Wild Geese Restraint Course/BJJ

edges

Try this link, has some invaluable info for the beginner and more experienced BJJ man alike:

http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/street_jiu_jitsu.htm

john kavanagh

lol thats good! what idiot would pull guard on THE STREET?? although there is a lot of idiots in MA!

but there's funnier clips on that site like this one

right click, save as

the part of him punching the wall and kicking it plus doing his little 'killa' moves reminds me of the jedi kid LOL!:D . also the ref wearing his BB during that (very poor) MMA bout is hilarious, he was just missing his american flag pants

actually 'edges' was going to ask you about your Control and Restraint Tactics classes on sundays. can anybody drop out?

"We will show you ways to effectively restrain a noncompliant aggressor until assistance arrives. We look at ways to put a person on the floor, how to keep him there, and how to pick him back up again, all under control."

this sounds interesting especially this part

"We will teach you effective techniques and expect you to be able to apply them under pressure"

i've been to many control and restraint classes where they just do endless repetitions with a compliant partner but you guys 'apply them under pressure' - so with the other guy resisting or fighting back yes?

Ger Healy

with the other guy resisting or fighting back yes?

If his fighting back it sounds hardcore to me.

edges

Hi John,

The training we offer is aimed at security/police, and is based on the FMA and Kenpo with a good bit of stuff we've tried and tested on doors. We show a series/progression of locks, takedowns and teamwork and as the student becomes more proficient, we gradually remove compliance.

For a good jujitsu (of any kind) man the course should be like being told to suck eggs. Although we may have a different emphasis.

We had a small group of doormen training with us earlier in the year and all enjoyed the training and have come back with reports of how it helped them on the door.

One guy told his boss that if he sent all the lads to us, none of the punters would ever get hit.


And was that video you posted real or a spoof

All the best

Dave

john kavanagh

edges wrote:

And was that video you posted real or a spoof

dont know, from the same site you posted from.

edges wrote:

One guy told his boss that if he sent all the lads to us, none of the punters would ever get hit.

so you teach them to control people without hitting them, cool. That's pretty much what BJJ does and why i'd be interested in seeing how a different system does this.

John Kavanagh wrote:

can anybody drop out?

?

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote:

so you teach them to control people without hitting them, cool. That's pretty much what BJJ does and why i'd be interested in seeing how a different system does this.



?

Why not get a job on a door and see which system works best. Nothing like experience on the job!.

BJJ isn't the be all and end all JK, its a sport, thats all. I've worked doors for over fifteen year's, and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had to hit someone. And most of those year's I'd absolutely no JJ/BJJ or other grappling styles training.

Nothing like having alot of experience and the gift of the gab when your in the trenches!.

Colm_OReilly

Hey first time I managed to do that!

a good bit of stuff we've tried and tested on doors

You tested stuff on doors!? I never got in a fight with a door in my life.

For a good jujitsu (of any kind) man the course should be like being told to suck eggs.

I don't get what this means. Perhaps it's the hangover but please explain.

Mairt,
When did JK say BJJ is the be all and end all?
From my experience of being in bars (and I think I thrump anyone else who posts here) bouncers are next to useless at removing people from bars, even sloppily drunk girls.

Colm

gymrabbit

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Hey first time I managed to do that!



You tested stuff on doors!? I never got in a fight with a door in my life.



I don't get what this means. Perhaps it's the hangover but please explain.

Mairt,
When did JK say BJJ is the be all and end all?
From my experience of being in bars (and I think I thrump anyone else who posts here) bouncers are next to useless at removing people from bars, even sloppily drunk girls.

Colm

OReilly is far superior at removing sloppily drunk girls from bars.....

arybvtcw0eolkf

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Mairt,
When did JK say BJJ is the be all and end all?
From my experience of being in bars (and I think I thrump anyone else who posts here) bouncers are next to useless at removing people from bars, even sloppily drunk girls.

Colm

This is hilarious. Posted last night when I was hammered and came on not realising I'd posted here at all.

Sorry, remarks withdrawn (mostly!).

About bouncer's removing drunks, yea most are terrible I agree. In fact, most guys I've worked with have been terrible, period!.

I think most door staff would benefit from either BJJ or JJ training. But when the fur flies on the floor or door its the man with the quickest gun's whose gonna win the fight.

john kavanagh

Mairt wrote:

BJJ isn't the be all and end all JK, its a sport, thats all.

eh, whats your problem Mairt? where did i say that? :rolleyes:

Mairt wrote:

Why not get a job on a door

i've been working 'on the doors' for the past 5 years. so i have experience of dealing with aggressive people using 'sport grappling' systems.

Mairt wrote:

...and see which system works best.

wow what great advice. now if i have experience of one system and want to find out which i think is best how should i do it? hmmm maybe try the other one so i can compare? that sounds like a good idea. oh no wait thats what i'm trying to do on this thread. why not try reading and understanding a bit better Mairt.

Mairt wrote:

And most of those year's I'd absolutely no JJ/BJJ or other grappling styles training

well for someone like me who's 5'9" and about 70kgs if things turn physical and i have to remove someone/break up fight or whatever then i better have some training. for doormen who are much bigger than the average punter they can probably get away with no training as they can just over power them - not an option for me.

Mairt wrote:

and the gift of the gab when your in the trenches!.

i do agree the 'gift of the gab' is very important and whenever possible thats how i deal with situations - however for the few times it does go i'm glad i have training i've got confidence in.

edges

well for someone like me who's 5'9" and about 70kgs if things turn physical and i have to remove someone/break up fight or whatever then i better have some training. for doormen who are much bigger than the average punter they can probably get away with no training as they can just over power them - not an option for me.

Thats exactly right, and I've heard of other BJJ players, of small build, being very effective on the door. Many door staff are big strong guys who can just muscle people around, but pure strength will only get you so far.

These days the rules we have to work with don't allow the "Old School" approach, the ability to restrain with pain control doesn't look brutal to a third party, and (usually) doesn't leave any damage/bruising etc.

Obviously Talking a guy out is better, preventing an incident, better again!

Nothing like having alot of experience and the gift of the gab when your in the trenches!.

Again, dead right, but what about the new guys? One of the lads that came to me has years of experience in some of North Dublins S***holes, but realised the need for other skills other than a right hook.

Originally Posted by Mairt
BJJ isn't the be all and end all JK, its a sport, thats all.

No BJJ isn't the be all and end all, neither in FMA or Kenpo or any other art/system/style.

oh and "suck eggs" sort of means to state the obvious


Dave
www.wildgeesema.com

Millionaire

a friend of mine (was world champ kickboxer)_ with over 20 years door experience and his brother, who was top kickboxerback in their day.

They had a great way on the door when they ran the door on Angles strip bar for a while afew year back . they had a rap they used something like this. all very polite but got the message across in a great way.

"its 5 euro in lads, the dances start at 15 euro up, the drink is normal prices, the girls are nice, and if you touch any of them, we will be speaking in a very very different language" last part was delievered with icy stare that would burn through metal! LOL!!!!

It was great too, we had some great lock in's there, while that gig lasted for them! LOL!

john kavanagh

john kavanagh wrote:

can anybody drop out?

??

arybvtcw0eolkf

JK don't let my drunken internet ramblings hurt your feelings, I hold you in the highest regard.

Even I thought it was hilarious that I posted last night. I'm the worse dot.com drunken whore for arguing with a few gargles on me!.

Kind regards...

M.

john kavanagh

Mairt wrote:

JK don't let my drunken internet ramblings hurt your feelings

you didn't 'hurt my feelings'. you just made stupid points and dumb assumptions.

Mairt wrote:

Even I thought it was hilarious that I posted last night.

ricky gervais is 'hilarious'. i dont see whats so 'hilarious' about someone getting p1ssed then saying what they think :rolleyes:

pma-ire

edges wrote:

Try this link, has some invaluable info for the beginner and more experienced BJJ man alike:

http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/street_jiu_jitsu.htm

The first pic looks like a scene from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

The rest looks a bit like a moive for boys who love boys??

Expecially the second pic and the one with his thumb up??

john kavanagh

just trying to do The Robot and someone comes along with a kick in the head

dlofnep

john kavanagh wrote:

ricky gervais is 'hilarious'.

Yes, yes he is. One of JOB's favourite comedians!

pma-ire

john kavanagh wrote:

just trying to do The Robot and someone comes along with a kick in the head

I was trying to walk like an Egyptian actually!

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote:

you didn't 'hurt my feelings'. you just made stupid points and dumb assumptions.



ricky gervais is 'hilarious'. i dont see whats so 'hilarious' about someone getting p1ssed then saying what they think :rolleyes:

Ok, I take it your feelings were hurt, I'll try thread (pun intended) more carefully around 'em in future.

Btw, when I said I hold you in the highest regard I was being sincere, pity you choose to ignore that. Anyway, back to talking M.A.. I'm not in the habit of dot.com squabbles.

Roper

john kavanagh wrote:

just trying to do The Robot and someone comes along with a kick in the head

That's gas, I'm going to put that on a par with Paddyc's drunken ramble from the other day.... classic.

Just for the record, I always pull guard in the STREET. Not for self defence, but as an informal greeting to people I know, and with people I don't know, I find its a good ice breaker. "Hey how you doing, check this out" *leap*. Anyone who says pulling guard in the street is a bad idea obviously doesn't have my charm.

john kavanagh

Mairt wrote:

Ok, I take it your feelings were hurtQUOTE]

why? because i clearly said "you didn't 'hurt my feelings'" :rolleyes:

Mairt wrote:

Btw, when I said I hold you in the highest regard I was being sincere, pity you choose to ignore that.

i didn't, i just don't care one way or the other.

i was politely asking 'edges' if i could come out and try one of his classes and you start at me claiming i'm saying BJJ is the be all and end all. like most people i get annoyed when people put words in my mouth and make assumptions about what i have and haven't done.

Valmont

john kavanagh wrote:

just trying to do The Robot and someone comes along with a kick in the head

Goodness, LOL

I think the way his right foot is pointed in just makes it:D

Colm_OReilly

John, Mairt, Give it a rest.

Edges, plesase answer John's question.

pma-ire

Valmont wrote:

Goodness, LOL

I think the way his right foot is pointed in just makes it:D

It was pointed in as I was also making a go at the moonwalk!

In a Robot kinda way

arybvtcw0eolkf

Colm_OReilly wrote:

John, Mairt, Give it a rest.

.

Sure. Apologies to you and the board for bringing the discussion off topic.

pma-ire

Mairt wrote:

Sure. Apologies to you and the board for bringing the discussion off topic.

Taking things off topic is never an issue around here!!

arybvtcw0eolkf

pma-ire wrote:

Taking things off topic is never an issue around here!!

Well actually I try to keep to the discussion. In fact in post #10 I'd withdrawn my remarks which I'd made in post #6 and have since apologised to board.

Want went on afterwards was just silly carry on. Anyway like I said, I don't engage in dot.com squables and although he doesn't care for my opinions, as a martial artist I do hold JK in the highest regard & it wasn't my intention to put words in his mouth.

pma-ire

Mairt wrote:

Well actually I try to keep to the discussion. In fact in post #10 I'd withdrawn my remarks which I'd made in post #6 and have since apologised to board.

Want went on afterwards was just silly carry on. Anyway like I said, I don't engage in dot.com squables and although he doesn't care for my opinions, as a martial artist I do hold JK in the highest regard & it wasn't my intention to put words in his mouth.

Chill out man! :cool:

There are sometimes it's better not to post anything at all than to make a comment that could spark off something silly

arybvtcw0eolkf

pma-ire wrote:

Chill out man! :cool:

There are sometimes it's better not to post anything at all than to make a comment that could spark off something silly

I'm too cool not to be chilled!.

pma-ire

edges wrote:

Many door staff are big strong guys who can just muscle people around, but pure strength will only get you so far.

These days the rules we have to work with don't allow the "Old School" approach, the ability to restrain with pain control doesn't look brutal to a third party, and (usually) doesn't leave any damage/bruising etc.

I've just been on tour with my mentor Prof Rick Clark and we had some doormen at the Cork City and Waterford City seminars!

At the Waterford seminar there were 3 big guys who were body builders also! One being a winner of Irelands Strongest Man contest at one point!!

They all went down like a sack of spuds to every pressure point or joint lock used. The fact they had such definded muscles made it easier to get locate points and separate muscles.

yomchi

pma-ire wrote:

I've just been on tour with my mentor Prof Rick Clark and we had some doormen at the Cork City and Waterford City seminars!

At the Waterford seminar there were 3 big guys who were body builders also! One being a winner of Irelands Strongest Man contest at one point!!

They all went down like a sack of spuds to every pressure point or joint lock used. The fact they had such definded muscles made it easier to get locate points and separate muscles.

Qiuckly off topic, how is the tour going Paul?

I'll give Rick a ring today

john kavanagh

pma-ire wrote:

They all went down like a sack of spuds to every pressure point or joint lock used. The fact they had such definded muscles made it easier to get locate points and separate muscles.

were they standing perfectly still allowing him to apply it or resisting/fighting back from the start? a simple choke like a rear naked choke will put someone asleep in about 3-4 secs, the hard part of course is getting it on a struggling opponent

pma-ire

Jon wrote:

Qiuckly off topic, how is the tour going Paul?

I'll give Rick a ring today

He's in Scotland now man!!

The tour was brill!!

I'll post about it in Cathal's thread! Just to keep on topic

pma-ire

Hi John,

john kavanagh wrote:

were they standing perfectly still allowing him to apply it or resisting/fighting back from the start?

Most of this work was done from grabs which would usually follow on with a punch, kick or head butt! So in reality when a person grabs your jacket, top, arm or shoulder that grabbing arm is gonna be in a stationary possition!! As pressure points are so new to most people it's better to let them get comfort able with location of points before asking them to move onto moving situations.

john kavanagh wrote:

a simple choke like a rear naked choke will put someone asleep in about 3-4 secs, the hard part of course is getting it on a struggling opponent

Indeed it will man! But I never said that people were KO'd at the seminars? Maybe I misunderstood this part of your post? But thinking that Pressure Points are all about KO's is a bit of a myth.

Thing is Pressure Points can be use by any fighting style once a person has learnt location, manipulation and application it don't matter then what they do or not do. They can be used!

john kavanagh

pma-ire wrote:

So in reality when a person grabs your jacket, top, arm or shoulder that grabbing arm is gonna be in a stationary possition!!

true. but in my experience as soon as you try and manipulate it, it wont remain stationary and then you are dealing with a resisting opponent.

pma-ire wrote:

As pressure points are so new to most people it's better to let them get comfort able with location of points before asking them to move onto moving situations

agree 100% this is the 'introduction stage'. i was asking were these techniques then performed in the 'isolation stage'? in other words as these are not new to Rick did he demonstrate them on the "3 big guys" while they were fighting back or did they just stand still and let him do it?

pma-ire wrote:

Indeed it will man! But I never said that people were KO'd at the seminars? Maybe I misunderstood this part of your post?

sorry, i was unclear. i was making the point i can show a person how to KO someone with a rear naked choke in less than a minute however it'd take them many many hours of practicing this against resisting opponents before they could hope to hit that position in a real life encounter.

will there be a dublin part of this tour?

Dragan

Colm_OReilly wrote:

You tested stuff on doors!? I never got in a fight with a door in my life.

I got in a fight with a door once, but there was a disgusting ammount of alchohol involved and i just wanted to get in out of the rain.

Now then, i honestly have to say that in my years on doors it was very, very rarely that i had to bodily remove someone from a club. I normally find that a stringent policy on the door, and ensuring your club has a reputation for treating people fairly can do a lot more to keep the crowd in check that having a surly doorman who can lock up an arm.

I am not saying that it is not extremely valuable to know this, only that i have always found the gift of the gab and my happy demeanour has served me better that my mitts or any holds, points etc that i might now!

Edges, this is not to diminish what the course does, as i do feel it is important but i would also ask is there any kind of conflict resolution training done at it?

If not, then hooking up with someone who can teach that type of thing for a joint course would be a valuable addition to the industry.

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote:

will there be a dublin part of this tour?

I'd be very interested in this too.

I've went to some of JJ seminar's (Carslake & Noel McHugh) and found presure point training worked excellent when applied to a real life, violent situation and rarely miss a chance to learn more.

pma-ire

john kavanagh wrote:

true. but in my experience as soon as you try and manipulate it, it wont remain stationary and then you are dealing with a resisting opponent.

I see what your saying man! But if you are ok with locations and how to manipulate/strike a point then that opening attack you have done is used as a set up for a follow on move. Which don't have to be a pp by the way!

I think of a hit ratio out of 10 for people that may not know where a point is.

1:10 to 2:10 = No knowledge of point locations, or how to strike/manipulate them. But may hit one in the course of normal training.

2:5 to 5:10 = Been at a course and over that course because locations become know to you the hit rate goes up. All that is needed is practice, practice, practice!


The rest of the ratios are depending on practice!!

Really I do know what you are saying here John! And I agree with you! Which is why we don't really hit targets that are in motion! If someone comes into grappling range and grabs a gi to throw, or throws a kick! Then we have a static arm that is grabing and a static leg that is holding up the attacker while kicking you!!

So while covering an attack it is sometimes easier to hit an arm or leg than it is to hit the head and torso which is usually natually defended by even the most natural instinct. It's a bit of a shock factor to feel emense pain from a strike to a limb. Which throws out the ballance and intent of that attack.

john kavanagh wrote:

agree 100% this is the 'introduction stage'. i was asking were these techniques then performed in the 'isolation stage'? in other words as these are not new to Rick did he demonstrate them on the "3 big guys" while they were fighting back or did they just stand still and let him do it?

Not so much in that seminar! It was the first one for all of the people there!! But he does sometimes ask to be grabbed and have a punch follow in which he beats with a strike to the grabbing arm.

john kavanagh wrote:

sorry, i was unclear. i was making the point i can show a person how to KO someone with a rear naked choke in less than a minute however it'd take them many many hours of practicing this against resisting opponents before they could hope to hit that position in a real life encounter.

Exactly! The same with this stuff! It takes the person to practice, practice, practice and fit this knowledge into whatever method delivery system they use. Rick will not take people on that step until they can show good location and manipulation.

john kavanagh wrote:

will there be a dublin part of this tour?

There already was!

He was up in Dublin last Friday!!

We are gonna set about getting the next group of sems ready for six months time and there maybe 3 Dublin sems??

I'll have information posted when to hand!!

Mairt,

Email or pm me you email addy and I'll keep you in the loop!!

edges

Dragan wrote:

I got in a fight with a door once, but there was a disgusting ammount of alchohol involved and i just wanted to get in out of the rain.

Now then, i honestly have to say that in my years on doors it was very, very rarely that i had to bodily remove someone from a club. I normally find that a stringent policy on the door, and ensuring your club has a reputation for treating people fairly can do a lot more to keep the crowd in check that having a surly doorman who can lock up an arm.

I am not saying that it is not extremely valuable to know this, only that i have always found the gift of the gab and my happy demeanour has served me better that my mitts or any holds, points etc that i might now!

Edges, this is not to diminish what the course does, as i do feel it is important but i would also ask is there any kind of conflict resolution training done at it?

If not, then hooking up with someone who can teach that type of thing for a joint course would be a valuable addition to the industry.

Hi Dragan

Your views very much echo my own. I honestly believe prevention is a better course of action than cure. Our training is still based around when things go wrong.
I'm not a psycologist or a copper so don't feel qualified to teach Conflict Resolution. I do however offer advice based on experience and my old customer service training (from when I worked with Hilton Hotels). So I stick to what I know.

If not, then hooking up with someone who can teach that type of thing for a joint course would be a valuable addition to the industry.

Sorry to quote you twice, but I think your onto something here, I will do my homework and see if I can find somebody to join us and teach the "verbal" skills (to myself included), while I stick to the "soft" skills and the physical stuff.

Thanks, will let you know