Making do - on how little?

grellan1

Listening to a radio station in the west the other morning, the point was made as to how many people are feeling the pinch financially - in fact they have never really benefited from the celtic tiger and are worse off now than 10 years ago.

What is the average wage now and how little can you manage on?
We're in our late 50's and just struggling to reach our retirement.
All tips appreciated!:)
Grellan.

angeleyes

Hi Grellan

its getting harder and harder to make ends meet.

I decided to not to go back to work to look after our baby and we are now basically on one wage, even though I do get Social Welfare. I worry from month to month.

I cant get any part time work either even though I am trying as I cant afford to pay high child care costs. It is a struggle. My husband has to try and do extra hours overtime but that goes on paying the mortgage which payments are escallating due to the rate increases.

Today someone called to our door wanted us to join a Fine Gael draw and didnt want to take no for an answer. We are already going to be in 2 draws in the next couple of months. I know there are plenty worse off than ourselves but with the cost of living in this country it is hard work so I empathise.

All we can do is struggle on.

Oh we do sometimes save money on our grocery shopping. If you join pigsback.com they do money off vouchers which are brilliant.

angel

maireadmarie

Grellan, it seems nothing much has changed; parents always worried when I was a young mum, and the mortgage is the most sickening thing. We're never really going to own our houses anyway, because we're going to die and leave them eventually, perhaps sooner rather than later with all the anxiety! I think there is room for good landlords with good housing who do not want to completely skin their tenants - now where would such people exist? Time to form a giant, nationwide association for building and renting quality housing? Owned by the people for the people!

bmaxi

maireadmarie wrote:

Time to form a giant, nationwide association for building and renting quality housing? Owned by the people for the people!

Then in a few years time, if it's a success, another shower of Tory ***kers in Merrion Square can sell it off for a pittance to their fatcat friends.

vector

>I cant afford to pay high child care costs

neither can I, so I don't have any children

this might sound harsh but at the end of the day
that is life

to take another example, I'd like to drive a nicer
car, but I simply know I wouldn't be able to afford
the insurance, so I don't buy the car

maireadmarie

Well, actually, Vector, that's the point, life - there is a biological drive to have a family - not a car, although you might want one, it's not the same type of 'want' as wanting a family!
There is something wrong with a system which makes it well-nigh impossible to afford raising a family - though at the back of it all is the fact that people will have children, no matter how difficult it is for them, and the powers that be will be only too pleased to take no responsibility for those children, the future citizens of the state, because it can get away with it!
The fact is that the system just now needs women to work; as soon as women are not needed for the workforce any more, they can go home and mind their children. Either way, it will be left mainly up to them and their partners how to take care of their offspring.

SouperComputer

Have you considered grabbing personal finance software such as quicken?

Ive been using it for just over a month now and the control and direction with my\our finances is amazing! It comes with lots of wizards and budjet planners to help you plan better make ends meet.

Also, get a copy of this book: http://www.amazon.com/Only-Investment-Guide-Youll-Ever/dp/0156029634/sr=8-1/qid=1163102703/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2311621-2832041?ie=UTF8&s=books

Its pretty US-Centric, but whats different about it from other Investment books is that it contains lots of advice about making the most of the money you have. It covers retirement plans too.

/edit, just read that UK\Ireland support has been stopped for quicken. You could perhaps pickup an older copy from ebay or try other finance software. It really is worth it though.

haz

The Motley Fool has a discussion board on "Living below your means" at http://boards.fool.co.uk/Messages.asp?bid=50074 which is full of tips on financial survival.

Average weekly earnings of people in employment in Ireland seems to be about 650 euro, or annually 34,000 euro. http://www.cso.ie/statistics/earnings.htm

grellan1

Thanks to you all for replying - but nobody has answered as to the average wage?:)
I will check out the living below your means site (lovely title).
Another good website I have just found is Downsizer.net - it has a very active forum on budgeting and 'making do' - all age groups contribute and gain from each others experiences and tips.
Sometimes it helps, no matter what your age, to share with all age groups.
All the best for now.
Grellan.

grellan1

Sorry Haz, didn't see your figure on average wage - crikey am I shocked! I thought it was a lot lower than that - on our income (under 20K) no wonder we are struggling - Downsizer.net and Motley Fool are becoming more important by the hour.....
This is a challenge - and one I am having to take up hopefully along with some of the others who have posted about struggling financially.

Grellan.

haz

grellan1 wrote:

I thought it was a lot lower than that - on our income (under 20K) no wonder we are struggling

I was dissapointed by how little information I found on earner and household incomes yesterday, but I found the Conference of Religious in Ireland has a decent page on growing income inequality at http://www.cori.ie/justice/soc_issues/spec_issues/inc_dist.htm

The most relevant figure is "In 2004 the average household disposable income was €740.61 a week", in other words 38,500 per year. But a half of all households have a disposeable income of 550 or less per week or 28,000 or less per year. Forty per cent of households have disposeable income of 22,000 or less per year. The household figure is for co-dwellers whether employed, unemployed or in receipt of benefits.

gerky

Try living on disability 165.80 a week a disabled has more expenses than a healthy person not less, if your sick or disabled in this country the second richest country in the world your well and truly ######

haz

angel2 wrote:

Try living on disability 165.80 a week a disabled has more expenses than a healthy person not less, if your sick or disabled in this country the second richest country in the world your well and truly ######

It is pin-money. Anyone contributing the maximum 200 euro per month to an SSIA is receiving, absolutely free and in recognition of their existing wealth, a further 50 euro of tax-payers' money, including taxes deducted from people on benefit. That is 7 1/2 per cent of disability benefit, just for having money in the first place.

The problem isn't wealth, it is that the increasing difference between high and low incomes is creating "relative poverty" - for instance the presence of wealth eliminates affordable eating places, affordable entertainment and public spaces.

Sonnenblumen

haz wrote:

It is pin-money. Anyone contributing the maximum 200 euro per month to an SSIA is receiving, absolutely free and in recognition of their existing wealth, a further 50 euro of tax-payers' money, including taxes deducted from people on benefit. That is 7 1/2 per cent of disability benefit, just for having money in the first place.

The problem isn't wealth, it is that the increasing difference between high and low incomes is creating "relative poverty" - for instance the presence of wealth eliminates affordable eating places, affordable entertainment and public spaces.

All sounds very confusing, eg how does wider choice price points ( be it goods, services or restaurants) as you suggest create "relative poverty". If a rising tide helps all boats then perhaps thos with holes will disappear. In fact IMO rising wealth has been a great boost to enhanced public spaces, I'm not convinced by your arguments that the fact there is more wealth, there is therefore more poverty. SSIAs were available to ALL taxpayers, and if one decides to save regularly and someone else sits around on welfare, well you're on a loser there.

Fundamentally, one adjusts lifestyle to suit preference and budget, with the latter the doominant factor for most. However if you want a better lifestyle well for most it means earning/working more.

hmmm

This "relative property" nonsense is just the old class warfare stuff recycled. Just because someone can't afford to go skiing at Christmas when their neighbours can does not mean they live in poverty, and distracts us from the real poverty that certain parts of our society are enduring e.g. old people on pensions who can't afford the gas bill, recently unemployed 50 year olds, some immigrants.

Unfortunately we have a bubble economy with massive amounts of our population borrowing to subsidise their lifestyle, which in turn is driving up prices. We also have a government sector which is not being forced to exist in the real world and are foisting huge price increases on people who have no choice but to pay them (CIE are looking for 10% increase, no competition to the ESB, local refuse charges).

The average industrial wage is around 30k a year. Considering the average house price in Dublin is now 400k, there's an obvious "scratch your head what's wrong here" moment. The only reason why everyone in the country is not like the original poster is credit - we are living far beyond our means and borrowing to subsidise our day to day lifestyle which is madness. Our debt to national income ratio is now the highest in the OECD, crazy stuff. It's like the whole country has got their first credit card and thinks it is free money.

This credit supply will someday come to a halt and will have to be paid off. I assume that would be trigger for a downturn in property values, investment and the economy in general. Assuming that will have a deflationary impact, it will be bad for most people, but good for those on fixed incomes. When it will happen is a different matter.

gerky

Sonnenblumen wrote:

All sounds very confusing, eg how does wider choice price points ( be it goods, services or restaurants) as you suggest create "relative poverty". If a rising tide helps all boats then perhaps thos with holes will disappear. In fact IMO rising wealth has been a great boost to enhanced public spaces, I'm not convinced by your arguments that the fact there is more wealth, there is therefore more poverty. SSIAs were available to ALL taxpayers, and if one decides to save regularly and someone else sits around on welfare, well you're on a loser there.

Fundamentally, one adjusts lifestyle to suit preference and budget, with the latter the doominant factor for most. However if you want a better lifestyle well for most it means earning/working more.

How arrogant are you some people don't have a choice and cant work how exactly can you save on 165 a week you cant exactly adjust to being not disabled and being able to work and although the old age pension is terrible and in no way enough its still better than disability allowance

haz

I stated the relative poverty in a very specific sense, not the sense of envy, giving two examples. There have been immense changes in the local availability of affordable food because out-of-town shopping parks displace local business, because of the trend towards ready meals and other high-value, low nutrition foods. Open space has generally improved for those with a business to be there - shopping malls are private property in which non-customers are not free to sit as they were in the former streetscape. The price of medicines (aspirin in 12-pill blister packs is 400% more expensive than unbranded product), doctors' appointments, therapy, etc. I have 15 500mg Ponstan tablets here from a pharmacy in Greece at 1.50, the same brand is 500% more expnsive in a Celtic Tiger pharmacy. Prices rise to meet the willingness to pay.

Marcais

angel2 wrote:

How arrogant are you some people don't have a choice and cant work how exactly can you save on 165 a week you cant exactly adjust to being not disabled and being able to work and although the old age pension is terrible and in no way enough its still better than disability allowance

The type of arrogant view unfortunately also held by our fat cat politicians, who of course recently got a 10% increase in their "disability"...now if you want to talk about spongers, look at the public "service" employees, council workers etc., and who can blame them for taking advantage of a system which allows them to do so.

eth0_

Do you think you people could get back on topic?

Thanks.

maireadmarie

Out of curiousity, Marcais, why do you consider public service employees such as county council workers 'spongers'?

haz

eth0_ wrote:

Do you think you people could get back on topic?

In addition to the excellent (and very active) money forums at The Motley Fool, there is useful material at:

Comhairle: http://www.comhairle.ie/providers/providers_mabs_training_and_community_education_service.html

The Money And Budgeting Advisory Service: http://www.mabs.ie/

MABS will provide very useful advice on refinancing loans, getting credit and legal rights on debts.

grellan1

Being disabled (which I am) in modern Ireland, given the choice I would have been out working for the last 10 years, but having a disability put paid to that option.

I now have to pay 85 euro a month for medicines, not being in the income tax bracket and THEN having to pay DIRT at 20% on my small savings which is non-refundable, no chance of a medical card etc etc.
Yes the disabled are having a ball in this great tiger economy of ours.
Grellan

bmaxi

grellan1 wrote:

Being disabled (which I am) in modern Ireland, given the choice I would have been out working for the last 10 years, but having a disability put paid to that option.

I now have to pay 85 euro a month for medicines, not being in the income tax bracket and THEN having to pay DIRT at 20% on my small savings which is non-refundable, no chance of a medical card etc etc.
Yes the disabled are having a ball in this great tiger economy of ours.
Grellan

Grellan, have you other income or do you live with relatives? I'm pretty sure anyone receiving Social welfare payments is entitled to a Medical card but it would depend on the income of the household, check with your local Community welfare officer, worth a try.

haz

bmaxi wrote:

anyone receiving Social welfare payments is entitled to a Medical card

The rules are described here: http://www.oasis.gov.ie/health/health_services_in_ireland/medical_card.html
and http://www.healthhub.ie/index.cfm/loc/2-2/articleId/752DBC2B-51A1-484F-A6F9FA0F0615ADB2.htm

I think the wording "Persons with no income other than" is unclear. I think that a spouse's or live-in partner's income is included. I don't think children's, parents or friends' income is included, even when sharing a home - and rent payments to relatives could qualify for support, when very carefully designed.

Many more people qualify for the Drugs Payment Scheme (DPS) card, which limits prescription payments to the 85 euro per month mentioned.

bmaxi

haz wrote:

The rules are described here: http://www.oasis.gov.ie/health/health_services_in_ireland/medical_card.html

. I don't think children's, parents or friends' income is included, even when sharing a home
.

I disagree, my sister and her husband, both O.A.P's are disqualified because of my nephew's income.

Hotblack Desiato

There is 'discretion' regarding the income limits where there is serious illness or a disability
Worth getting your local TD involved.

Mountjoy Mugger

According to the Central Statistics Office, the average industrial wage is €602.35 per week, based on a 40 hour week. (June 2006)

Source CSO: http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/indearn.pdf

I hope that's of some help, grellan1.

kleefarr

Mountjoy Mugger wrote:

According to the Central Statistics Office, the average industrial wage is €602.35 per week, based on a 40 hour week. (June 2006)

I wonder, would that include the high six figure sums of Directors and Chairmens salaries who run these industrial enterprises? My guess is it probably does which therefore would not return a very realistic WORKERS average wage.

haz

kleefarr wrote:

I wonder, would that include the high six figure sums of Directors and Chairmens salaries who run these industrial enterprises? My guess is it probably does which therefore would not return a very realistic WORKERS average wage.

Yes, it is the mean average, i.e. all wages divided by all earners as if everyone earned the same. According to the table given in http://www.cori.ie/justice/soc_issues/spec_issues/inc_dist.htm quoted above:

The top tenth earn 2,010 per week (104,909 per year) and the bottom tenth earn 155 per week (8,111 per year). A half earn 550 per week or less which is the median average, somewhat less than the mean average.

Inequality has consistently increased in Ireland with rising prosperity (e.g. the GINI index, http://www.forfas.ie/ncc/reports/ncc_annual_05/ch02/ch02_01.html).

gerrycollins

i agree with all of you here that we live in a world today where the cost of living far exceeds or means.

I had to give up drink as its a non essential part of my life, my mortage is going through the roof, work is getting further away so travel time/petrol has its own costs fincially and personally.

Im on a good enough salary and my wife works(when maternity over) and here mother is near to look after baby for us so we are not too bad but looking at it is it worth it?

i mean who are we working for the banks and big businesses basically, like was said earlier credit is free thankfully im not in too bad of a situation, mortage and a small credit card bill, but i would sell up the house tomorrow pay off my debts and do something for me not for someone else

haz

So Minister McDowell has had his evil way with poor Mr Cowen and there is to be a reduction in the higher rate of tax to 41%, costing 230 million euro per year - i.e. costing twice as much as the 15 euro per week increase in the pension, but still only half what the PDs asked for.

wiggzie

haz wrote:

So Minister McDowell has had his evil way with poor Mr Cowen and there is to be a reduction in the higher rate of tax to 41%, costing 230 million euro per year - i.e. costing twice as much as the 15 euro per week increase in the pension, but still only half what the PDs asked for.

1. The cut in higher rate of income tax was a fundamental promise for the last election compaign, so delivering what they promised, about time.
2. The government shouldn't be taking money from taxpayers that it doens't need. Currently running massive surplus for this year - this is tax that it should NEVER have taken and is right that the people who paid it should pay less subsequently.
3. They should be taking as little as possible from taxpayers - it's not a governments right to overtax its populace and then blow what it gets. It should take the minumum required to meet it's needs.

As a taxpayer, what do I get from the taxes I pay? I don't see much benefit, so I'd much rather pay less.

RainyDay

wiggzie wrote:

As a taxpayer, what do I get from the taxes I pay? I don't see much benefit, so I'd much rather pay less.

Most people seem to think differently - See http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/1202/1164823860027.html

The overwhelming majority of voters want Brian Cowen to give top priority in next Wednesday's budget to putting more money into public services such as health and education rather than income tax cuts, according to The Irish Times /TNS mrbi poll.

Asked to rate five budgetary options in order of priority, 51 per cent opted for extra spending on health and education as the number one choice on the basis that Mr Cowen would have about €2 billion to give away in the upcoming budget. The next highest priority, with 16 per cent support, was cutting stamp duty to help first-time house buyers.

haz

wiggzie wrote:

The cut in higher rate of income tax was a fundamental promise for the last election compaign, so delivering what they promised, about time.

They also promised to provide effective A&E, no overnight stays on hospital trolleys, adequate nursing staff levels, reduced waiting lists, paediatric care, community psychiatric supports, 24-hour rape crisis centres, juvenile psychiatric care, no children in adult prisons, ....

230 million would be better spent on any of these, speaking as having used some of these services.

hmmm

Government budgets should be automatically cut by 5% every year until we get to a stage where we are getting value for money. I'd rather that 230 million in my pocket rather than wasted on another ripoff round of benchmarking.

MOH

RainyDay wrote:

Most people seem to think differently - See http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2006/1202/1164823860027.html

Yes, of course most people would rather the money went into proper public services/infrastructure, but it's not going to. Hasn't in the past, why start now. So I'd rather have the 1% cut.

haz

hmmm wrote:

Government budgets should be automatically cut by 5% every year until we get to a stage where we are getting value for money. I'd rather that 230 million in my pocket rather than wasted on another ripoff round of benchmarking.

And you are happy to have the savings for, or pay the overhead on insurance for, the unfortunate possibility of a debilitating car accident? Or the probability of incapacitating dementia (30%), visual impairment (11%), motor impairment preventing dressing / feeding / personal hygiene (4%) - or of having to pay fulltime nursing care (50,000+ euro per annum) to live in your own home in old age? With private care costing at least 15% more than public care, insurance creaming off a minimum 5% (BUPA) to 10% (the other fully private insurers) and consultants employing less experienced juniors at their own rates (and pocketing the difference). That is assuming you don't have the two years out of work on a failed hip, spending your hard earned savings whilst on the waiting list.

Public hospitals can deliver the most efficient services. They don't. Ireland's public services are some of the least efficient, with some of the most self-interested over-employment from unions to consultants. Starving the services of resources will not improve them. Transparent accounting will.