Emporium Cash game hand...Action?

jbravado

Live Cash game hand from last night-may or may not have been a couple of bordsers present.

The game has been pretty soft but is getting tougher as a few solid"er" playes start to make their way to the main table.I have been playing pretty tight for the last hour only showing kk(twice) and jj.I won a biggish pot with aq and my stack is around 700 mark.

Dealt ako in first position and decide to limp.Amazingly not everyone is limping in this game so far and there is usually a raise.Im thinking of popping it if the right player raises.Decent loosish player (around300) whos been very active makes it twelve.Two callers.One with about 350 who is ok but seems to be tilting and another who is shortstacked.I decide to call.Good,bad indifferent?

The flop comes j 10 q with two diamonds.Shorty pushes all in for around 25.

Whats my move and why?

Not sure about the line I took-any comments appreciated.

30something

I'm AI here to be sure of getting rid of flush draws. If shorty has the flush so be it. Shorty is prolly drawing though

handsfree

if your worried about the flush raise as not to give the odds for the flush draw- i.e pot it.

check your pm's

Ste05

Raise it up,
(1) it makes it look like you are trying to isolate the short stack,
(2) it makes it expensive to out draw you
(3) it makes getting the rest of any other players stack pretty simple, (it'll either go in here or on the turn and we have the current nuts)
(4) it's a pretty good flop for a raiser so you should get action.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

El Stuntman

pot it, this is not the position to get tricky

I don't mind your PF play given your position (but then I hate AK OOP with a passion)

ianmc38

Few things Sam

1. I think preflop is fine. You raise that hand alot so mixing it up here is good. It'd be hard to put you on AK.

2. Do you've any diamonds?

3. If there's likely to be a raise after you, I prefer to flat call and reraise.
Sometimes I'll just call and lead any turn. Depends how worried you are about someone having a diamond draw. If you are worried about the flush, I like a raise to 100 or so.

Gholimoli

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I would call the 25 here Sam. you can pretty much gaurantee that the other two will at least call. If that is the case you can get busy on a non - diamond turn and 140ish pot.

Hopefully one of the lads behind will raise. If it is the tilty guy then you should re - pot it. He could well get the lot in then, which would be ideal. Say the decent player makes it 75 or so behind you, then re - raise to 200. It might be the best way of getting his stack over the line.

If you did flat call with no raise behind; and a diamond comes on the turn you might have to do a little more thinking. Also, I would repop it pre - flop everytime with this hand OOP in the emporium.

this is not good at all.

also some one suggested to go all in or something to get rid of flushdraws which is also not good.

apart from having to protect your hand against flushdraw (and you do it with a raise) there are alot of cards that can kill your action on the turn.

any diamond,any K,any A, would pretty much kill your action or give you a split pot .
Ste5 is pretty much bang on .
raising here will look like an isolation play and no one will put you on AK and you may even get reraised.
if you call in the hope of reraising a raiser i feel the hand could end prematurely for you.

Samba

Don't be greedy, agree with gholi, pot the beejaysus out of it.

Flat calling in these spots will only come back and bite you in the ass, what do you do on a d turn if you flat call?

pot pot pot pot pot pot pot.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Samba

so just let them hit cheap?

nah, make them pay for their draw.....i want a flush draw calling a pot raise.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bottom feeder

im trying to put myself in this hand, after flopping the nuts and shortstack all in , i would re-pot it - i'd say you'll get at least one caller - if tues night is anything is to go by....lol,
let them pay top wack for there draw and if it doesn't come in happy days....
anyway how this hand turn out......??

Ste05

Lloyd, this whole line of thinking is flawed, the plan for this hand is not to get away if a flush hits, we're trying to get as much money into the pot now and the best way to do this is to raise now. The two guys left in the pot have only 200 or so, if we re-raise now they are playing for their whole stack, we want them to call with their flush draws or push with them, or basically do whatever the fcuk they want with them, but they're doing it on our terms, i.e. paying for the pleasure of dogging us.

Basically any PP that would raise PF with will play for their stack, they either have trips or an over pair and a gut shot, 2 pair hands will call, this is basically a wet dream situation for me, get as much money into the middle ASAP.

Another point, when we raise here, the turn is basically irrelevant because the pot will be so big and most of their stack will be in the middle (just where we want it). Also flat calling means we are looking for someone to do the betting for us, something you should never do, unless you have a very bad passive calling station image, (and there's more problems there then worrying about how to play this hand), as you say there's a good chance this flop will be welcomed by the PF raiser, so why not try and get his money in quickly rather than giving him a chance to fold, a call re-raise looks very strong and only reduces our expectation for the hand.

Raise the bloody thing...

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Bandana boy

I like betting here as a set an oe draw a pair and fd will all likely raise me here and these really are the hands that we would expect to bet in which case we get all in.
And it being the SE we usually get players drawing dead will call here but not bet

Ste05

I'm not talking about right now, I'm talking about when we pot it, if they decide to play on they are playing for their whole stack, say we make it €100 - 125 and we are called the pot will be over €300 and our opponents will have less than a pot bet left, therefore it's much easier to get their whole tank in, also if we are raised they'll have to raise All-In, it just makes the whole thing much easier. I wasn't referring to them being pot committed now, I was referring to pot committing them if they decide to play on with the hand. If they fold then they never had anything anyway, or certainly weren't going to commit their stack without having us beaten.

eggie

I bet 100 - 120 here. If they push so be it, we have the nuts at this point.

2 pair, set, AQ, all possible aswell as the flush draw, maybe even an underpair, action behind will give better indication of what you are up against but i wouldnt give any free cards here. Paired board on the turn would be scary though if you get lots of action on the flop :eek:

I was at your table last night sam, which villain? What time was this at?

El Stuntman

Ste05 wrote:

I'm not talking about right now, I'm talking about when we pot it, if they decide to play on they are playing for their whole stack, say we make it €100 - 125 and we are called the pot will be over €300 and our opponents will have less than a pot bet left, therefore it's much easier to get their whole tank in, also if we are raised they'll have to raise All-In, it just makes the whole thing much easier. I wasn't referring to them being pot committed now, I was referring to pot committing them if they decide to play in with the hand. If they fold then they never had anything anyway, or certainly weren't going to commit their stack without having us beaten.

well explainified, that's what I intendamented to communicify

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

I re-raise big preflop here. As played I pot the bollocks out of it. Any other line is generally suboptimal in these sort of games.

shaydy

Pot it now and shove any raise if no raise and just a call i shove any non diamond/non board pairing turn..............and the results are??

Gholimoli

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Two points:

A) The flop is a good one for the pre - flop raiser to continue with. The short stack putting in his remaining chips will be no surprise to anybody. Therefore, it is highly likely that there will be a re - raise behind you. I believe that a flat call of 25 will look much weaker than a raise.

If you make it 75 - 90 to go now, the unfortunate truth about the emporium is that the flush draw will still call, but the two - pair // Top pair might not re - raise. Both villians might still call anyway (common in the Emporium), meaning that you (1) have not got any players off the pot and (2) have not got as much money as you would like in on the flop

C) If the pot is raised, we re - pot. If they both fold to this play then grand - we have taken down a nice little score and are favorite to hold out against the shortstack for the main pot. If one of the villian calls then we have got the max money possible in with the nuts on the flop. One scenario is acceptable - the other ideal.

If it is smooth called behind and a diamond appears on the turn, then we have only invested €37 in the pot thus far. We can assess the moves of both villians and maybe look to play cautiously to the river or drop to heavy action.


My ultimate line is that if we raise we won't remove the flush draw most times in the Emporium. We may just create a €250 pot with three players. In such a case, when the diamond arrives do we take another bet? If we're beat then we lose the max. Do we check then? And leave ourselves open to being bluffed off the pot or make a crying call with the second best hand.

I say gamble that we can get the most in on the flop by smooth calling and putting in the third raise when it comes back around.

not being smart but this reasoning is even worse than your first post Llyod.

Rnger

LuckyLloyd wrote:

My ultimate line is that if we raise we won't remove the flush draw most times in the Emporium. We may just create a €250 pot with three players. In such a case, when the diamond arrives do we take another bet? If we're beat then we lose the max. Do we check then? And leave ourselves open to being bluffed off the pot or make a crying call with the second best hand.

IF the diamond arrives... you seem to have a very defeatist attitude

You want the flush draws to hang around when theyre not getting the correct odds. We will create a 250e pot where we are favourites to win

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Gholimoli

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Well it is kinda smart Ehsan tbh. Tho I agree that I should re - assess my thinking on the basis of some of the counter arguements presented.

i wasnt trying to be at all .
but your arguments were mostly opossit of what is correct.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

jbravado

Many thanks for the advice folks-many a valid point.

Played out as follows:I was really torn about what to do and delayed a little too long which probaly revealed the strength of my hand a little.I decided to keep it simple and potted the fcuk of it.
Both folded and I took down a smallish pot-not often you flop the nuts and wasnt sue if I maximised my profit.Loose decent guys said if I called he was lumping it with top pair.:(
I think in rerospect steos line might be the best.

Eggie, think I know who you are-what seat were you in?It wasnt too late around twoish-villian one was greyhearded guy-laid down jacks on a small scary flop beforehand.

mickste

i was playing at this table sam in seat 7 i think when you joined. i knew u had something all right as u weren'e bluffing when you were making decent sized bets. you got off to a flyer with that aq when a certain somebody called you all in on the turn to try and hit two pair!

i thought ur play was good but might of been tempted for one more card, considering what some of these people considered calling during the night.

Samba

jbravado wrote:

Many thanks for the advice folks-many a valid point.

Played out as follows:I was really torn about what to do and delayed a little too long which probaly revealed the strength of my hand a little.I decided to keep it simple and potted the fcuk of it.
Both folded and I took down a smallish pot-not often you flop the nuts and wasnt sue if I maximised my profit.Loose decent guys said if I called he was lumping it with top pair.:(
I think in rerospect steos line might be the best.

Eggie, think I know who you are-what seat were you in?It wasnt too late around twoish-villian one was greyhearded guy-laid down jacks on a small scary flop beforehand.

Better to win a small pot than lose a big one, did you have a d in your hand?

peeko

LuckyLloyd wrote:

:rolleyes: wanders off to re - assess....

the difference between a good and bad player

jbravado

I had no diamonds.

Mickste are you the guy who survived the 78 hearts fluh draw push?

I really pushed that aq hand a bit hard but knew time was running out to play a big pot against him.

I was very tempted to go down the route Lyoyd suggested -turns out I would of had a tough decisison as the board paired on fourth street.