Land boundary

Furze

Is there defined legal boundaries between holdings ? My understanding is that Land Registry maps are useless to resolve disputes ?
Take farms divided by a ditch with hedge on one side - where is the
dividing line ?

baikal

my understanding is the boundry line is the middle of the ditch but the ditch (march ditch) cannot be removed without both landowners permission.

Sundy

Furze wrote:

Is there defined legal boundaries between holdings ? My understanding is that Land Registry maps are useless to resolve disputes ?
Take farms divided by a ditch with hedge on one side - where is the
dividing line ?

most likely the boundry line would run along the edge of the ditch on the opposite side to the hedge:

IE: FIELD:HEDGE:DITCH:BOUNDRY:FIELD

But then this is only an assumption and may be inncorrect. It comes from the notition that if you dig a ditch/drain you will pill the clay on your own side.

No there are no defined legal boundries, the irish land registry uses concept of general boundaries or ie. non-conclusive boundaries.

Furze

Sundy wrote:

But then this is only an assumption and may be inncorrect. It comes from the notition that if you dig a ditch/drain you will pill the clay on your own side.

Thanks - My understanding as well. Problem is that fencing (physical barrier) is normally, for ease, strung along hedge.
On change of ownership, the fact that you did not dig the ditch, would this make any difference.

Anyone know of legal precedent? test case?

europerson

My understanding, as a landowner, is that a ditch or hedge can be owned by only one party, i.e.,

A's Field : A's Ditch/Hedge : B's Field
or
A's Field : B's Ditch/Hedge : B's Field.

Land Registry maps do show who owns a ditch or hedge, as far as I know.

All land boundaries are recorded. That's what we pay solicitors such high conveyancing fees for!

maidhc

europerson wrote:

All land boundaries are recorded. That's what we pay solicitors such high conveyancing fees for!

Recorded they are but accurate they are not.

The file plan is not conclusive as to the boundaries, to do so would be unworkable.

The case btw is Tomkins Estates v. O'Callaghan (29 May 1995).

Oldtree

Under english common law, and irish law is based on english common law

The ditch is dug on your property, the spoil is put onto your property side of the ditch, and the hedge planted onto the spoil.

kosice21

i purchased a propery over 11 years ago, and my to my left is a private lane which is divided by a row of trees between myself and my neighbour.

on my neighbours side was a drain which he has filled in the last couple of weeks and cut back the headge on his side.

im also aware that he has removed some briars / headge row and my concern is that with him driving down this lane each day and having full view into my field should i ever want to build on this field he could object.

should he have filled in this drain,
when the drain is on his side of the ditch does this mean i own the ditch
and can he remove headge row at his leasure.
what rights will he have to ditch going forward if i dont do something.

any advice would be appricated

bluewill

My property is bounded on tow sides by a wall/ditch, on another side by a main road and on the fourth side by a private lane. My boundary extends to the middle of the main road, should it also extend to the middle of the lane?

freedominacup

bluewill wrote: »

My property is bounded on tow sides by a wall/ditch, on another side by a main road and on the fourth side by a private lane. My boundary extends to the middle of the main road, should it also extend to the middle of the lane?

No, you could own all, none or part of the lane if it is private. The public road has no relevance in this case afaik. It should be marked on your folio/deeds as to whether you own the lane or any part of it. You could in fact own none of it but have a right of way over it. There are almost endless answers to your question. If you have unfettered use of the lane then less said best said.

bluewill

That is interesting. How do I prove I have right if way on the lane?

freedominacup

bluewill wrote: »

That is interesting. How do I prove I have right if way on the lane?

It should be on a deed somewhere. But if you haven't been exercising it, it could be lapsed. My in-laws have a lane that runs through their yard and one of their neighbours has aright of way through it. Once a year normally on a winters day at dinnertime they walk a couple of horses up this lane in order to maintain their right of way. How much claim this gives them to the right of way I don't know but they do it nonetheless.

bluewill

Thanks to Freedominacup for the information

freedominacup

bluewill wrote: »

Thanks to Freedominacup for the information

Not a legal opinion. I could be wrong on it all.:D

Ask delaval he thinks I'm wrong on everything

Farmergiles51

DBoundary question
Hi all,was just wondering if anybody would be able to help me with a land boundary problem.My neighbour rang me yesterday and told me he wanted to fence our boundary ditch,I have been having problems with him for years with his cattle breaking into my field so I thought this is great we will have an end to the problem,but as usual there is a catch,on my side of the ditch is all trees and on his side is a dyke he want to cut down all the trees ,which he kindly offered to drop on his side so I wouldn't have to clean up after him,small car trailer loads of timber down our way are making 70 euros so he wouldn't be doing me any favours,and put the new fence up where the trees were.What I'm wondering is that is the boundary on his side the middle of the dyke or is it the ditch with the trees,also if it is the ditch with the trees he's surely not entitled to cut them all down.Any help would be greatly appreciated.Also as its his cattle breaking into me is it up to him to pay for the fencing,the last thing I want to do is fall out with anybody but I want to make sure things are done properly.

freedominacup

Farmergiles51 wrote: »

DBoundary question
Hi all,was just wondering if anybody would be able to help me with a land boundary problem.My neighbour rang me yesterday and told me he wanted to fence our boundary ditch,I have been having problems with him for years with his cattle breaking into my field so I thought this is great we will have an end to the problem,but as usual there is a catch,on my side of the ditch is all trees and on his side is a dyke he want to cut down all the trees ,which he kindly offered to drop on his side so I wouldn't have to clean up after him,small car trailer loads of timber down our way are making 70 euros so he wouldn't be doing me any favours,and put the new fence up where the trees were.What I'm wondering is that is the boundary on his side the middle of the dyke or is it the ditch with the trees,also if it is the ditch with the trees he's surely not entitled to cut them all down.Any help would be greatly appreciated.Also as its his cattle breaking into me is it up to him to pay for the fencing,the last thing I want to do is fall out with anybody but I want to make sure things are done properly.

You fence your side of the ditch and let him put his fence up outside the dyke on his side. Boundary is almost certainly the centre of the ditch. Trees are yours.

knotknowbody

freedominacup wrote: »

You fence your side of the ditch and let him put his fence up outside the dyke on his side. Boundary is almost certainly the centre of the ditch. Trees are yours.

May not be true, as far as I know the situation is whoever owns the dyke also owns the ditch, there was a court case years ago that decided this. A friend was in dispute with a neighbour of his about a year ago and both ended up with the solicitors both were referred to the case, I can't remember the name of the case now but it basically said that it the boundary would be as follows.

FIELD A BOUNDARY HEDGE DYKE FIELD B

The reasoning being that the owner of FIELD B dug the dyke on his own land, piled the spoil up on his own land as near to the boundary as possible, then planted the hedge on the spoil.

In the above case that would mean the trees belong to the neighbour.

Farmergiles51

knotknowbody wrote: »

May not be true, as far as I know the situation is whoever owns the dyke also owns the ditch, there was a court case years ago that decided this. A friend was in dispute with a neighbour of his about a year ago and both ended up with the solicitors both were referred to the case, I can't remember the name of the case now but it basically said that it the boundary would be as follows.

FIELD A BOUNDARY HEDGE DYKE FIELD B

The reasoning being that the owner of FIELD B dug the dyke on his own land, piled the spoil up on his own land as near to the boundary as possible, then planted the hedge on the spoil.

In the above case that would mean the trees belong to the neighbour.

Theres a stone wall built along the boundary about half the lenght of the field and along the rest is the remanents of one and on top of that was differnt assortment of wire as the need arose,would i be wrong in thinking that where the wire starts an finishes is where the boundary is.

05Mav

Does anybody have a reference to the case knotknowbody is on about.

I have a similar situation with my neighbour (a farmer), i approached him about cutting a few trees, 1 ash and a few elder/whitethorn out of a boundary between us (total length 90m) want to cut about 20m, as i am going to build a new property 6 meters from the boundary.

First of all he says i can't because he is in reps, then he says he wants them for shelter. It is only one 10 acre field he has in the area, he lives 8 miles away. When i asked did he know what the boundary was he said it ran up the centre of the trees. (The boundary is made up mostly of trees and no hedge). My understanding was the trees were mine and his boundary ran up to the edge of the bank.

The makeup of the boundary is, my lawn/land runs right up to a bank where the elder trees and ash are. The other side of the bank is fairly straight on his side (no slope), then his fence. It looks as if the boundary was dug out on his side and put into me. As the site does not exist on one of the oldest OSI maps i can view online.

The OSI maps/land registery map don't say a whole lot either.

The elder and whitethorn are taking over, the whole bank and trunk of tree is full of ivy. The ash tree is to large and close to the property. Some of the elder/whitethorn have blown down the last few years onto his fence.

I am aslo planning on replacing what i cut down with some beech tree hedging.

surveydog

In the following scenario of the ditch and spoil boundary (that the spoil from the ditch is placed on the property of the party who digs the ditch) where the original ditch was dug as a drain and not as a boundary and years later the land is then divided through a sale and that there are now two properties either side of this ditch and spoil. Is there a definite boundary?

One other aspect of the ditch and spoil boundary is the responsibility for maintaining of the ditch. Who is responsible for this?

_Brian

In our area it's a taken that the spoil with te hedge/trees on is the boundary and the responsibility of the landowner on that side if the ditch.

Now it's unhelpful that most lads call the spoil with the hedge "the ditch" and the dug out ditch is called a "gripe".

Muckit

The boundary in many cases is the middle of the hedge or mound on one side. It's NOT the middle of the ditch (drain). Disputes can arise over which side of the ditch the boundary exists.

One party owns the ditch (drain) and is responsible for the maintenance along the length of the portion that runs through his/her land. Your not allowed deepen or change gradients, only clean it of growth and loose slug etc

surveydog

Thanks for that. Is there a definite rule at law that states that the boundary is the Spoil/Hedge and if so could you direct me there?

gozunda

surveydog wrote: »

Thanks for that. Is there a definite rule at law that states that the boundary is the Spoil/Hedge and if so could you direct me there?

Afaik there is no definitive rule that "states that the boundary is the Spoil/Hedge" rather it is default that the owner who dug a ditch and threw the spoil backwards on to his own land - making him the owner of the ditch and the bank made of the spoil from the ditch. This matter is further complicated with regard to terminology as the bank in Ireland is refereed to as the 'ditch' which in the UK is more correctly the drain/hole dug used to build the bank. There will be exceptions to this rule which may be recorded on deeds and these also need to be taken into account. Then there are banks with no ditches (drains) etc. There are several law books that I have came across that go into some detail relating to this matter.

This is a recent one I came across - haven't read it yet though

http://www.claruspress.ie/shop/neighbours-and-the-law/

surveydog

Thank you, much appreciated