Position

Imposter

I'm getting screwed playing hands oop.

Where I notice this problem is playing online 5/10 Limit, offline 4/8 limit (it plays like .50/1 online), 6/12 limit, occasionally 10/20 limit and in NL/PL tournaments.

A typical example from an online limit hand (6 seater) is:

A raise with AJ from early pos. A caller in late position and maybe a blind as well. Flop comes low cards.

Now if I bet out at this flop I seldom win the pot there. Assuming i'm just called taking a stab at a blank turn is expensive if i'm called. How do I react to a raise either on the flop or on the turn?

Ok, nobody can answer that question without knowing something about my opponents. The problem is it seems that a lot of different types of players are catching me here. People with 60-80% VPIP (obviously), people with 25% VPIP. This hand has to be raised preflop on a 6 handed table. Check/folding the flop is way too weak i think. So how the hell should these be played.

The people with the higher VPIP's are playing position a hell of a lot here and i have to be folding the best hand here too often. But playing passively by calling to the end is not a good idea either.

A similar problem is when I get reraised preflop and hit the low card but there's a higher card on the board. These reraises are often hands like 77, AT, KQ and the like! But could just as easily be bigger cards. Passively calling to the end here is also sh!t but it seems the best option due to the amount of bluffing/floating that happens.

The same situation plays out way too often for my liking in NL/PL tournaments where I am hesitant to put in a contuation bet as it commits me but if I check I know I have to give up the pot. This is usually when i've less than 15BB's. I've raised preflop (usually to 3BB). The tournaments generally have very shallow stacks so pushing preflop with 15BB I don't think is an option (anything under 7 or 8 is definitely a push but any more i'm not so sure)

I have similar problems with pocket pairs where they don't hit and i'm against someone who floats a hell of a lot.

Is there better ways to play these hands? Any advice or opinions would be good or any links/references to a good guide to position and/or playing such hands oop.

NickyOD

With the AJ OOP hand you should bet the flop but check fold the turn if you get more than one caller, unless you have some kind of draw going on also. This is a very marginal +EV situation and can be high variance on a loose table, but you are right, You can't check fold the flop in limit against 2 oponents.

OOP with second pair after a preflop reraise is a tough spot in Limit. This is where PAHud comes in really handy to monitor your oponents post flop aggression and habits. You also need a very good idea of his preflop re-raising range. I would often check raise with second pair to try and gain pot control. If he calls I'd lead the turn, and check-call the tiver if no improvement, but if I get 3 bet I'd probably fold if I had no backdoor draw. Heads up in limit its often -EV to fold second pair HU unless you're facing heavy action from a player who is not crazy.

What's your VPIP for 6 handed limit? Maybe you could post a PT screen shot of your stats.

dvdfan

I posted a similar thread a few weeks back, i mostly play STT's but the advice is the same. My results and early exits have improved drastically since i took the advice that was giving in the thread and Nicky posted above.

Just check/fold if you miss the flop and maybe dont raise so much preflop with AJ or A10 in late position (as long as your mixing up your raises and they cant put you on this hand by the raise amount). Of course if you have a good read you might want to see another card but if you have an opponent that likes to donk against you id prefer to fold everytime and hit him hard when you do hit the flop.

Middle pair same advice, check/fold everytime but if everyone checks and the next card isnt an overcard then bet and see where you are and fold to the raise in case someone was slowplaying trips, 2 pair or top pair top kicker or something. Again if your following stats it may be profitable to lead into someone with middle pair if they fold on the flop alot.

Took me a while to have the discipline to do this but its worth it.

dvdfan

Slightly off topic, when im shortstacked and heads up i tend to go all in if i hit the flop regardless of what card i hit unless its a really dangerous flop. Do you think this is a good strategy.

My pro's are:
i might take down the blinds here and then
He might have 2 overcards and call and i double up
he might have a lower pair

My cons are obvious enough but is this move +EV in the long run or should i only do it with top pair or only with top or middle pair???

Imposter

dvdfan wrote:

Slightly off topic, when im shortstacked and heads up i tend to go all in if i hit the flop regardless of what card i hit unless its a really dangerous flop. Do you think this is a good strategy.

You kinda have to if you think your opponent will bet without having hit something.

PT stats:
There's a few parts to this. I've been losing a sh!tload this month so here's the total, before this month and this month.

I think it's a bad run and my stats seem to show this. I'm hitting very few flops i think and that's why the oop thing is annoying me.

...    total   before  nov 
Hands	17,515	15,135	2,380.00
VPIP	31.84	32.36	28.49
W$wsf	39.56	39.99	36.39
bb/100	-0.38	1.02	-9.31
wentSD	35.80	35.87	35.26
wonSD	53.60	54.64	45.60
pfr	14.90	15.00	14.20
FlopAF	1.32	1.30	1.49
TurnAF	1.93	1.93	1.93
RiverAF	1.60	1.66	1.23
TotalAF	1.53	1.53	1.55

dvdfan

I cant see the PT stats??

Imposter

dvdfan wrote:

I cant see the PT stats??

that's because i hit post by mistake the first time. Try now.

Lafortezza

If this is mostly limit stats then the old adage of 'too small a sample size' applies. Limit HE has more variance than NL, so swings (up and down) will be larger. 150-200BB downswings happen often enough even when you're playing your normal profitable game.

Imposter

lafortezza wrote:

If this is mostly limit stats then the old adage of 'too small a sample size' applies. Limit HE has more variance than NL, so swings (up and down) will be larger. 150-200BB downswings happen often enough even when you're playing your normal profitable game.

In terms of results yes the sample size is too small but in terms of the problem with raising oop it may be useful.

Hectorjelly

Some guy had a 1200bb downswing on 2+2 ( he was a winner for 140k hands prev to this)

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

Some guy had a 1200bb downswing on 2+2 ( he was a winner for 140k hands prev to this)

That's incredible. I once won 210BBs in one day at 5/10 limit and in the same week had a downswing of 350bbs. It's a sick game.

NickyOD

Imposter wrote:

You kinda have to if you think your opponent will bet without having hit something.

PT stats:
There's a few parts to this. I've been losing a sh!tload this month so here's the total, before this month and this month.

I think it's a bad run and my stats seem to show this. I'm hitting very few flops i think and that's why the oop thing is annoying me.

...    total   before  nov 
Hands	17,515	15,135	2,380.00
VPIP	31.84	32.36	28.49
W$wsf	39.56	39.99	36.39
bb/100	-0.38	1.02	-9.31
wentSD	35.80	35.87	35.26
wonSD	53.60	54.64	45.60
pfr	14.90	15.00	14.20
FlopAF	1.32	1.30	1.49
TurnAF	1.93	1.93	1.93
RiverAF	1.60	1.66	1.23
TotalAF	1.53	1.53	1.55

Your VPIP for 6 max limit looks good. 29% or below is definitely too tight. When I started at 5/10 I only broke even over the first 20K hands. It takes time. The reason I don't so much any more is I find it takes way too much focus to multitable and is much more stressful than NL. My 2 biggest problems in NL were I was losing toom much from the SB and paying off a little too often when getting outdrawn. I think watching how the high stakes players on Stars play limit is really worthwhile if that's your goal.

Imposter

NickyOD wrote:

Your VPIP for 6 max limit looks good. 29% or below is definitely too tight. When I started at 5/10 I only broke even over the first 20K hands. It takes time. The reason I don't so much any more is I find it takes way too much focus to multitable and is much more stressful than NL. My 2 biggest problems in NL were I was losing toom much from the SB and paying off a little too often when getting outdrawn. I think watching how the high stakes players on Stars play limit is really worthwhile if that's your goal.

Thankfully I was playing well within my bankroll but after losing 250BB's this month i'm a little hesitant to lose the other half of my br.

The reason i'm playing limit is to get better at it for the games here in the local casino. The 10/20 and 15/30 are seriously juicy here and i've tried the 10/20 for a bit and couldn't win at it. Some of the play i've seen on that table is unreal and there's a few players that make a nice profit from it. The problem is it's 10 handed and a full ring game online would bore the life out of me so i'm trying to learn something from the 6-handed games and hopefully i can apply it.

From chatting to a friend who is on a german forum the consensus there seems to be that vpip between 22-29 and pfr between 17-21 is optimal for limit (for 5/10 to 20/40)! I'd only get to that if I folded a lot more to raises preflop and raised a lot more in position (with hands that I think are crap and can get you (me) into too much trouble). He also said that with stats of 30/15 it'd be difficult to do any better than 1BB/100 (at best) but that 30/20 has been shown to be a good bit better.

There's a lot of players in the 22-29 range too from what i've seen. But also quite a few in the 40%+ 'range'

I'm still looking on any feedback for playing hands that you have to raise oop if anyone has any opinions!

cardshark202

Regarding the original question, I three bet the flop an awful lot. Its probably spewy though.