Extracting the most from quads, 5-10 NLH

Daithio

Playing 5-10 on the new betfair site, unfortunately there are no HH's for some stupid reason so I'll just have to write it out.

6 handed game, I've just sat in about 3 hands ago, so have no reads on any players at all.

Preflop : I'm in the sb anyway and I'm sitting on $1000. I limp with 55, and the BB (sitting on $4000) makes it $30 to go. I call.

Flop : 953 rainbow($60). I lead for $40, he flat calls. Comments?

Turn 9535 ($140). completes rainbow. I check, he bets $100, I flat call. Comments?

River 95352 ($340). I lead for $280, he flat calls and mucks AA (apparently, but I believe him, I've been playing at the table for a while now since and he's a decent solid player).

Anyway I can't help feeling that I could have gotten more out of AA here. Was I just 'unlucky' to hit quads and put a possible set on the board, and is that why I made no more? Or could I have played the turn or river differently to make more cash? Maybe lead the turn, check the river or bet more on the river? Opinions please.

pok3rplaya

I think not raising preflop is a huge mistake here. Put it this way, you raise, he reraises, you call and stack him.

But thats all results orientated, you cant look at the results and then look back over the hand and think "hmmm.. how could I have got more from AA?"
I mean look at the turn card, if you bet the turn then he will probably raise with his AA and you can get more out of him. But thats being results orientated. What aboput all the times that he has 92o in this situation? He will fold all these type of hands if you bet the turn. So this means that even though betting the turn would be higher EV in this one hand, it would lead to a lower overall value in terms of all the blinds battle hands like this that we play.

Apart from not raising pf, I think it's fine.

shoutman

Well I suppose it has to do with how you are playing up to now but would you not check call the flop? Or would he instantly put you on a great hand?

Daithio

I don't like raising preflop OOP with these sort of hands, especially when I don't know the table tbh. If I miss, which is more than likely, I'm playing an inflated pot OOP. I prefer to try and see a cheap flop, flop a set or get away from it cheaply. I'd nearly always raise in late position with this hand.

bohsman

I bet the flop, check the turn and bet the river.

cardshark202

I think leading big on all streets is best, especially once he calls the flop as you know he has something.

EDIT: If its folded to me in the sb I raise here most of the time.

Daithio

shoutman wrote:

Well I suppose it has to do with how you are playing up to now but would you not check call the flop? Or would he instantly put you on a great hand?

I like leading with sets. If they actually do have a hand you tend to make more out of it. I'd mix it up of course and I would defo check from time to time and against certain players, just on this occasion I decided to lead.

bohsman

Who won the pot?

Daithio

cardshark202 wrote:

EDIT: If its folded to me in the sb I raise here most of the time.

I can defo see the argument for raising, and from time to time I would, but I like to get a feel for a table before I start raising like that. I'd only been there for 3 hands so I usually tread carefully until I have a fair idea what everybody's at.

pok3rplaya

Daithio wrote:

I don't like raising preflop OOP with these sort of hands, especially when I don't know the table tbh. If I miss, which is more than likely, I'm playing an inflated pot OOP. I prefer to try and see a cheap flop, flop a set or get away from it cheaply. I'd nearly always raise in late position with this hand.

The EV generated from (the times you raise and he folds pf + the times you raise and hit a set + the times you raise and take it down with a cbet) is far greater then (the times you call a raise and hit a set + the times you pick up a tiny pot uncontested on the flop).

Say you have 55 and he has AA, raising pf doesn't lower the possibliy that he stacks off post flop. It just increaces the EV of all the times when he doesn't have AA.

pok3rplaya

cardshark202 wrote:

I think leading big on all streets is best, especially once he calls the flop as you know he has something.

His 'something' will most of the time be a really marginall hand which folds to an OOP turn bet. There is loads of hands which will bet if you check the turn in this position but which would have folded if you had bet.

Ste05

Bet the turn. The 5 isn't going to scare him are you likely to have called a raise OOP with any hand that would have a 5 in it and then lead the flop (i.e. some 2 pair hand - unlikely), betting conceals your hand and increases the size of the pot, which isn't that big at the moment, you should be trying to get your remaining ~900 into the pot, and the best way to do that is to lead again.

Checking reduces your expectation for the rest of the hand because all you can expect to pick up is one bet on the turn (if he bets and you call) and then a reduced possibility of another bet on the River, whereas leading the turn increases the expectation of doubling up.

I haven't explained that very well, quick typing, but basically leading turn has a much higher Expectation...

Daithio

Ste05 wrote:

I haven't explained that very well, quick typing, but basically leading turn has a much higher Expectation...

Yeah I think that's the best stratagy. I just had one of those 'sh1t, I've hit quads, what do I do?' moments, and checked without even thinking.

cardshark202

pok3rplaya wrote:

cardshark202 wrote:

I think leading big on all streets is best, especially once he calls the flop as you know he has something.

His 'something' will most of the time be a really marginall hand which folds to an OOP turn bet. There is loads of hands which will bet if you check the turn in this position but which would have folded if you had bet.

He has raised preflop, called the flop so he has something. The turn is somewhat of a blank for him so if he called the flop he will most likely at least call the turn lead.

ocallagh

He played this very cautiously and i'm surprised you didn't get more.. Against a lot of players you will see them raise at some stage with AA and this is where you can get your stack in. Against some rocky players you need to do the betting for them. In those intances I probably slightly overbet the turn, maybe 150, and then bet 400 on the river. Basically you have shown strength and your opponent has gone into check/call mode. This hapens when your opponent is a solid rocky player and does not know your style, or perceieves you to be a rock. You can always get more than you think when someone goes into check/call mode! especially when they can still beat a lot of hands you could be betting with, QQ, KK etc.

ianmc38

I think the msitake was on the turn. You should really be betting. Check calling the turn and donking the river is a line i see all the time from monsters at the lower levels.

I think bet flop, bet turn and bet river is probably best though I like check raising the river against some opponents.

califano

I said step-pause-turn-pause-pivot-step-step,
not step-pause-turn-pause-pivot-step-pause! Shudder:rolleyes: !

bops

ianmc38 wrote:

I think the msitake was on the turn. You should really be betting. Check calling the turn and donking the river is a line i see all the time from monsters at the lower levels.

I think bet flop, bet turn and bet river is probably best though I like check raising the river against some opponents.

...that's the way to do it!!

fuzzbox

He played his hand well, thats all there is too it.

You can try a river check/raise - and maybe that gets a bit more, but maybe he folds to it.

But you cant really expect him to raise the turn for you - he will prolly call the turn, and call the river, and you make precisely the same amount from him.

Gholimoli

pok3rplaya wrote:

I mean look at the turn card, if you bet the turn then he will probably raise with his AA and you can get more out of him. But thats being results orientated. What aboput all the times that he has 92o in this situation? He will fold all these type of hands if you bet the turn. So this means that even though betting the turn would be higher EV in this one hand, it would lead to a lower overall value in terms of all the blinds battle hands like this that we play.

Apart from not raising pf, I think it's fine.

this is not true.
there is no "wht if he had this hand or that hand" or "higher over all EV for the different holdinggs he could have in this situation".
the thing about this hand is that it comes uo so rarely that you have to really look at it as an isolated situation IMO.
its not like playing draws or TP etc that come up all the time so your going to have to choose the best over all line EV wise.
so basically trying to figure out the best over all line here i pointless IMO and my assumtion of over all is when the situation repeats it self.

IMO you should bet on every street here and bet big to build the pot.
by checking the turn you have missed a chance to build the pot which not only makes you miss one betting round but also it has kep the pot smaller making you bet a smaller amount on the river .
i mean say a pot sized bet on the river wouldnt obviously be the same size if there was a bet on the turn than if there wasnt.
thats what i think anyway.

fuzzbox

I think check/call flop then lead turn is better than lead/lead/lead.

The 953r flop is not one that will hit a lot of hands, so c/c is better than lead.

But thats me.

phantom_lord

I'd go with c/c flop, lead turn and river. I think leading the turn is better to ensure we build a pot, really don't want a check behind, if they fold then we weren't getting much more out of them anyway, a bigger pot means we can lead for more on the river.

bohsman

fuzzbox wrote:

I think check/call flop then lead turn is better than lead/lead/lead.

The 953r flop is not one that will hit a lot of hands, so c/c is better than lead.

But thats me.

Dont think theres much in it but I like to show weakness at some stage of the hand - Id weak lead the flop and check the turn to give them a chance to bluff

Ste05

Personally I'd prefer lead, lead, CRAI, but again that's just me...

Doc Farrell

rounders123 wrote:

I said step-pause-turn-pause-pivot-step-step,
not step-pause-turn-pause-pivot-step-pause! Shudder:rolleyes: !

lmao

i mighta chucked it all in at the end and hoped for a call but if he's a half decent player I wouldn't have made the 280 u did.

gl to u and ken in asia kiddo.

Daithio

I suppose why I led the flop and then checked the turn is because this often looks very weak to me after a player has called a raise OOP. Kind of looks like they may have completely missed the flop and figured their only way to win the pot was a bet, then when they get a call they shut up shop on fourth street.

The only problem with this strategy however is that if the villain falls into your trap and bets the turn after you've checked, once you show interest in the pot again they will now think you're strong rather than weak. I think it works better in tournaments where the stacks are shallow though, and often the villain's bet on the turn will pot commit him. This was my mistake I think.

I prefer leading the flop though, I think check calling flop leading turn looks very strong. I think leading all three streets is best, depending on what sort of holding you have them on. I really didn't have enough info about this guy to be able to narrow him down to a definite strong hand though.

What does everyone think about preflop? Raise or limp? I'd often raise here but chose to limp purely because I didn't know how the table/ my opponents were playing, and I prefer to have more info before raising OOP with marginal hands. But pokerplaya made a point that raising with 55 here is always the correct play, opinions?

valor

Preflop is a definite raise

robinlacey

i would raise preflop but that's because i never open limp,but thats not really that relevent to the hand

i definitely bet the turn here,i mean when you have quads you're just praying they have something and trying to build a pot,if they fold you don't really lose much,maybe a turn bluff from them,but a turn bluff in an unraised pot isn't going to be much anyway,you may as well just try and get as much money in as possible

fuzzbox

Daithio wrote:

I suppose why I led the flop and then checked the turn is because this often looks very weak to me after a player has called a raise OOP. Kind of looks like they may have completely missed the flop and figured their only way to win the pot was a bet, then when they get a call they shut up shop on fourth street.

The only problem with this strategy however is that if the villain falls into your trap and bets the turn after you've checked, once you show interest in the pot again they will now think you're strong rather than weak. I think it works better in tournaments where the stacks are shallow though, and often the villain's bet on the turn will pot commit him. This was my mistake I think.

I prefer leading the flop though, I think check calling flop leading turn looks very strong. I think leading all three streets is best, depending on what sort of holding you have them on. I really didn't have enough info about this guy to be able to narrow him down to a definite strong hand though.

What does everyone think about preflop? Raise or limp? I'd often raise here but chose to limp purely because I didn't know how the table/ my opponents were playing, and I prefer to have more info before raising OOP with marginal hands. But pokerplaya made a point that raising with 55 here is always the correct play, opinions?

What would you do with 88 ?
77 ?
A9?
Q9?

I like c/c and then lead turn cos I would do it with lots of hands.
Also - the board is so draw free, that if he has a big hand, then he probably is not going to try to protect it, he will just call you down.
If he does not, then your lead might prevent him from making a CB.

However - I do like the lead play, in general.

Ste05

PF - mixing it up is best, when folded around to you in the SB, sometimes raise, sometimes call, depending on reads, how the table has been playing, your image, who is in the BB, etc. etc., against an unknown player as in this situation, I think limping is fine, although also raising is fine, both would have different outcomes depending on how you plan on playing the session, usually there'll be quite a few battles between yourself and the BB, so I'd just play it accordingly.

I also agree with you Dave about pretending to give up on the turn and then waking up again, looks very strong, that's why I prefer to pretend to give up on the river and then ask him the ultimate question, i.e. lead, lead, CRAI.

Daithio

fuzzbox wrote:

What would you do with 88 ?
77 ?
A9?
Q9?

Not entirely certain I lead the turn with these hands.

ocallagh

Against a good opponent i just bet every street aggresively, hoping they have something.

Against a standard internet donk i check at some stage in the hand....

Against a really bad player I just bet every street again, and push the river.

Hectorjelly

I think given your flop lead a turn check is terrible for obvious reasons.

In this hand I much prefer a check raise on the flop. Leading out with sets is normally better, but in this case I think a checkraise is much better because its a blind battle.

I never raise that preflop, but I hardly ever raise from the sb.

Daithio

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think given your flop lead a turn check is terrible for obvious reasons.

In this hand I much prefer a check raise on the flop. Leading out with sets is normally better, but in this case I think a checkraise is much better because its a blind battle.

I never raise that preflop, but I hardly ever raise from the sb.

The way I played it I agree not leading the turn is horrible.

I don't like a check raise on the flop though. I think it gives away the strength of your hand altogether. If I'm him with AA here and get check raised on such an innocuous looking flop I might fold to a strong lead from my opponent on the turn, depending on how well I'm playing. The point about it being a battle of the blinds does make a difference, but I don't think battles of the blinds with marginal hands are quite as common in cash as in tournament. Maybe I'm wrong?

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think given your flop lead a turn check is terrible for obvious reasons.

In this hand I much prefer a check raise on the flop. Leading out with sets is normally better, but in this case I think a checkraise is much better because its a blind battle.

I never raise that preflop, but I hardly ever raise from the sb.

I agree, I never raise pre-flop either, but I disagreewith your flop play. With 100BBs check raising the flop loses value on later streets. The second you check raise an unkown player, they will shutdown and try get to a showdown as cheap as possible..
IMO check raising is only good if you have history with the player. I much prefer value betting every street against a standard player.

saying that, check min-raising with a semi bluff is strife thru tribeca right now tho so maybe it would work there!!

fuzzbox

I kinda like a cr on this flop as it is a blind battle.

Basically - its hard to play this hand badly :-).

Hectorjelly

If we check raise the flop any further action is all in. If the guy is going to play tight to a check raise then leading is probably better, but in all of the games ive been playing recently (12) this isnt the case. If the guy is tight enough to fold AA to a check raise and lead turn then we should be bluffing the hell out of him.

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

I kinda like a cr on this flop as it is a blind battle.

Basically - its hard to play this hand badly :-).

Check call flop, check min raise turn then lead river for 1/20th of the pot is pretty bad, and its how a lot of people would play it!

Bandana boy

Hectorjelly wrote:

Check call flop, check min raise turn then lead river for 1/20th of the pot is pretty bad, and its how a lot of people would play it!

Damn i was just about to suggest this :eek:

hotspur

Check raising either the flop or turn is a pretty lousy line in my opinion unless he's caught you doing it that on a bluff. If the opponent is a strong player then he's basically told you on that rainbow and no realistic straight draw flop that he has a premium pair with his call. Floating in this spot is so much worse than reraising that he's unlikely to have air with that call, anyone other than a weak player at that level will also likely repop it with 6's,7's,8's, and also 10's,J's, and some players with Q's, also A9 is a raise.

So he basically told you on the flop that he has a top pair or lucked a set of 3's or 9's. So at that point continuing to represent top pair or an over is the right move so leading the turn and river is appropriate. A check raise on the turn gets a fold from a good player too many times for it to be a better line. The lead, check call, lead line is fine with a set at lower stakes, but with quads at 5/10 shorthanded I think lead, lead, lead is the way to play it.

Just a small note about the betting I think a full pot sized $60 bet on the flop, then a $140 turn bet into the $180 pot, and around $340 on the river into the $460 pot would lead to $120 extra without altering the dynamic of your betting.

bops

the bottom line is, sadly:

It's very hard to get paid with quads

Bandana boy

your mistake here was not rivering an ace

ianmc38

I think check raising the turn is the worst street to check raise in this hand. Lead flop and turn and cr river or cr flop are best imho.

cardshark202

Hectorjelly wrote:

I never raise that preflop, but I hardly ever raise from the sb.

I would be interested to here why you would never open-raise 55 from the SB. What would you do with AA or KK; surely you raise them most of the time. I think its better to raise than to limp here most of the time.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

I think check raising the turn is the worst street to check raise in this hand. Lead flop and turn and cr river or cr flop are best imho.

if you lead flop and turn and he calls and you check the river ,he is hardley ever going to raise it there to give you a chance to CR.