Hand from westwood 100e double chance

Lissavalley

8 players on table. blinds 200/400.

Average stack about 8500. I have 7500.

Folded round to me. I am 1 of the cutoff.

I get dealt AA. Raise to 1500.

Player to my left pushes for 1200.

Both blinds call. Both have me covered

Flop comes jj2 rainbow. checked to me.

Any takers??

5starpool

You are not getting away from it, shove and be done. If someone has a J and calls then so be it.

phantom_lord

Pot it!

Hitman Actual

For the sake of argument*, I say why bother betting? Hope that one of the blinds improves to a good 2nd best hand on the turn (assuming you're not already in big trouble), and gives you some money. If you push here, you're only getting called by a jack. And you can be almost certain that if a player in the blinds has a jack here, they will check this flop.

* i.e. I'm bored.

DeadParrot

what do you do on the turn then Len?
I understand the idea of checking it down, but surely you cant give them any chance to improve

5starpool

lenny_leonard wrote:

For the sake of argument*, I say why bother betting? Hope that one of the blinds improves to a good 2nd best hand on the turn (assuming you're not already in big trouble), and gives you some money. If you push here, you're only getting called by a jack. And you can be almost certain that if a player in the blinds has a jack here, they will check this flop.

* i.e. I'm bored.

I was thinking that too but then I couldn't be arsed articulating it so decided to not say it. The pair on board does help protect against a random 2 pair, but still.

Gholimoli

dont like pushing here at all.
you can check behind,and see what others will do on the turn and take it from there.

Ste05

Ye, I just check, there are no draws whatsoever, we are drawing to 2 outs if called, whereas someone might get frisky with a smaller 2 pair, improve to a weaker 2 pair or attempt some sort of a bluff on the turn, but either way there is certainly no getting away from the hand.

The usual gap concept in action. A weaker hand *might* bet but it certainly won't call.

Hitman Actual

DeadParrot wrote:

what do you do on the turn then Len?
I understand the idea of checking it down, but surely you cant give them any chance to improve

Well, I suppose the danger is that one of the blinds has a pair and improves to a set, but that's a small likelyhood now. I'd be hoping that one of the blinds pairs a K or Q and thinks it's good enough to beat the all-in, so bet's out, and you pick up an extra bet where you wouldn't if you pushed the flop. If you'd decided you were going broke anyway (couldn't get away from your AA), you might as well do it on the turn with a better chance of picking up some money when ahead. Or if you think someone actually does have a jack, you can get away from it on the turn.

Edit: when I say improves to a set, I obviously mean to a house. But I never really think about the board much in comparison to my hand, just about how my hand compares to other players.

ollyk1

lenny_leonard wrote:

If you push here, you're only getting called by a jack. [/SIZE]

Not true. You definitely get called by QQ and KK too!!

Plus maybe even TT - 88 depending on the players. :rolleyes:


I've even seen guys with overs grumble and call here because they think with two jacks out there you won't have one.

Are we going to check this all the way to the river now?? What do we do if there is a big bet on the end? Any size bet at the end is going to look suspicious and we may have to laydown the best hand.

I think I bet 2k. Betting here and getting the blinds to fold might add 10-15% to the chances of you winning the pot so its not like the bet achieves nothing. If someone calls obviously we have to be very careful but they might call one bet on the flop hoping to slow you down because their hand has showdown value when in fact you have them in terrible shape. I fold to the reraise obviously.

I hate a push here. See it happen all the time though makes me laugh very hard.

Gholimoli

if we are ahead villains are drawing to two outs.
if we are behind we are drawing to two outs.

with JJ being on bored we dont have to fear hands like two pair and the bored is drawless.
check calling here is best.
its true we may lose some value some times from hands such as QQ,KK(not likely as we would have seen a reraise preflop prob) but that is some what compensated but but we save when some 1 has a J and TT,QQ hands having ago at the pot.
you can be confidnet that any one with out a J would almost never have ago at the pot more than once and with your holding you can call one bet on one street .

Hitman Actual

ollyk1 wrote:

Not true. You definitely get called by QQ and KK too!!

Plus maybe even TT - 88 depending on the players. :rolleyes:

Noted! But my thinking is that you're up against two marginal hands in the blinds which were priced in to call (whether they knew it or not... it is the Westwood after all). And you'd expect QQ/KK to raise, as gholi mentioned, and maybe even 88-TT to isolate the all-in.

I dont think betting is bad as such, and because there's an all-in, you can expect the blinds to get out of the way if they have nothing i.e. they wont try to get tricky without a jack as the hand is going to show-down anyway.

Ollieboy

I agree with Ollie here, we have to find out now if our hand is still any good, so a small bet between 1500/2000 would be my option, if it gets called, check the turn and revaluate on the river. Also, the player all in might have the J and we than need to get paid by the two other players to break even on this hand.

Feeler bet and hopefully the blinds go away and your heads up for the 6k in the middle.

It also depends on the two players in the blinds, do they like to defend there blinds etc, do they call for value and are they calling stations etc, if so we have to bet here to get them out of the hand.

Hitman Actual

Ollieboy wrote:

It also depends on the two players in the blinds, do they like to defend there blinds etc, do they call for value and are they calling stations etc, if so we have to bet here to get them out of the hand.

Why do we want them out of the hand? They're either a mile behind or a mile ahead, and if they're ahead they're not going anywhere. But if they're behind, they may catch up enough to put more money in later on.

Gholimoli

Ollieboy wrote:

I agree with Ollie here, we have to find out now if our hand is still any good, so a small bet between 1500/2000 would be my option, if it gets called, check the turn and revaluate on the river. Also, the player all in might have the J and we than need to get paid by the two other players to break even on this hand.

Feeler bet and hopefully the blinds go away and your heads up for the 6k in the middle.

It also depends on the two players in the blinds, do they like to defend there blinds etc, do they call for value and are they calling stations etc, if so we have to bet here to get them out of the hand.

the problem with this is if you bet that much there is no revaluating, the pot is so big that you can’t possibly get away from it.

“It also depends on the two players in the blinds, do they like to defend there blinds etc, do they call for value and are they calling stations etc, if so we have to bet here to get them out of the hand.”

Why would you want them out of the hand. if they have a PP they are drawing to two outs. if they have unpaired hands then need to catch a runner runner on one of their cards to win.
To be honest the stacks in this hand are shallow enough so your really not making much mistakes no matter what you do but checking the hand allows you to lose less if some1 has the J while also allowing you to call a bluff.

Ollieboy

lenny_leonard wrote:

Why do we want them out of the hand? They're either a mile behind or a mile ahead, and if they're ahead they're not going anywhere. But if they're behind, they may catch up enough to put more money in later on.

They didnt call the raise without a hand, but we cant be sure of this given the general standard of poker out there. if the 10 comes or a flush draw they will have outs and the pot is currently big enough for us to take down, if were behind, we rather find out now rather than having to call a bigger bet on the river. If they hit on the turn, they might push allin and we can't call that either, so in a ideal world, we check it down and win, but I know there's no way Gholi would check this pot down, so I'm firing now and if I get check raised I'll drop it, if not, I'm ahead and hopefully the all in player doesn't have a J and I take down a nice pot.

If either of the blinds have a J, there going to fire at this pot on the turn and the river, so were going to pay either way, at least if you fire now, your been more aggressive, representing the J and also if they flat call or raise we can get away from the hand.

Say one of the blinds have a pp and he thinks he's ahead after the river and push allin, what do we do, we fold the best hand. I remember someone else posting a similiar hand this week and he laydown AA with a pair Q on the board to a all in on the river. Which seem to be a steal to me.

Ollieboy

Gholimoli wrote:

the problem with this is if you bet that much there is no revaluating, the pot is so big that you can’t possibly get away from it.

“It also depends on the two players in the blinds, do they like to defend there blinds etc, do they call for value and are they calling stations etc, if so we have to bet here to get them out of the hand.”

Why would you want them out of the hand. if they have a PP they are drawing to two outs. if they have unpaired hands then need to catch a runner runner on one of their cards to win.
To be honest the stacks in this hand are shallow enough so your really not making much mistakes no matter what you do but checking the hand allows you to lose less if some1 has the J while also allowing you to call a bluff.

Mate, you are you trying to kid, I know there's no way in the world you are going to check this hand down with the worst hand, you'll fire at it on the turn whatever hand you have or someone else has if you see weakness, you know it and I know it. lol

Hitman Actual

Ollie, the fact that there's an all-in changes the dynamic of the hand. If you bet here and get raised, then I agree you're more than likely behind to a jack, and can fold. When someone bets and there's an all-in, the bettor usually has a hand that can confront the all-in guy. Unless the other players are idiots, they get out of the way.

If we just check, though, we can get some money from someone who improves to a second-best hand, and decides that hand is good enough to take on the all-in. If someone bets on the turn, you can still call. If it's checked to you, you're still in the same position as on the flop, but you've given yourself the chance of extra value in the hand had someone bet, so it seems like a better line to me. But if someone shows serious strength at any stage in the hand, then, because of the all-in, you can assume they have a jack.

There seems to be a differing train of thought amongst players here about either closing down hands as quickly as possible in tournaments, or trying to get as much value out of the hand. I'm not sure which is best, tbh.

Gholimoli

Ollieboy wrote:

Mate, you are you trying to kid, I know there's no way in the world you are going to check this hand down with the worst hand, you'll fire at it on the turn whatever hand you have or someone else has if you see weakness, you know it and I know it. lol

Ollie,
Me betting with out a hand if I see weakness is a lot different than me turning my hand that has huge show down value in to a bluff!

You talk about representing the J there and all that…
Why would I want to represent the J there at all when I have almost all none J hands beat anyway and anyone with a J has me destroyed?

You are wrong about me betting on this flop, I promise you I would almost 100% check behind here on the flop.

On the turn it’s a different story and you can argue for a value bet depending on what others did on the turn (if the hand was checked around or not) but honestly I don’t think betting that flop is good poker.

Again you talk about betting to find out if you are behind sooner rather than later but you cant bet at this and getaway from it so while you may find out the information you are looking for but the information is of no use to you what so ever.

As I said there are not that many people at all that would fire multiple shots at that bored with a bluff so you can be pretty sure that if you are faced with bet from a player on two streets that your hand is no good.

Bandana boy

A reraise here is most certainly not always a jack
People do not know you have AA and on this flop i will often check raise/raise with postion what looks like AK continuation bet with 88 here you are imo pot committed and seing as a j will get all your chips in by the end anyway we should be doing what we think gets chips in the pot from the rest of the hands possibly in play.
I will mostly lead for 2 K and hope someone looks you up makes a move and then call
If there is a Gholi like player out there i might check to induce a bet

cardshark202

I check flop bet any turn and call all in/ check flop and call any bet on turn and get it all in on river/ bet flop and get it all in asap.
Its a tournament, 99% of players suck.

Ollieboy

Len And Gholi,

I dont mind checking this down and I agree with both of you about 1. there's no value in betting 2. letting someone else improve there hand, but the problem with both is, if someone improves, say 2 pairs K and J's, there going to push on the river and the money will end up going in anyway. The only hand we can lose to here is a J and if there's one out there, find out now before someone else gets aggressive and puts you to a decision or you have to call a large bet at the end anyway.

Checking it down would be fine, but I dont think thats going to happen 3 hand after the flop.

So a bet on the flop is fine, it gets rid of unpair hands and gives you information, no bet on the flop and you still dont have a clue where you are.

Ste05

Ollieboy wrote:

So a bet on the flop is fine, it gets rid of unpair hands and gives you information, no bet on the flop and you still dont have a clue where you are.

I'd be happy knowing exactly where I stand, I would never bet this flop "for information", we know we are either miles ahead or miles behind and unfortunately we're not deep enough to find out which it is. Any bet by us should commit us to the pot.

The reason why checking is better is because more hands that we are miles ahead of will possibly put more money in, whereas, very few, if any, hands that we're miles ahead of, will put money in if we bet.

I also don't want to get rid of unpaired hands as they're drawing to runner runner, I'm also willing to give free cards to paired hands because they're drawing to 2 outs, so basically I'm checking in order to allow people the opportunity to bet with a weaker hand or some donkish bluff, I'd also need a fairly good read to ever fold this here.

Ollieboy

Ste05 wrote:

I'd be happy knowing exactly where I stand, I would never bet this flop "for information", we know we are either miles ahead or miles behind and unfortunately we're not deep enough to find out which it is. Any bet by us should commit us to the pot.

The reason why checking is better is because more hands that we are miles ahead of will possibly put more money in, whereas, very few, if any, hands that we're miles ahead of, will put money in if we bet.

I also don't want to get rid of unpaired hands as they're drawing to runner runner, I'm also willing to give free cards to paired hands because they're drawing to 2 outs, so basically I'm checking in order to allow people the opportunity to bet with a weaker hand or some donkish bluff, I'd also need a fairly good read to ever fold this here.

Thats all fine and I dont have a problem with playing like that, but if a guy puts in a bluff at the end with his whole stack, you cant call and he might to that when he's holding a medium pp or a miss flush or straight draw. Thats the problem with checking the flop.

Ste05

Well I wouldn't have that problem because I'd call an All-In on the River, without a read saying otherwise, I think it's a donk bluff/ stupid value bet often enough to make it a profitable call.

RoundTower

check, get all in on turn against 55.

Lissavalley

K here goes. interesting to see the amount of different theories out there.

Anyway hand turns out as follows.

Checked to me as I said. I put in a bet of 3000 (should it have been less)

Immediatel the small blind moves all in, followed by the big blind.

Obvious now I am behind so i fold.

Small blind shows kj, big blind j9.

Incidentally the all in player to my left had 99.

Was left crippled after that hand and was out a few hands later.

Been thinking since my pre flop raise was bit small but almost certain dude with kj would still have called, perhaps even an all in by me.

Thanks for all thoughts and comments

Hitman Actual

Lissavalley wrote:

K here goes. interesting to see the amount of different theories out there.

Anyway hand turns out as follows.

Checked to me as I said. I put in a bet of 3000 (should it have been less)

Immediatel the small blind moves all in, followed by the big blind.

Obvious now I am behind so i fold.

Small blind shows kj, big blind j9.

Incidentally the all in player to my left had 99.

Was left crippled after that hand and was out a few hands later.

Been thinking since my pre flop raise was bit small but almost certain dude with kj would still have called, perhaps even an all in by me.

Thanks for all thoughts and comments

Preflop is fine.

You're right, the 3k flop bet is too much, it's half your stack. Bet 1.5k as suggested if betting is your line (don't want to get that started again!!). With the 3k bet you're definately committed if only one of the blinds check-raises AI; with 2 all-ins, despite the great odds you're getting now, I think someone almost certainly has a J so fold is right.

So, the flop bet is the only real mistake in the hand, but other than that it's just one of those hands.