Good Call / Bad Call???

bops

Sat for EPT in Regency (freezeout stage)
Blinds 200/400 ante 50 - 9 seats

Player in early position: Stack - 17k (Me ) - (UTG+1) rasies to 1400
Player is seen as playing tight and passive but does mix it up the odd time - he has pushed on a draw earlier, but has also pushed with the nuts (if thats of any use!)

...folded around to BB: 9k who make the call of the extra 1k.
He has played aggressively, had defended his big blind and has made some loose calls preflop - eg all in call with A8s

Flop: Ah 10h 2c
Pot: 3050

BB bets 800
I imediately raise it to 2700
BB thinks for short while and calls

Turn: 7d
Pot: 7450

BB checks quick
I think for a while, make a noticeable scan of his stack and check

River: Js

BB thinks for a few seconds and checks
I figure he has only 5.5 ish K left - I bet 4k (leaving me with about 9k and him roughly all in)

He thinks for a while - whilst stacking up 4k in chips (lots of little ones!)
He swoops them over the pot - but not in - looking for a read...anyway he thinks again for a while still looking at me and makes a reluctant call and shows A9

Well good call / bad call????

ianmc38

Depends whether he won the hand or not. If he won it nice call. If not bad call.

Ste05

What did you have?

Who cares if some other randomers call was good or not? What call are we talking about?

I certainly looks like his PF call was dodgy, as was the Flop re-raise call, but once he called the flop then he was committed to the river, especially after your turn check, that Js shouldn't have changed anything unless you had JJ.

We also don't know what sort of image he really had of you, or if he was paying attention at all. Were you really playing tight passive, you've already pushed at least twice, once with a draw and once with the nuts, doesn't sound too passive to me??

Silver-Tiger

Did You have a major busted draw i.e (kh jh) and are extremly frustrated that you missed everthing and he called.
Like ian said , this could be a good call depends on the outcome..

bops

What did you have?
Tell you later - it aint the point

Who cares if some other randomers call was good or not?
WTF does this mean?? - it you don't care - don't reply

What call are we talking about?
PreFlop Call
PostFlep Call of ReRiase
River Call of most of his stack

I certainly looks like his PF call was dodgy, as was the Flop re-raise call, but once he called the flop then he was committed to the river, especially after your turn check, that Js shouldn't have changed anything unless you had JJ.

You think he was pot committed?

We also don't know what sort of image he really had of you, or if he was paying attention at all. Were you really playing tight passive, you've already pushed at least twice, once with a draw and once with the nuts, doesn't sound too passive to me??

I was playing tight/passive since the end of the rebuy period as were most - everyone needed to make moves earlier to get some chips because it was a total crapshoot with only 1k starting stacks and half price rebuys and a half price double top-up!!


Thanks for the request for more info

bops

Silver-Tiger wrote:

Did You have a major busted draw i.e (kh jh) and are extremly frustrated that you missed everthing and he called.
Like ian said , this could be a good call depends on the outcome..

I was not on a flush or str8 draw

phantom_lord

bops wrote:

Well it a good call / bad call????

Against you, yes

Ste05

bops wrote:

What did you have?
Tell you later - it aint the point

OK...

bops wrote:

Who cares if some other randomers call was good or not?
WTF does this mean?? - it you don't care - don't reply

Well my point here was, it's hard to discuss what other people's play was like because we don't know what his mind set was, or what his image of you was like, maybe he'd played with you alot and knows your game better than you think. Maybe he was a donkey...

bops wrote:

What call are we talking about?
PreFlop Call
PostFlep Call of ReRiase
River Call of most of his stack

PF - dodgy.
Flop - dodgy
River - OK or Donkey (Villain dependant) - (see below).

bops wrote:

I certainly looks like his PF call was dodgy, as was the Flop re-raise call, but once he called the flop then he was committed to the river, especially after your turn check, that Js shouldn't have changed anything unless you had JJ.

You think he was pot committed?

I'm not talking about him being Pot committed, if he thought he was ahead of you on the flop when he called your re-raise, then he was probably still ahead now. By checking the turn it looks like you were drawing or were simply firing a continuation raise on the flop to try and take the hand away and gave up when you were called. Then when he checked again on the river showing weakness he gave you a chance to bluff off your chips. All flush draws missed, a better A would have more than likely bet the turn to protect from the flush, KK, QQ, would have checked the turn, so all he's really losing to is AA, JJ KQ and 1010, but again I'd say AA or 1010 would bet the turn so therefore, it looks like an OK call to me as only really JJ and KQ beats him now, and both are unlikely, and your range is alot wider than those specific holdings.

Alternatively he was just a donk thinking he has TP and so he should call....

bops

phantom_lord wrote:

Against you, yes

lol excellent point - funny thing was i asked him prior to the game does he read boards (he was sitting beside Gholi last time i saw him) - he said no! thank god

bops

Well my point here was, it's hard to discuss what other people's play was like because we don't know what his mind set was, or what his image of you was like, maybe he'd played with you alot and knows your game better than you think. Maybe he was a donkey...

We played toghether twice prior to this - both times I was well behaved!!
He was a good player imo - very aggressive tho

...By checking the turn it looks like you were drawing or were simply firing a continuation raise on the flop to try and take the hand away and gave up when you were called.

I put him on a weak A or the flush draw. I would often check the turn here with position and the best hand. If the flush comes I get out cheap - if it doesn't I call his bet on the river. I knew that he was capable of check-raising me all-in on a draw on the turn - i didn't want to commit at this stage - so I took the safe option. - is that such a bad thing?

Then when he checked again on the river showing weakness he gave you a chance to bluff off your chips. All flush draws missed, a better A would have more than likely bet the turn to protect from the flush, KK, QQ, would have checked the turn, so all he's really losing to is AA, JJ KQ and 1010, but again I'd say AA or 1010 would bet the turn so therefore, it looks like an OK call to me as only really JJ and KQ beats him now, and both are unlikely, and your range is alot wider than those specific holdings.

TBH my range here was about 88 to AJ

Alternatively he was just a donk thinking he has TP and so he should call....

Funny thing is he wasn't a donk - but the way he called was donkish if you get me

Ollieboy

When he call the raise on the flop you should have given the hand up, he was pot commit (yes I know it was only 1/3 of his stack) at that stage and was going to call you on the river.

The call preflop is not great, but maybe he thought you had a pair and if he hit his Ace it was a hand for him, maybe he was going card dead and this was the best hand he had seen in ages, I think the final call was a good one, as you push and he felt you were trying to push him off the pot, this would have been help by your check on the turn, if you had a big ace, you would have bet at that stage to find out if it was still good and also to extract as much from him as possible, so on the river he was 80% sure his ace was good. The call on the river is a easy enough call as you would have protect any big ace with a flush draw out there also.

The only reason you would bet on the river, is if you felt he miss his flush, but I think he would have open push with a flush draw on the flop.

Summary, call preflop not great, but not the worst, the call on the flop was worst, as you told him you had a big hand and was willing to play for his whole stack, the call on the river is very good call.

Ollieboy

bops wrote:

I put him on a weak A or the flush draw. I would often check the turn here with position and the best hand. If the flush comes I get out cheap - if it doesn't I call his bet on the river. I knew that he was capable of check-raising me all-in on a draw on the turn - i didn't want to commit at this stage - so I took the safe option. - is that such a bad thing?

Yes, that is a terrbile idea, you should always protect your hand on the flop and turn if your ahead and make him pay for his draws, if he outdraws you thats different and just bad luck, but letting him do it cheap is really bad. Also, most good players wont pay to draw on the turn if the bet is pot size or even 1/2 the pot

Ste05

I put him on a weak A or the flush draw. I would often check the turn here with position and the best hand. If the flush comes I get out cheap - if it doesn't I call his bet on the river. I knew that he was capable of check-raising me all-in on a draw on the turn - i didn't want to commit at this stage - so I took the safe option. - is that such a bad thing?

It's not really great if you actually had a good A or trips here, because if he does have a flush draw then he's not going to commit chips on the river unless he outdraws you (or he decides to try a bluff), and if he has a second best hand, then you should be getting all his money in ASAP,

IMO this is actually the more dangerous option (when you have a good hand - by increasing the chances of being outdrawn and reducing possible winnings) because in this case because of the way the hand has gone, PF raise and a call, then on the flop, it was bet, raise, call. With an A high, flushing board and all this action, a decent A or Trips should nearly always bet this turn. A flush draw can peel off a free card if offered, or represent trips/ big A with a big semi-bluff.

Then as the river fell, it is highly unlikely to have helped you.

TBH my range here was about 88 to AJ

I certainly wouldn't have you on this range when the turn was checked. I'd have you firmly on a draw, (taking a free card - seeing as you were playing passively) or an under pair to the A (hoping to get to a cheap showdown)

Funny thing is he wasn't a donk - but the way he called was donkish if you get me

Well he'd look pretty stupid if he was wrong.

bops

I had KK :eek: :mad: :rolleyes:

I knew he'd call the PF raise with any 2 cards on the BB
I knew he'd bet out at the flop also

When he called the reraise (alarm bells) as I said I put him on a weak A or a Flush draw -
so i checked the turn - but tried to make it obvious that I had a hand by very clearly checking his stack size at this point.

I guessed that if the flush hit the board i'd give up but I thougt a good bet here would get him off a weak A - it was basically his tourney on the line if he makes a loosing call.

If he has a better hand than a weak A i guess he bets the river and i walk away.

I agree with you both that the check on the turn is poor - but I guessed he would call here quicker with a weak A here than on the river.

Note: after my raise here being called and an A on the board - I would have folded immediately to any of the other players at the table


so i suppose good call him
bad play me

bops

it's just interesting that since i didn't put my hand up 'till now - i wasn't abused by 20 boardsters in 10 minutes like BigCityBanker was earlier for a similar play :rolleyes:

Many thanks for your sound advice ste and ollie - btw i've recently seen boycie! playin high stake cash tables on tribeca - it aint you - is it?? - didn't think it was your cuppa tea!

Ollieboy

bops wrote:

it's just interesting that since i didn't put my hand up 'till now - i wasn't abused by 20 boardsters in 10 minutes like BigCityBanker was earlier for a similar play :rolleyes:

Many thanks for your sound advice ste and ollie - btw i've recently seen boycie! playin high stake cash tables on tribeca - it aint you - is it?? - didn't think it was your cuppa tea!

No not me, I've seen a few people use boycie and ollieboy etc recently, I'm not much of a cash player, cant put up with all the fish....lol

ul on the hand...

Ste05

bops wrote:

it's just interesting that since i didn't put my hand up 'till now - i wasn't abused by 20 boardsters in 10 minutes like BigCityBanker was earlier for a similar play :rolleyes:

Many thanks for your sound advice ste and ollie - btw i've recently seen boycie! playin high stake cash tables on tribeca - it aint you - is it?? - didn't think it was your cuppa tea!

No probs, except this is quite a bit different to BigCityBanker's hand, and TBH I don't think there would have been any abuse, just pointing out that it was just one bad move - i.e. the River bet, turning a hand with showdown value into a bluff, you're hand had good show down value and hence why you should have just checked the river.

Now get your finger out and play in the BCOOP tonight so we can see the skillz in action...

DapperGent

bops wrote:

but tried to make it obvious that I had a hand by very clearly checking his stack size at this point.

I'm bewildered as to how this is supposed to put the firghteners on someone.

After your continuation bet is called on the flop, I think you should seeth silently and check it down or maybe push the turn though I don't really like that. It sucks when you make a raise with KK and see an Ace high flop, it's pretty sick the amount of times I've seen people tilt off all or most of their chips to an Ace-rag donk in that situation and done it myself. It's something that people are somehow less inclined to do with QQ, JJ or TT even though they're all bluffs now as well.

gosplan

bops wrote:

tried to make it obvious that I had a hand by very clearly checking his stack size at this point.

I've had this done to me a few times and IMO it's one of the most obvious attempts to show strength there is. I'm not knocking you personally, maybe you do it well and you do have a history with this guy.

Whenever anyone asks for a count of my chips or is obviously trying to be seen counting them and then they check I'd say it's +EV to push.

Obviously once this happens once with a good player it's all different the next time around but you know what I mean.

Ollieboy

gosplan wrote:

I've had this done to me a few times and IMO it's one of the most obvious attempts to show strength there is. I'm not knocking you personally, maybe you do it well and you do have a history with this guy.

Whenever anyone asks for a count of my chips or is obviously trying to be seen counting them and then they check I'd say it's +EV to push.

Obviously once this happens once with a good player it's all different the next time around but you know what I mean.

Have to aggree with this, checking or asking someone how many chips they have, is a more a sign of weakness speacially if you do it on the turn and than check, its like telling the person how much its going to cost to get you off this hand and make a tough decision and how much a mistake is going to cost me.

Also, you should really know everyones stack size before a hand starts.

bops

All completely valid points above - just a couple of notes:
I attempted to play it like - "ah you've only a few k left - i'll let you bluff it off on the river..." I was really considering putting him all in here - maybe this is where I lost the hand - dunno tbh - it was probably the move to push here?

Also i knew roughtly what everone had stackwise - the thing was he was doing an "andy black" on it and had lots and lots of 25 chips!!

...anyway the bottom line is good advice ye 3 and i wont ask for counts in future unless i have the nuts

Ollieboy

bops wrote:

All completely valid points above - just a couple of notes:
I attempted to play it like - "ah you've only a few k left - i'll let you bluff it off on the river..." I was really considering putting him all in here - maybe this is where I lost the hand - dunno tbh - it was probably the move to push here?

I wonder if a push here would have work, I think it would as your now telling him you have a big ace and willing to play for his stack with your strong hand, I think he would have found it hard to call that sort of aggression. Even a solid bet here might have got him of the hand.

Another good point, does having loads of small chips show more strenght as a stack or does having less bigger chips look better.

I always go for a mix, having a good size stack, but making it as easy as possible for me to see what I have and to count it out quickly if I need, I dont mind people knowing how many chips I have, once I keep them.

Goodluck2me

Ollieboy wrote:

Another good point, does having loads of small chips show more strenght as a stack or does having less bigger chips look better.

I always go for a mix, having a good size stack, but making it as easy as possible for me to see what I have and to count it out quickly if I need, I dont mind people knowing how many chips I have, once I keep them.

def having lots of smaller chips. marcel luske never gave out change from his stack and wouldnt let the dealers chip up his chips until they were completely out of play. it certainly looks better. althought i dont min dhaving that porblem