Implications of new Gambling regulations

ollyk1

I'm fully aware that the casino licencing regulations haven't been announced yet and nobody knows exactly what the shape of the industry in five years time in Ireland will be. However there are some very interesting announcements being made by some serious financial players including Horse Racing Ireland and Paddy Power that have given me a few ideas about what may happen in the future.

I think an ongoing thread to suggest and comment on the evolution of legislation and industry announcements over the next six months could be very useful as there are a lot of people on this site with vested interests and of course poker players who may wish to see certain things happening to the gaming industry in Ireland.

HRI and Bord Na gCon have suggested they are very open to having gaming clubs/casinos at race tracks around the country and PP have talked about a bricks and Mortar casino to compliment their online offering.

What do you think will be the implications of this? With only a limted number of casino licences likely to emerge from the governement will some of the clubs around the country be forced to close as these ventures with more commercial muscle and better access to politicians enter the gaming economy??

Will PP buy an existing casino in Dublin?? (SE maybe??) Was this another Dermot Desmond masterstroke?? Should I be buying a slice of the Fitz because if existing players are granted licences will these become very valuable as the likes of the Curragh racecourse looks to get a licenece for a big onsite casino at some stage in the future??

Will the local poker player lose out if casinos are allowed slots and gaming at these out of town locations? Will there be less tournie choice in Dublin as a result??

I know I'm throwing out a lot of suqgestions but I just want to spark the debate as someone who has no commercial interest in what will happen (but who might seek to have in the future!) and as a plyer who is concerned that he'll still be able to walk to a casino in the city centre and find a half decent tournie or cash game to play in on a quiet evening.

kakak1

Will clubs that only cater for Poker come under the new regulations ??

If so will the regulations apply to all card clubs including Bridge clubs.
Card playing can be considered as recreation and not gambling, but the problem is when owners take a rake from each pot.
Again I think it is a different story if players are charged by the hour for the use of the facilities.
You can be sure big businesses are not going to lose out in this one whatever about the punters. Choice of venue might be very limited.

ollyk1

kakak1 wrote:

Choice of venue might be very limited.

As a punter this is something I'm concerned about.

I can envisage two or three clubs in Dublin spread around the city and not necessarily having poker as their main game. For those who get licences this will be good news but for those clubs that miss out and from the point of view of free market competition this could be very detremental to the poker scene.

5starpool

I brought this very topic up with one of the directors of the Fitz on Monday actually and he said he is still not sure how it will shape up in this regard, but I think the lobby group now is trying to get past record in the industry as a plus point when licences are being awarded, and that he hopes it won't be regulated in such a way that will allow the likes of the big industry names to come in and open Casinos here.

I think that having them in places like racecourses etc would be a ridiculous idea, as that would be very hard to get to for a lot ot people, would be very out of the way, and would only encourage people who currently have 1 interest in gambling (beit poker or horses) to embrace others, and this would be very irresponsible from a goverment perspective. I do think though that the restrictions on slot machines etc in this country would discourage the big name players to try and enter a regualted market, however, PP would be a candidate that would probably be interested even in the current market.

Whatever happens I really hope it does not diminish choice and quality, as this could spell the death knell to the industry before it really gets started.

ollyk1

5starpool wrote:

I think that having them in places like racecourses etc would be a ridiculous idea, as that would be very hard to get to for a lot ot people, would be very out of the way, and would only encourage people who currently have 1 interest in gambling (beit poker or horses) to embrace others, and this would be very irresponsible from a goverment perspective. I do think though that the restrictions on slot machines etc in this country would discourage the big name players to try and enter a regualted market, however, PP would be a candidate that would probably be interested even in the current market.

It might seem ridiculous based on how the market is currently setup Dom but if the Horse racing guys pitch this as a way of reducing or removing the necessity for grants from government by getting a higher spend from the punters on activities which they control rather than punters spending all their money with the bookies then I can see this and other arguments (and the influence behind the arguments) carrying a lot of weight.

For sure they wouldn't be interested in running too many poker tournies but having roulette and blackjack at the course and raking in cash from mug punters would certainly appeal to them and that would mean another few precious licences would be gone.

I doubt slots will get in here in a wholesale way but I think if you have PP and one or two others looking to open a casino based around their priorties then small independent clubs may also get squeezed by regulation and the need to meet what I am sure will be onerous nanny state criteria clubs like the Fitz and certainly smaller clubs around the country could come under serious pressure.

5starpool

They should ban horse and dog racing instead.

ollyk1

5starpool wrote:

They should ban horse and dog racing instead.

LOL Dom you are a hippy idealist at heart aren't you!!

careca

5starpool wrote:

They should ban horse and dog racing instead.

Boo. Wait til I have put all of Paddy Powers grandchildren through college first, only a few more to go.

I can see it going the way of the bookmakers to be honest. In Ireland 10/15 years ago most of the bookmakers were individually owned and independent of each other. Ok, they shared things like SPs from the track and that kind of thing, but once the bigger players came in (PP, Boyles, Lads) then they got muscled out. I could see the bigger casinos and I consider the Fitz to be one of them surviving but not sure about the smaller ones in rural towns (no offence meant to any of them).

for example if you go to say Sligo for a weekend and there are two casinos, one small local one and a big Paddy Power one, which one would you go to ? And I know you might say whichever has the best choice, but if you didn't know that, I'm sure you'd pick the brand you know.

5starpool

If they are going to severly limit the number of licences issued then it will be a bad thing as it will likely go to the places with the best connections and most money, and this is in no way a guarantee that it will be best for us. Also, too many licences would be a bad thing, so I think a 'baby bear' situation is called for.

Also, an addition to the above point. Everything I don't like such as horse racing, dog racing, ballet, opera, rap music, dance music and loads of other things too probably should be banned, and everying I like should be encouraged.

Edit: Ban opera, but leave classical music as this can be sooting and dramatic at times. Hope they are not under the same banner.

slegs

The Curragh is undergoing the start of a huge redevelopment including the Stand Hotel and I would say it would be shoo in for a Casino Licence. (I live 5 mins from the Curragh so i wont be complaining)

Note the government will most likely prefer less accessible sites like the Curragh exactly for the reason that they dont want to encourage passing trade. This fits with the model in other countries including the South Africa,US (outside Nevada and Atlantic City) and many European countries where Casinos are either a drive from the city or in the Suburbs.

The self funding element for the current heavily government backed HRI and Bord na gCon will be the deal sealer.

If you were the government who would you give a licence to first? Private bookmaker, entrepeneur or a semi state type company linked to gambling? No brainer

The only question is will there be enough licences to feed the demand from the bookmakers and currrent casino owners along with HRI/Bord na gCon
I would doubt not...if there are 5 licenced casinos in ireland when this comes in I will be surprised

30something

This is a good thread and needs some legal insight.

Don't forget there is also a legal difference between casinos and "card rooms". Take a look at the current definition of "illegal gaming" pasted directly from the act ....


"PART II GAMING

Unlawful gaming. 4. —(1) No person shall promote or assist in promoting or provide facilities for any kind of gaming—

( a ) in which by reason of the nature of the game, the chances of all the players, including the banker, are not equal, or

( b ) in which any portion of the stakes is retained by the promoter or is retained by the banker otherwise than as winnings on the result of the play, or

( c ) by means of any slot-machine not prohibited by section 10."

The word "stake" is defined in the Act thus:


"stake" includes any payment for the right to take part in a game and any other form of payment required to be made as a condition of taking part in the game but does not include a payment made solely for facilities provided for the playing of the game;

Paragraph (a) does not apply as chances are equal. Paragraph (c) obviously does not apply.

Regarding paragraph (b), it seems arguable that a poker tournament can avoid falling foul of the Act providing the "stake" (registration fee) is a payment made solely for facilities provided for the playing of the game. This of course can include "wages" for the dealers and the organisers.

Indeed, I presume "the powers that be" have already assumed that poker tournaments do not fall foul of the Act because the likes of the well-publicised Irish Open or recent EPT tourny in the Regency did not (as far as I am aware) obtain licences as required by the Act if the tourneys fall into the catagory of gaming as set out in Section 4.

Ergo, the various independant card clubs with no "club" (eg GJP organised end of Month Tourney in Drogheda) do not require a licence to operate such tourneys including their forthcoming Xmas festival.

It appears that the same logic can be applied to cash games. The "Rake" being "a payment made solely for facilities provided for the playing of the game".

I appreciate that the card rooms such as the Fitz make their real money from the cash-cows that are the roulette tables and thus want the licence when regulation occurs. However this does not mean that the enterprising individuals at GJP or Antes-Up (I think they do tourneys??) etc will be affected under the current law and where there is demand there will be supply.

In my view, post-regulation, Pub tourneys will not disappear, monthly tourneys will still be held in drogheda and the EPT will still be held in a Dublin hotel. Don't panic, everything will be okay

30something

oops, double post

hotspur

The casino regulation commission asked a prominent addiction specialist to advise it on aspects of problem gambling and socially responsible gambling practices, one thing he came out with was a suggestion that the casinos close at 1am (turbo tournies anyone?), I nearly hit him but luckily the recommendation didn't go down well anyway