much like that but i think see what your getiing at. I think the most important thing for tachi-waza (standing free practice) in judo is total commitment to the throw.

Whatever the throw is as long as you commit 100% to it you'll get a result, wheter it's throwing your opponent flat on his back or stumbling your opponent to set him up for something else.

so hit hard now becomes throw hard.

As for ne-waza drill the techniques that require technique over and over again and roll roll roll! Good luck!

-Luke

Thats a great answer, thanks.

Ne-waza is the ground fighting end of judo?

someone told me, some judo schools give ne-waza alot less attention than the throwing...is this true?

pma-ire

buck65 wrote:

That got me to thinking what would be the best way of fighting I study Taekwondo and had 2 BJJ lessons (before spraining a thumb and had to pull out!!) I reckoned a punch or snap kick to the groin would be in order in close quarter combat, thus realising TKD isn't so bad!!

Well placed kicks to the thighs will do enough to drop someone! Being a TKD person throwing in turning kicks should not be a problem for you.

Then land something with the hands! Thats if you want to fight at all

Dermot Nolan

Great post Luke. I 100% agree with your point on committment to throws in tachi waza or standing. This is something that i have been told constantly during training but it only clicked with me for the first time last night and all of a sudden my throws started to work.

I would presume that this principle would carry through to no gi/ sub wrestling when in the clinch range i.e once a dominant position in the clinch is gained total commitment to your throw will result in a favourable outcome be it a clean throw or breaking of balance to allow a follow up throw. Do any of the guys who compete in no-gi contest agree/disagree?

LukeyJudo22

Millionaire wrote:

Thats a great answer, thanks.

Ne-waza is the ground fighting end of judo?

someone told me, some judo schools give ne-waza alot less attention than the throwing...is this true?

Yeah ne-waza is groundfighting sorry.

It really depends on the club. Most judo clubs are 80% standing and 20% groundwork. Some clubs are even 90% standing 10% groundwork. It all depends on the coach. My club is 50/50. Some nights even 100% groundfighting. (Or recently 100% standing, it depends on what we need to work on).

Some international judo players have amazing throwing techniques/ability and really if you could throw like they do then it's understandable if you don't concentrate on the ne-waza end too much. But unless you have an amazing throwing ability coupled with a strong and adaptable defence on the ground it's crazy imo to put less emphasis on the ground.

Judo players that have a big hole in their ne-waza stand out to me like a sore thumb (in a big white judo suit )

My coach in the states he won a silver medal in the olympics in barcelona, had amazing stand up throws aswell as a wrestling background , but he told me he didn't even learn ground fighting until very close to the end of his career. He said if he did he felt he would have done much better than he did (which is already an illustrious career.) Now he makes sure his club practices ne-waza almost as much as standing.


Neil Adams is a great example of a great judo player with fantastic tachi-waza and ne-waza, it's rare you get both.

-Luke

buck65

Dermot Nolan wrote:

Why were you thinking of getting involved in this fight? It seems crazy to me that you would consider putting yourself in danger like that.

Dermot , good point
I felt that maybe the fight could spill into our carriage ( 2 metres away) and if there was any threat to myself or my wife (this guy was crazy and seemed intent on fighting with whoever was nearest him) I would hit first and ask questions later also the guy he was picking on was young and smaller than him and you could see his 2 friends werent too strong either - i feel if someone is being innocently attacked I would hope I would have the balls to step in if I felt I could help. Of course this is just me and I understand alot of martial arts is use only when completely necessary and thankfully on this occasion things sorted themselves out.
Anyway I awas dying to try out a few moves LOL

Dermot Nolan

buck65 wrote:

Dermot , good point
I felt that maybe the fight could spill into our carriage ( 2 metres away) and if there was any threat to myself or my wife (this guy was crazy and seemed intent on fighting with whoever was nearest him) I would hit first and ask questions later also the guy he was picking on was young and smaller than him and you could see his 2 friends werent too strong either - i feel if someone is being innocently attacked I would hope I would have the balls to step in if I felt I could help. Of course this is just me and I understand alot of martial arts is use only when completely necessary and thankfully on this occasion things sorted themselves out.
Anyway I awas dying to try out a few moves LOL

If you were worried about this fight dangering yourself or your wife i understand why you considered being involved. I wouldn't worry about the smaller guy(i mean this as a general term) personally, unfortunately its his problem and i wouldn't risk being hurt or worse.

I'd save trying out moves for the mats and possibly sometime you cant avoid a fight

Dermot Nolan

Millionaire, sorry for bringing this thread off topic.

When are you planning on starting your grappling/mma training? It would be interesting if you reported here about your initial queries again after some hands on experience.

Millionaire

No problem...thread take interesting twists!

I am supposed to be starting, 2 months ago!!!!! but was striken down with a virus from the floodwater in thailand, sick for 1 month, and now only getting strenght back after doses of anti biotics that would have killed a herd of buffalo! I never realised how bad anti bios can leave you feeling

So I hope to get a few sessions in before xmas, and then start at it proper in Jan. see I am Thai boxing 5 days a week, and working too, so I got to be very efficent with time to get these lessons in.

arybvtcw0eolkf

gymrabbit wrote:

was this in wrights? I always wonder what I'd do if I got an arm bar on in a street fight. Wait for the guy to stop wriggling due ot the pain and then let go and run or what? I wouldn't break it for sure. Maybe I shouldn't armbar ppl on the street.

Nope it was 'The Slaughtered Lamb'.

I'll tell you how far it went. You know when your rolling with a partner and he refuses to tap, and you know its on solid so you release it?. Well thats how that one went. It was on solid, I'd have caused great injury & since I was hardly fighting for my life I let it off and let loose with a few clatters!.

IMO an armbar isn't for the street unless its 'hell for leather' because your opponent isn't going to realise whats happening, and at the end of the day your going to justify your actions to both the guard's and a Judge (worse case).

Millionaire

tell the judge your martial art is Tai Chi...LOL!!!

FiannaGym.com

My adivce (and Im not an expereinced grappler) would be this:

Forget about trying to win, who cares, loose on the mat win where it counts. If you get beaten everyday on the mat but are winning in the ring or on the street who cares?

Focus on relaxing all the time. Just imagine trying to do thai while contracting every muscle in your body? Being that tense is a joke, and this applies to grappling.

Your never going to be strong enough to crush the dude (if you are, pick on someone your own size) so don't try. When your in clinch, as I'm sure you know from thai, just relax and respond to motions, rely on technique...

If you do a technique right you'll need no strength, if you do it wrong you'll never be strong enough and your wasting time.

And remember its the flow with the go!

Mostly, just enjoy it relax and have fun, its an ongoing project learning, relaxing, tightening up your game (which means things like keeping your elbows in, not holding the dude tighter - which incidently would be quite loose ha) getting sharper.

My last point is, I think grappling and striking are equally technical, people who think there's a difference are not applying themselves equally IMHO.

Peace

Millionaire

aye, thats the big down fall, tightening up, and trying to use force, and strenght. the bit of ground I did in the Krav, I had terrible problems relaxing, though in the thai clinch I am able to relax, so I guess if I can do that, i can adapt!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Millionaire wrote:

aye, thats the big down fall, tightening up, and trying to use force, and strenght. the bit of ground I did in the Krav, I had terrible problems relaxing, though in the thai clinch I am able to relax, so I guess if I can do that, i can adapt!

Like you I came to grappling from years kickboxing and had the same faults, ie tighting up and trying to use brute force and ignorance to win. Doesn't work, and with only four year's Judo I'm not really in a position to say what works yet.

In my case its been practice, practice, practice..

Thing is that my ground game is far better than my throw's/takedowns but in competition I'm inclined to try stand up again when the fight goes to the mat!. Only thing I can think of is that I'm still fighting on instinct.