Blind Battle

DapperGent

I just get moved tables near enough to the bubble in a tournament. I haven't played a hand by the time I'm the big blind, I haven't noticed the small blind playing a hand either.

I have 8k (a little above average) SB has 4k. Blinds 200-400. Folded all the way to the SB who pushes. What hands do you call with?

DocO

aq ak aa kk qq and anything after that is doown to your judgement at the moment, blinds rnt too big so i wouldnt worry bout them that much.

he more than likely has a decent ace or mid/small pkt pairs im my opinion

Rnger

you lose very little by folding so i want to be a big favourite before im calling. JJ+

breadmonkey

JJ+ is a bit tight, no? He's probably pushing any two.

Hectorjelly

Any pair above 33, any ace, KQ. The guy only has 10 blinds

shaydy

Hectorjelly wrote:

Any pair above 33, any ace, KQ. The guy only has 10 blinds

yeah id agree with this, if he has pushed a few times before id strectch that to Kx aswell and take a race

Lafortezza

Hectorjelly wrote:

Any pair above 33,

Is calling with 33 up to 77 not getting your chips in when you're 50-50 at best? You still have 20BBs.

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

Is calling with 33 up to 77 not getting your chips in when you're 50-50 at best? You still have 20BBs.

You have a 6% edge over a random hand with 44. In fact its slightly better than this because he wont push AA, KK or QQ - and there is 2 blinds of dead money

Rnger

Yes JJ+ is way to tight come to think but against a complete unknown im still not gambling have my stack with 33-77.

I do push sometimes here with QQ+ as its unexpected. I was just trying to calculate its EV to see if its more profitable than a standard raise against HJ's range..

So 21% ill be called and win 75% of the time.

15.75% ill have 8k
79% ill have 4.4k
and 5.25% ill have 0

whats do i do next

Is this right:
(0.1575*8) + (0.79*4.4) + (0.0525*0) = 4.7k is your average stack after?

Looks like a poor play to push so

Da GOAT

DapperGent wrote:

I just get moved tables near enough to the bubble in a tournament. I haven't played a hand by the time I'm the big blind, I haven't noticed the small blind playing a hand either.

I have 8k (a little above average) SB has 4k. Blinds 200-400. Folded all the way to the SB who pushes. What hands do you call with?

Hmm im new to this site as im looking to get in contact with Irish players, im under the same user name on www.flopturnriver.com if anyone wants to check my level.

Trouble is im wondering about the quality of advice here. Ive read replies below and not one has asked for the range you put SB on.

Really this is just a straight forward calculation for ICM or SNGPT.

if i was SB, i push 23o basically coz its +EV if BB is tight.

Hectorjelly

Da GOAT wrote:

Trouble is im wondering about the quality of advice here. Ive read replies below and not one has asked for the range you put SB on.

he has not seen the sb play a hand, so our range is as good as his. Also its an MTT not an stt, so the tools you mentioned dont really work

Da GOAT

Hectorjelly wrote:

he has not seen the sb play a hand, so our range is as good as his. Also its an MTT not an stt, so the tools you mentioned dont really work

sound. well then its simple enough you cant call without the goods. AKo,QQ+.

Hectorjelly

Da GOAT wrote:

sound. well then its simple enough you cant call without the goods. AKo,QQ+.

No

Even if the sb was tight this is a stupidly tight range. But we are only recently at the table so we dont really no if he is in fact tight. Folding JJ to an open push here would be pretty funny though.

DapperGent

My own personal range for calling in this spot against an absolute unknown is pairs 55+ and aces down to AT. This is a great spot to play a big pot if you can find the correct way to play it and this spot is pretty common as you get to the business end of a tournament. Playing hands like this correctly is essential. I wonder if my range is a little wide.

As it happens I called with ATo and got my stack halved by AJ.

Ste05

I would call here with 66+, A6+ and K10+

RoundTower

Against a random internet unknown I'd call with something like Steve's line, a lot of people aren't pushing any 2 here.

cardshark202

Ste05 wrote:

I would call here with 66+, A6+ and K10+

Yeah this range seems good

Da GOAT

calling with 66+,A6+, KT+. is not a good strategy to call with.

opp is new to the table so considering that he has no reads and cannot play according to them(ie none) so when he plays a hand knowing nothing about the table, he is more likely to play a stronger hand in theory than chance his arm.

personnally im not willing to call off half my stack on a 50/50 (and our range above shows we could mostly put chips in as 70/30,60/40 dogs) when i can get an much better edge later on. Calling range above indicates way too many hands that we would be behind with if we call. yes my range is tight( very tight) but we know nothing and calling with small PP, weak Aces, and K high is bad strategy.

DapperGent

Da GOAT wrote:

opp is new to the table so considering that he has no reads and cannot play according to them(ie none) so when he plays a hand knowing nothing about the table, he is more likely to play a stronger hand in theory than chance his arm.

I'm new to the table the other guy isn't.

personnally im not willing to call off half my stack on a 50/50 (and our range above shows we could mostly put chips in as 70/30,60/40 dogs) when i can get an much better edge later on. Calling range above indicates way too many hands that we would be behind with if we call. yes my range is tight( very tight) but we know nothing and calling with small PP, weak Aces, and K high is bad strategy.

Folding AQ, JJ, TT here against an unknown with 10BBs is an enourmous mistake.

Da GOAT

DapperGent wrote:

I'm new to the table the other guy isn't.

Folding AQ, JJ, TT here against an unknown with 10BBs is an enourmous mistake.

either way, you dont know each other all that much.

i understand what your saying!!

Hero at fault for not telling the table as he joined that he '' is a b*****d when defending his blinds''

Da GOAT

DapperGent wrote:

I'm new to the table the other guy isn't.

Folding AQ, JJ, TT here against an unknown with 10BBs is an enourmous mistake.

sorry didnt comment on your range, yeah this can work but 66+,A6+,KT does not.

Ste05

Da GOAT wrote:

calling with 66+,A6+, KT+. is not a good strategy to call with.

opp is new to the table so considering that he has no reads and cannot play according to them(ie none) so when he plays a hand knowing nothing about the table, he is more likely to play a stronger hand in theory than chance his arm.

personnally im not willing to call off half my stack on a 50/50 (and our range above shows we could mostly put chips in as 70/30,60/40 dogs) when i can get an much better edge later on. Calling range above indicates way too many hands that we would be behind with if we call. yes my range is tight( very tight) but we know nothing and calling with small PP, weak Aces, and K high is bad strategy.

This is wrong. Do you realise we only have 20BB's and the Villain only has 10, if you sit there waiting for AA or KK, or to get a "read" then by the time you get them you'll have nothing worth doubling up.

Exactly what sort of reads to you expect to pick up when you're only 20BB's deep, all you'll get to know is how loose and aggressive people are PF, and have a somewhat ability to define a range, but it won't be much more concrete than what we know now and in the end if you intend on ever calling an All-In with less than AA, KK, QQ or AK, then you'll still be gambling.

By this stage of a tournament you need to look for small edges, the range I outlined above is about as good as you're going to get. It will usually mean that you're one side of a 60:40 or a 50:50 at worst, (as I doubt AA, KK, QQ or AK will push that often, especially against a new player at the table, who won't know he's playing very LAG) and of the times it'll be a 70:30 we should be a favourite in those flips more often than we're a dog. Due to alot of ragged A's and K's pushing here of which our range dominates (e.g. A5- and K9- are all possible holdings here) and better A's (AK, AQ, AJ, KQ) probably less likely to push as they'd usually want some sort of value from their hand.

When dealing with an unknown player, just assume he's an average internet donkament player and assign him the usual range for pushing in this spot. You don't need a specific range.

Da GOAT

Ste05 wrote:

This is wrong. Do you realise we only have 20BB's and the Villain only has 10, if you sit there waiting for AA or KK, or to get a "read" then by the time you get them you'll have nothing worth doubling up.

Exactly what sort of reads to you expect to pick up when you're only 20BB's deep, all you'll get to know is how loose and aggressive people are PF, and have a somewhat ability to define a range, but it won't be much more concrete than what we know now and in the end if you intend on ever calling an All-In with less than AA, KK, QQ or AK, then you'll still be gambling.

By this stage of a tournament you need to look for small edges, the range I outlined above is about as good as you're going to get. It will usually mean that you're one side of a 60:40 or a 50:50 at worst, (as I doubt AA, KK, QQ or AK will push that often, especially against a new player at the table, who won't know he's playing very LAG) and of the times it'll be a 70:30 we should be a favourite in those flips more often than we're a dog. Due to alot of ragged A's and K's pushing here of which our range dominates (e.g. A5- and K9- are all possible holdings here) and better A's (AK, AQ, AJ, KQ) probably less likely to push as they'd usually want some sort of value from their hand.

When dealing with an unknown player, just assume he's an average internet donkament player and assign him the usual range for pushing in this spot. You don't need a specific range.

when i say reads i do mean PF mostly looking for hand ranges and action PF.

if ive seen the opp push marginal hands or worst i adjust my range accordingly. but here we dont have any info, you make a valid point as in they may just raise pf with stronger hands. quite true.

in assigning a usual range i never include K high which is ahead of very little. or 66+. i dont thinking we are losing much value by not calling with these hands since we have 20xBB, bubble time or near enough, and its always better to be pushing than calling marginals. TT+,AQ+ work for calling. all esle NO.

Ste05

Da GOAT wrote:

in assigning a usual range i never include K high which is ahead of very little. or 66+. i dont thinking we are losing much value by not calling with these hands since we have 20xBB, bubble time or near enough, and its always better to be pushing than calling marginals. TT+,AQ+ work for calling. all esle NO.

There's a reason why it's 66+ and K10+, this is because the pushing range includes alot of hands that have just one over card to the 66, hence we're a 70:30 favourite and alot of K's less than a 10 where again we are a 70:30 favourite.

It is gambling, but long term it's a +EV call.

Waylander

This is essentially a heads up hand Goat and if you only make the call with QQ+ and AKo I will sit on your right at a table any time. The opponent only has 10 BB's left and has to start making moves. I am not sure I would go quite as loose as Ste's range but it would be much closer for me than your calling range.

Da GOAT

Ste05 wrote:

It is gambling, but long term it's a +EV call.

its not +EV if you get the opp range wrong. how many hands you figure have just one overcard to your 66.

granted it is correct for opp to push any two cards here but we dont know if opp is aware of this. if you think he is then your range is fine but most opp's (unknown) dont push ATC near the bubble even if its +EV to do so.

lol i dont think we are going to resolve this.

Ste05

Da GOAT wrote:

lol i dont think we are going to resolve this.

LOL, probably not...

Da GOAT wrote:

its not +EV if you get the opp range wrong. how many hands you figure have just one overcard to your 66.

granted it is correct for opp to push any two cards here but we dont know if opp is aware of this. if you think he is then your range is fine but most opp's (unknown) dont push ATC near the bubble even if its +EV to do so.

If we get our opp's exact hand wrong *this* time, it doesn't mean it's -EV, it just means he was at the upper end of the range this time.

I'd have the Opp's pushing range as Ax, most K's, most PP's, any broadway, and possibly some suited connectors in there too, and there's always a chance he's doing it with any 2. In that range there's quite alot of hands with just one over card.

But TBH the 66+ is there mainly for the 54:46 shots, and the K10+ is there mostly for the A9-, 99-, Kx, and QJ, etc. hands. Obviously this is all very hard to quantify correctly, and to discuss in depth, but you can make certain assumptions of an unknown player based on the tournament you're playing in. And obviously my opinion of my opponents is just slightly different to yours.

Da GOAT

Good talk tho guys lol

lol if he turns over AK it doesnt mean our range for him is wrong. AK is in the range we had him on anyway.;)

Ste05

Da GOAT wrote:

lol if he turns over AK it doesnt mean our range for him is wrong. AK is in the range we had him on anyway.;)

You know it....