Sunday Tribune in decline

Dundalk Daily

With further redundancies in the last few weeks at the Tribune, the talk within the industry is that the Indo may finally let the Tribune go under. The Independent which controls the paper with Michael Roche at the helm (former group editor of the Indo), has been throwing massive amounts of funds to keep the Trib afloat for the last few years.

The quality of the reporting seems to have slumped since the current editor took over. Does anyone else have an opinion on this great paper and Irish household name.

jmcc

Was once a good newspaper but when it couldn't hold on to the good journos, it started to slide. The business section used to be quite good and it still is in places. Though why they gave the business editor job to Richard Develan (who was formerly an op-ed columnist in its main section) is confusing. The Sunday Business Post has, I think, taken most of the business reader demographic as the Trib's business section shrank over the years. As a paper, its target demographic has too much choice (Sunday Times, Sindo etc) and it is now just the Sindo with some good journalism added. If the Trib starts to eat into the Sindo's market, I think that the plug will be pulled.

Good journalism costs money and opinion is cheap. When the balance between good journalism and opinion tilts in favour of opinion, a publication ceases to be a newspaper.

Regards...jmcc

flogen

Dundalk Daily wrote:

Does anyone else have an opinion on this great paper and Irish household name.

I was unaware of any recent Tribune redundancies; have you got a link to any stories on this? And perhaps you can expand on your opinion, other than saying the quality seems to have slumped.

Tom Dunne

I used to buy the Tribune and the Sunday Business Post, but I just can't stand the Tribune any more.

I really think that the Tribune has slid down into Sunday World territory with is tabloid headlines and hollow reporting. An increasing percentage of the stories are sleaze and hype. I haven't bought it since the early summer, so I can't give specifics, it's just my general perception.

Dundalk Daily

I agree Tom the product has def slumped, the aim of the Indo group when they took over the Tribune several years ago was to keep the Sunday Times at bay. They believed that if the Trib were to go the readers would move onto the Sunday Times which in turn would cause problems for the Sindo. The Competition Authority actually ruled against the Indo group buying the Tribune but this didnt stop them going in the back door. The business section was let slip for the simple reason that it wasnt taking in the advertising revenue, the property section was and so this was expanded slightly. The Indo`s aim of getting the Tribune to act as a buffer zone between the Sindo and the Sunday Times in my opinion has failed and they have turned the Trib into the Sindo part 2.

Dundalk Daily

"I was unaware of any recent Tribune redundancies; have you got a link to any stories on this?" Flogen as I have worked there for several years and continue to do some freelance Im in touch with friends in the Tribune on a daily basis. It was they who have informed me of the latest redundancies and cutbacks.

flogen

Dundalk Daily wrote:

I agree Tom the product has def slumped, the aim of the Indo group when they took over the Tribune several years ago was to keep the Sunday Times at bay. They believed that if the Trib were to go the readers would move onto the Sunday Times which in turn would cause problems for the Sindo. The Competition Authority actually ruled against the Indo group buying the Tribune but this didnt stop them going in the back door. The business section was let slip for the simple reason that it wasnt taking in the advertising revenue, the property section was and so this was expanded slightly. The Indo`s aim of getting the Tribune to act as a buffer zone between the Sindo and the Sunday Times in my opinion has failed and they have turned the Trib into the Sindo part 2.

I'm surprised this hasn't been reported at all in the media. I must speak to my friend in there to see what he's heard; you must point me in the direction of some of your work too, am always interested to see what other journalists on boards.ie are doing.

As far as I was aware the idea behind buying the Trib was more to block the Irish Times from buying into the sunday market than anything else; although it's fair to say O'Reilly generally wanted to keep all competition at bay (as someone was going to have to buy the Tribune, perhaps even Murdoch).
I would be surprised, however, to see them sell it off now, or even die; either way it leaves some wriggle room for others to set foot into the sunday market that O'Reilly has tied up otherwise.
I'd imagine they're just going to get serious on turning a profit, which means cutting costs and pandering to the LCD more and more.

I think the Trib is in a difficult place though; it's on the right of centre, although not as right-wing as the Sunday Independent; it seems to have marketed itself more as a working class newspaper than its sister.

Dundalk Daily

Yes talk to your friend, the last batch of redundancies included Indo group veteran Paddy Murray. Several junior hacks were even offered commercial features and refused to do it. The latest ABCs if Im not mistaking showed a slight increase in sales although this would be down to the marketing of Ross OCarroll Kelly. Print quality was also another v serious issue when the Trib moved from Belfast to the midlands but this issue seems to have been sorted.

Someone else above mentioned surprise at the recent appointment of a new Business editor. The removal of Paul OKane was again purely financial with his successor being paid alot less as was the departure of the production manager Paul Howe again the purely down to cost cutting. Howes replacement previously worked part time designing ads for the Trib, no one else there wanted the job and so with 3 years part time experience she got the job. Cut the costs forget the quality.

flogen

Dundalk Daily wrote:

Yes talk to your friend, the last batch of redundancies included Indo group veteran Paddy Murray. Several junior hacks were even offered commercial features and refused to do it. The latest ABCs if Im not mistaking showed a slight increase in sales although this would be down to the marketing of Ross OCarroll Kelly. Print quality was also another v serious issue when the Trib moved from Belfast to the midlands but this issue seems to have been sorted.

Well yes; I remember writing a while ago on the whole Ross O'Carroll Kelly thing; their big advertising campaign highlighting the weekly column and nothing else... as I said then, I really felt sorry for the journalists, good writers or not, that their contribution was considered secondary to a midly satirical text-based cartoon

Tom Dunne

flogen wrote:

I really felt sorry for the journalists, good writers or not, that their contribution was considered secondary to a midly satirical text-based cartoon

I think this is a sad reflection of the media in general - the continual "dumbing down" in the race to the bottom. It is obvious that the powers that be in the Tribune see this as the only way to increase circulation.

mike65

I buy the Turbine in preference to the Sindo as when I abandoned that ship it was proberly at its most trashy. I had noticed the increasee in "low-grade" front stories. Paddy Murray was doing a decent job following Matt Cooper I thought. I see the current ed was on the Evening Herald so its direction should'nt be a suprise I guess.

Mike.

Dundalk Daily

It beggars belief why those in the overall Indo group lean towards this tabloid style rubbish like we are seeing more and more in the Sindo, Herald and Trib. Is the growing popularity of some of these newspapers a reflection of our society.

jdivision

Dundalk Daily is correct regarding the Sindo investing to keep out the Sunday Times. I stopped buying the Sunday Trib when Murray took over, thought he was appalling. They've gone in a new direction now and while I read the newspaper (I don't buy it) I didn't think much of it. They are targeting a female audience and also an audience interested in crime but in the crime area they certainly don't have the experienced journos to do it. Rumours the Trib is going have been circulating for last four years in particular - can't see it happening yet. I think it'll be six months before they'll even look at it again - they'll have to see if new figures will boost advertising revenue - personally I don't think so. BTW Property section didn't get anybody new as far as I know, merely a new editor appointed with former one becoming features editor. However, they're not getting much revenue from the section afaik and it's the section that pays the bills in domestic newspapers.

DMC

Really, when did the Tribune ever have a golden age, or a time when its future wasn't in doubt? Since I was a lad, the Tribune always had money/editorial/ownership issues. I see nothing new in this thread to convince me that the paper is finally in grave danger.

Dundalk Daily

DMC I am looking for peoples opinions of this one time great newspaper.

Jdivision the property section is the ony part of the advertising that has remained successful for the last number of years. Neither the agency or direct advertising have been consistent in attracting good revenue. This has probably been due to the fact that all their successful advertising reps have left, many joining Setanta TV, simply because the management wouldnt improve conditions.

DMC

Dundalk Daily wrote:

DMC I am looking for peoples opinions of this one time great newspaper.

Odd, because I did ask "when did the Tribune ever have a golden age"? I'm arguing that the paper, in my eyes, never had any great draw. You come here pontificating that the paper is/was "great", I'm arguing that the paper never strove onto the next level.

Its seems journos consider it worthy, but the ABC's show different and very mixed results, for a lot of its existance.

DublinWriter

jmcc wrote:

Good journalism costs money and opinion is cheap. When the balance between good journalism and opinion tilts in favour of opinion, a publication ceases to be a newspaper.

... and becomes toiletpaper.

Great quote...is it yours?

I think the Tribune is dead in the water. I'll be surprised if it's still around in six months time.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that the SBP has gone seriously stale since the Thomas Crosbie Group took them over? I haven't checked their sales figures in recent times.

Dundalk Daily

Yes i agree that the SBP has gone stale but as it is v niche theres not alot of things going to change in it. They do an excellent job of getting the entire business community on board for editorial and this pays off when it comes to advertising. They had a good journalist in Barry OKelly and let him go.

Propellerhead

I've taken the Tribune for years, not out of any great grá for it but because there is no other Irish Sunday catering for the (probably diminishing) sub group of Garret FitzGerald liberals. I certainly don't rate some of the hacks on it, particularly Shane Coleman, Richard Delevan or the absolutely tiresome and one-joke Ross O'Carroll-O'Kelly.

If the Trib folded I wouldn't take any other Irish Sunday. Not the SBP - too much FF and SF hackery for my liking. Not the Sindo - smartarsey and self-important columnists who lacerate anyone who doesn't live down to their standands. That leaves the Sunday World, and I definitely don't count the Oirish Mail on Sunday as anything worth using above the level of a bird cage liner.

The one glaring ommission from the vast acreage of newsprint on Sunday is of course The Irish Times on Sunday. That would kill the Trib stone dead if it ever appeared and the real home for much of the Trib's readership IMHO. Irish sunday newspaper readers don't fall neatly into the SBP box (builders on the make and those who can barely conceal their contempt for Northern Unionists) or the Sindo (air headed socialites and deefers looking for robust commentators to stop them feeling guilty).

flogen

Dundalk Daily wrote:

DMC I am looking for peoples opinions of this one time great newspaper.

DMC gave you an opinion, if it doesn't fit with your own you're going to have to deal with it.

flogen

Propellerhead wrote:

The one glaring ommission from the vast acreage of newsprint on Sunday is of course The Irish Times on Sunday. That would kill the Trib stone dead if it ever appeared and the real home for much of the Trib's readership IMHO. Irish sunday newspaper readers don't fall neatly into the SBP box (builders on the make and those who can barely conceal their contempt for Northern Unionists) or the Sindo (air headed socialites and deefers looking for robust commentators to stop them feeling guilty).

Someone said to me (and this is probably through a very fractured grapevine) that the IT made a bid for the SBP a year or so ago and despite the SBP making a loss, TCH rejected the offer, simply because they want to have a presence on the Sunday market.
The IT were also interested in the Trib before IN&M made their move but I'd be surprised to see them launch their own Sunday rather than gobble up an existing one, especially at this stage as they're still feeling the pinch from a very difficult period.
I'd say they'd probably wait for an existing paper to drop off before they moved in, but then again they have all the facilities they need bar the editorial and sub staff (ie ad team and printing facilities)... I just can't see it happen for the time being.

mikelmessi

Travel and books editor have gone as well. Paddy Murray was still there as some kind of editorial consultant until recently, while still drawing an editor's wage as far as I have been told. I have heard that the aper is now breaking even operationally, one of the reasons was the change of printer.
Ross O'Caroll Kelly is a cash monster for the Tribune. If Paul Howard ever stopped doing it I think the paper would have to fold.

mikelmessi

Oh and about ten years ago, the Times were strongly considering going into the Sunday market, they even had dummy copies printed but lost their nerve.

Dundalk Daily

"DMC gave you an opinion, if it doesn't fit with your own you're going to have to deal with it."

Flogen why oh why are you having a go at me about this, all I simply did was point out why I started the thread and that was clearly to get an opinion about the Tribune. As the moderator Im sure you will agree others posting should stick to the original thread as much as possible. If subsequent posts wondered off in a different direction there is the possibility that you would lock the thread like in the Paul Williams thread.

I have no problem whatsoever with other opinions quite the opposite.

DMC

Point out to me where I wandered off topic.

monument

DD - I think the questing that they want answered is 'exactly when did the Tribune have a golden age?'

Dundalk Daily

OK maybe it never had a golden age but things must have been going ok when daily Tribune was launched. But my original thread was just looking for peoples opinions on the publication.

Nightwish

I bought the Tribune religiously, for over 5 years, when Matt Cooper was the editor. They had great articles and pretty good coverage of the weeks events, especially regarding politics. However when the newspaper changed about 2 years ago, with its separate paper for every single section, it became dumb and trashy. I found it was actually worse than the Sindo (which I never thought possible for a broadsheet). I havent bought it since last January, and I hear that many others have abandoned it also, of late, so it doesnt surprise me to hear of its demise.

jmcc

DublinWriter wrote:

Great quote...is it yours?

Yep. I don't know what happened - I went all literary for a moment. Though I could have had a flashback to the whole dot.bomb thing and Irish technology journalism.

I think the Tribune is dead in the water. I'll be surprised if it's still around in six months time.

Well the rumour last year was that it had until Christmas 2005 to see if it could stop the losses. The six month window looks a bit optimistic now. However O'Reilly may still need the Trib to provide added competition for those other Sundays in the Irish market.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

mike65 wrote:

I buy the Turbine in preference to the Sindo as when I abandoned that ship it was proberly at its most trashy. I had noticed the increasee in "low-grade" front stories. Paddy Murray was doing a decent job following Matt Cooper I thought. I see the current ed was on the Evening Herald so its direction should'nt be a suprise I guess.

Matt Cooper was doing a very good job. Paddy Murray took the paper way down market and made a mess of it. Perhaps that is where the rot set in because the Trib's demographic were not Sunday World readers.

Regards...jmcc

Dundalk Daily

I agree with earlier post I think the Ross OCarroll Kelly is def spun out at this stage.

lostexpectation

jmcc wrote:

Good journalism costs money and opinion is cheap. When the balance between good journalism and opinion tilts in favour of opinion, a publication ceases to be a newspaper.

exactly, that could be said for al papers but now people like matt cooper are going that way...

Dundalk Daily

Lostexpection do you think Matt Cooper has lost some of his shine ?

RainyDay

Nightwish wrote:

I bought the Tribune religiously, for over 5 years, when Matt Cooper was the editor. They had great articles and pretty good coverage of the weeks events, especially regarding politics. However when the newspaper changed about 2 years ago, with its separate paper for every single section, it became dumb and trashy. I found it was actually worse than the Sindo (which I never thought possible for a broadsheet). I havent bought it since last January, and I hear that many others have abandoned it also, of late, so it doesnt surprise me to hear of its demise.

Snap - My thoughts exactly.

flogen

Dundalk Daily wrote:

"DMC gave you an opinion, if it doesn't fit with your own you're going to have to deal with it."

Flogen why oh why are you having a go at me about this, all I simply did was point out why I started the thread and that was clearly to get an opinion about the Tribune. As the moderator Im sure you will agree others posting should stick to the original thread as much as possible. If subsequent posts wondered off in a different direction there is the possibility that you would lock the thread like in the Paul Williams thread.

I have no problem whatsoever with other opinions quite the opposite.

The irony here being that you are now taking this thread off topic; DMC gave an opinion in the form of a question; obviously he doesn't believe it was ever a great paper and as such there can be no real decline.
Don't take it so personally, but when someone gives an opinion in the form of a question (that was obviously in response to your original comments) it might be an idea to respond to them rather than get defensive.

So let's stay on the topic of the Tribune, and nothing else, eh?

Dundalk Daily

Flo I totally agree.

Tom Dunne

Dundalk Daily wrote:

Lostexpection do you think Matt Cooper has lost some of his shine ?

I do. Without wanting to stray off topic, he was fine at the Tribune - I bought the paper under his leadership, but I can't stand him on the radio. He is too provocative, he actively asks questions that he hopes will provoke a reaction out of his guests.

lostexpectation

Dundalk Daily wrote:

Lostexpection do you think Matt Cooper has lost some of his shine ?

I only heard of him last year when I heard him dog some politicans but I realise he just creates grudges rather then reports

DMC

lostexpectation wrote:

I heard him dog some politicans

Not in the Stan Collymore sense, shurely!

Xavi6

I've done a bit of freelance work for the Tribune and didn't know things had gotten that bad. Maybe that's why they haven't called in a while.....!!